Should the Brewers extend Weeks? [Latest: Won't negotiate once Spring Training starts]

[logan82]

I think re-signing Greinke and Marcum is much more important.

 

Maybe, but how realistic is it that Greinke will resign especially if our offense takes a big hit which it is almost guaranteed to if both Weeks and Fielder leave. He only waived he no trade clause because he knew the offense would be good. Greinke has made it very clear that he prefers to play on a good team. I personally thing Fielder and Greinke are gone regardless.

[Warning Track Power]

I do not know what they are offering Rickie. However, we do know they are offering him $4.85MM for 2011 which is low for a player of his caliber. Yes it may be arbitration gamesmanship. But as an organization, with the arbitration number offered, the Brewers front office is telling me they believe Corey Hart is worth almost double 3yrs/$26.5MM

 

I don't view it like that at all. The Brewers are doing exactly what they should be doing. Why overpay for him if you don't have to? I would love for him to re-sign too, but I think re-signing Greinke and Marcum is much more important. Offense can be replaced much easier than pitching. If we can keep Greinke, Marcum, and Gallardo together for 5 more years this team will be successful for 5 more years. We are going to take a hit offensively when Fielder leaves, there's no doubt. And we'd take another hit if Weeks leaves. BUT chances are better than not that the defense would improve dramatically if those two leave. Also, there's always free agency. Derek Lee will be available next offseason. I'm sure you can upgrade shortstop and center field. Gamel will fit in somewhere. SF showed that you can win with good pitching and average hitting. We may need to copy that model for awhile, but if you re-sign Marcum and Greinke and if Rogers, Rivas, Heckathorn, Peralta, and/or Scarpetta live up to their potential we could have a very good pitching staff for a number of years. No sense in budgeting yourself out of other players by paying Weeks substantially more than he is worth.

And if these guys develop we have 3 stud pitchers in Marcum, Gallardo and Greinke with cheap options to fill the rest of the rotation. Even if paying Rickie qualifies as an overspend, we still need offense! Additionally, we will likely have relatively inexpensive players at SS, CF and C and we all seem to agree that having a cheap bullpen works for the Brewers.

 

I don't see why we can't have Corey and Rickie for cheaper than we were willing to pay Prince. I'm not saying over 5 years they should both equal the $100MM. I'm saying that I would much rather have Corey and Rickie making a combined $20MM per year over the next 5 than spend that money on Prince. Apparently we have the money for that. And like Logan said, Greinke is as good as gone after 2012 if Rickie joins Prince in leaving and we are left with Farris and Gamel as replacments.

[RockCoCougars]

I think a 4 year/ $40 million dollar extension wouldn't be out of line for Weeks. Give him his $7 million this year, and this would average out to $11 per over the next three- that sort of money will put him right in the Utley and Uggla range. Yes, he's missed a lot of games with wrist problems, but career ending wrist injuries have to be fairly uncommon- I can't recall any in a non-contact sport such as baseball. Frankly, I think Weeks is becoming this generation's Ignitor, and as much as I like Prince, I think he'd be easier to replace than Rickie. For evidence of this, all you have to do is look at how things fell apart in '09 after he went down. He's just hitting his prime at 28, and I think that he has the potential to be scary good.

 

All indications are that he's a hard worker and he wants to stay in Milwaukee, so I'm not sure why the Brewers seem to be playing hardball with the rhetoric from Ash and the lowball offer. In the end, they may save a couple of million bucks in the arbitration system, but is that really worth the risk of poisoning the relationship with Weeks? I think that this needs to get done before Opening Day if it's going to happen, because I think if he's not locked in and has another big year- which I think he will, someone will throw crazy money at him. Look at what guys like Werth, Beltre and even Victor Martinez got.

[clancyphile]

I think a 4 year/ $40 million dollar extension wouldn't be out of line for Weeks. Give him his $7 million this year, and this would average out to $11 per over the next three- that sort of money will put him right in the Utley and Uggla range. Yes, he's missed a lot of games with wrist problems, but career ending wrist injuries have to be fairly uncommon- I can't recall any in a non-contact sport such as baseball. Frankly, I think Weeks is becoming this generation's Ignitor, and as much as I like Prince, I think he'd be easier to replace than Rickie. For evidence of this, all you have to do is look at how things fell apart in '09 after he went down. He's just hitting his prime at 28, and I think that he has the potential to be scary good.

 

All indications are that he's a hard worker and he wants to stay in Milwaukee, so I'm not sure why the Brewers seem to be playing hardball with the rhetoric from Ash and the lowball offer. In the end, they may save a couple of million bucks in the arbitration system, but is that really worth the risk of poisoning the relationship with Weeks? I think that this needs to get done before Opening Day if it's going to happen, because I think if he's not locked in and has another big year- which I think he will, someone will throw crazy money at him. Look at what guys like Werth, Beltre and even Victor Martinez got.

I agree. If Prince is all but certainly gone, then the Brewers need to keep Weeks. That was Gord Ash thinking?

[RobDeer 45]

Not sure who said it but the comment was made that the Brewers should have signed him last year at this time. Sure that easy to say now but before last year he hadn't played a full season. You would have to have a crystal ball or huge juevos to sign a guy to a big extension that has had multiple wrist surgeries. I don't really think that's a fair statement unless the contract was all incentives.

[kramnoj]

. But as an organization, with the arbitration number offered, the Brewers front office is telling me they believe Corey Hart is worth almost double 3yrs/$26.5MM (Average annual salary approximately $9MM. Hart's 2011 salary is $6.5MM) then Rickie Weeks in 2011.

 

This isn't a valid comparison. You are comparing salaries in free agency years to an arbitration offer.

 

No. If that's the holdup, then I agree with you.

 

Why do you have any reason to believe this isn't the holdup? Sure, we can't trust everything a person in a front office says completely, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Weeks agent waited until after Uggla got his deal before exchanging offers.

 

My pure speculation is that I do not believe that is what is holding up this deal and the Corey Hart contract is really the baseline Weeks is looking at for his extension.

 

If all you have is speculation, you are throwing out some pessimistic words out there: sickens, ridiculous, absurd.

 

Edit

 

Yes, he's missed a lot of games with wrist problems, but career ending wrist injuries have to be fairly uncommon-

 

I don't think I've seen anybody say that the concern with the wrists is career ending. It's that if you pay a guy $62M, you have the expectation that he will play in an average number of games. If he misses 1/3 of the games played because of injuries, your team has spent money on production it's not getting. And even if you get insurance for the dollars spent, your policy doesn't replace the production lost.

[CheezWizHed]

Even if it isn't career ending, wrist injuries can quickly sap power and bat speed. Turning a good player into average or worse.

[RockCoCougars]

Not sure who said it but the comment was made that the Brewers should have signed him last year at this time. Sure that easy to say now but before last year he hadn't played a full season. You would have to have a crystal ball or huge juevos to sign a guy to a big extension that has had multiple wrist surgeries. I don't really think that's a fair statement unless the contract was all incentives.

I did. No crystal ball (I'm wrong about as often as I am right), but check page 2. As far as his wrists go, there is a risk- but the fact is, that the injury happened once to each wrist, not to the same one multiple times... and the first one that was 'fixed' has held up for nearly five years.

 

All I know is that Rickie's market value has probably increased by nearly 50% since last year. Another big season, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it go up almost 50% from where it is now. Like I said, if they want to keep him, they had best move now.....I'm sure everybody including Weeks' agent noticed what Beltre and Werth got.

%

[kramnoj]

I'm sure everybody including Weeks' agent noticed what Beltre and Werth got.

 

Beltre is the best or one of the best defensive 3B in the league. Weeks projects to be basically average defensively.

 

It's possible that Weeks may get signed by some desperate team after this season, but there's no history of teams paying 2B that much money.

[RockCoCougars]

Beltre is also at least 31 years old, and has really only had two great seasons at the plate- both coincidentally enough in contract walk seasons. Going further, as we've seen with any proposals that relate to dealing either McGehee or Gamel, there seems to be a surplus of 3rd basemen right now. I guess if Weeks were to leave, the Brewers could move McGehee to 2nd to open up 3rd for Gamel, so maybe that's what they are thinking. If that's the case, I think they are severely underestimating the value of Weeks to the team.

[Warning Track Power]

WTP: No. If that's the holdup, then I agree with you.

 

KRAMNOJ: Why do you have any reason to believe this isn't the holdup? Sure, we can't trust everything a person in a front office says completely, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Weeks agent waited until after Uggla got his deal before exchanging offers.

RESPONSE: Not trying to get into a battle with you over this but do you know they waited until after Uggla got his deal before they exchanged offers? The first reports I heard regarding talks of an extension came was at the Winter Meetings when Melvin said he spoke with Genske or well before Uggla got his deal. Do you think they just said "hey Rickie interested in an extension" and then dropped the conversation? I'm guessing they at least talked about some parameters of an extension i.e. years, salary.

 

WTP: But as an organization, with the arbitration number offered, the Brewers front office is telling me they believe Corey Hart is worth almost double 3yrs/$26.5MM (Average annual salary approximately $9MM. Hart's 2011 salary is $6.5MM) then Rickie Weeks in 2011.

 

KRAMNOJ: This isn't a valid comparison. You are comparing salaries in free agency years to an arbitration offer.

 

RESPONSE: You left out me mentioning the gamesmanship of arbitration hearing. I alluded to this in my previous post.

 

WTP: POINT #3: My pure speculation is that I do not believe that is what is holding up this deal and the Corey Hart contract is really the baseline Weeks is looking at for his extension.

 

KRAMNOJ: If all you have is speculation, you are throwing out some pessimistic words out there: sickens, ridiculous, absurd

 

RESPONSE: All you have is speculation as well. How do you know Rickie is asking for Uggla's deal ($12.5MM average per season) when he asked for $7.2MM in arbitration? I don't think offering a lowball salary of $4.85MM to Rickie is the right way to start of negotiations for an extension. As the extension talks have now been shelved in favor of a 1 year deal, I feel sickens, ridiculous, absurd is quite fair to use in this situation where we lowball a player who wants to play in Milwaukee.

[TooLiveBrew]

I feel sickens, ridiculous, absurd is quite fair to use in this

situation where we lowball a player who wants to play in Milwaukee.

 

Brewerfan posters are never allowed to use anything resembling strong adjectives or descriptive verbs if kramnoj has anything to say about it!

[topper09er]

Starting lineup in game 1 for WS champs Giants:

 

1 Andres Torres CF

2 Freddy Sanchez 2B

3 Buster Posey C

4 Pat Burrell LF

5 Cody Ross RF

6 Aubrey Huff 1B

7 Juan Uribe 3B

8 Edgar Renteria SS

9 Tim Lincecum P

 

How is that any different from:

1. Gomez/someone else CF

2. Hart RF

3. Braun LF

4. Gamel 1B

5. McGehee 3B

6. Lucroy C

7. Any SS

8. Any 2B

9. Zach Grienke P

 

That lineup in 2012 with Marcum and Gallardo is just as good as the Giants

If you put Weeks at the top of the lineup and replace Marcum with Narveson you are worse off.

 

I want to keep Rickie, but it wont be a franchise killer if we lose him.

[danzig6767]

Starting lineup in game 1 for WS champs Giants:

 

1 Andres Torres CF

2 Freddy Sanchez 2B

3 Buster Posey C

4 Pat Burrell LF

5 Cody Ross RF

6 Aubrey Huff 1B

7 Juan Uribe 3B

8 Edgar Renteria SS

9 Tim Lincecum P

 

How is that any different from:

1. Gomez/someone else CF

2. Hart RF

3. Braun LF

4. Gamel 1B

5. McGehee 3B

6. Lucroy C

7. Any SS

8. Any 2B

9. Zach Grienke P

 

That lineup in 2012 with Marcum and Gallardo is just as good as the Giants

If you put Weeks at the top of the lineup and replace Marcum with Narveson you are worse off.

 

I want to keep Rickie, but it wont be a franchise killer if we lose him.

You'd honestly consider batting Gomez in the leadoff spot even though he yearly carries a sub-.300 OBP?

[splitterpfj]

This is a tough situation. The team has to look at Rickie's injuries when making an offer, and of course, Rickie's agents are going to point to last season and negotiate from there. I don't know what's going to happen, but my fear is, Rickie has another big year, and someone buys him right out of here.

 

I can't say I disagree with the team's position to this point, but no matter how you slice it, this is playing with fire. If you give Rickie the big deal and he has another significant injury...that's brutal. If you don't, and he matches last year...you have a very real chance of losing him to a team with deeper pockets.

 

Yes, I have heard more on the situation, but it pretty much matches what has been reported publicly...I don't sense animosity in the situation, but the two sides just haven't been on the same page to this point on a long-term deal.

[logan82]

Starting lineup in game 1 for WS champs Giants:

 

1 Andres Torres CF

2 Freddy Sanchez 2B

3 Buster Posey C

4 Pat Burrell LF

5 Cody Ross RF

6 Aubrey Huff 1B

7 Juan Uribe 3B

8 Edgar Renteria SS

9 Tim Lincecum P

 

How is that any different from:

1. Gomez/someone else CF

2. Hart RF

3. Braun LF

4. Gamel 1B

5. McGehee 3B

6. Lucroy C

7. Any SS

8. Any 2B

9. Zach Grienke P

 

That lineup in 2012 with Marcum and Gallardo is just as good as the Giants

If you put Weeks at the top of the lineup and replace Marcum with Narveson you are worse off.

 

I want to keep Rickie, but it wont be a franchise killer if we lose him.

Marcum is with us through 2012 even if Weeks signs. Have you taken park factors into consideration when comparing those 2 lineups?

 

[kramnoj]

Not trying to get into a battle with you over this but do you know they waited until after Uggla got his deal before they exchanged offers?

 

There were reports early in the off-season that the Brewers wanted to look at extending Weeks. Based on information that we have, it doesn't look like Weeks agent got serious about negotiating until Uggla got his deal.

 

You left out me mentioning the gamesmanship of arbitration hearing. I alluded to this in my previous post.

 

The Brewers arbitration offer shouldn't be compared to a salary for someone in their post-arbitration years. It has nothing to do with gamesmanship, and is based on the rules of arbitration. It seems to be commonly accepted that a player in their last year of arbitration should get about 80% of their market value. The Brewers wouldn't have made that offer if they didn't think they had evidence to support their proposed value. Now less than $5M would be less than 80% of the market value that Weeks has if 2010 represents his true talent going forward. However, after looking at career, the Brewers offer doesn't seem completely out of line.

 

All you have is speculation as well.

 

Not completely true. We have Ash's statements regarding Uggla's contract, and I have my observation based on reporting of events.

 

How do you know Rickie is asking for Uggla's deal ($12.5MM average per season) when he asked for $7.2MM in arbitration?

 

Because arbitration and free agency are different, and it can be difficult to make direct comparisons. Weeks agent would have presumably based Weeks price on players he found to be comparable. He may feel Weeks market value is $12M, but if there isn't enough precedence to support that, he's not going to present it in arbitration. On the other hand, free agency is much more of an open market, and he can ask for whatever he feels Weeks is worth.

 

As the extension talks have now been shelved in favor of a 1 year deal, I feel sickens, ridiculous, absurd is quite fair to use in this situation where we lowball a player who wants to play in Milwaukee.

 

If you compare Weeks history with all players that are comparable to him, what is an appropriate arbitration offer? What players are you comparing him to to reach that number? You yourself said that you don't want Weeks signed to an Uggla deal. Why would you want to feel sick before you have all the relevant information?

 

Brewerfan posters are never allowed to use anything resembling strong adjectives or descriptive verbs if kramnoj has anything to say about it!

 

Your sarcasm escapes me. I'm in favor of strong language, but I also think it should be backed up by logic or reason. If there was nothing but emotional posts that had no basis, I don't really see the point of discussion. People might as well just start their own blog or tweet their reactions.

[monty57]

Two quick points:

 

First, Weeks was only paid $2+MM last year in year 2 of arby due to his past injuries & performance. From my limited knowledge of arbitration values, previous years' salaries are pretty important in determining following years' salaries. The Brewers' offer would be somewhere around an 80% raise from year 2 to year 3. Plus, it's the initial offer, and the Brewers generally seem to settle somewhere at the mid-point (around $5-6MM), so it's not like it's an embarassing lowbal offer like some are making it out to be. From McCalvy's article, it sounds like the Brewers' worry of coming to a one-year deal is more with Loe than with Weeks. I'd guess that they'll settle in to a 1-year $5-6MM deal and then attempt to build a longer-term deal off of this first year.

 

Second, if Weeks and Fielder did walk, along with Betancourt and $4MM or so in buyouts (Hoffman, Suppan, etc) being off the books, we'd have plenty of money to find someone else for the offense. I've mentioned it before, but there are a lot of moving parts in baseball, so we certainly can't assume that losing Fielder and Weeks means that they'll be replaced by Gamel and Farris. Maybe we make a trade, or maybe we sign Jimmy Rollins or Jose Reyes to play SS. If we had one of them leading off, his upgrade over Betancourt would surely negate the loss in value from Weeks to Farris. There are so many variables that making a prediction of how bad our lineup would be without Weeks and Fielder is a bit premature.

 

That said, I would like to see the Brewers come to terms with Weeks, but I'm with the group that would rather sign Greinke and Marcum (if that's possible). If Weeks is indeed trying to become the highest paid 2B in MLB history, than I think it's in the best interest of the Brewers to let him walk. He's had a good season and a half of MLB baseball under his belt, so I think he's asking too much if he thinks he should get that contract.

[RockCoCougars]

Second, if Weeks and Fielder did walk, along with Betancourt and $4MM or so in buyouts (Hoffman, Suppan, etc) being off the books, we'd have plenty of money to find someone else for the offense.

 

I agree with you in theory, but the Brewers history of signing 'name' free agents from other teams is pretty dismal. You have to overpay guys to get them to come to Milwaukee, and generally the results have been brutal. Look at how much guys like Werth and Beltre received (I actually think those two deals hurt negotiations more than the Uggla deal). Going further, a trade for a big salary may not be viable because of all the young guys the team has already dealt this off-season. I think it's in the Brewers best interests to keep as much 'home talent' as possible, before they file for free agency. As for Weeks, if he is seeking something like Uggla received, that's too much....however, I'd be willing to give him a four year deal up to $40 million, which is quite a bit more than Corey Hart got.

[1992casey]

You'd honestly consider batting Gomez in the leadoff spot even though he yearly carries a sub-.300 OBP?

 

topper09er was trying to draw a comparison to the Giants. If he were actually suggesting that the Brewers use that lineup, he'd have used the lineup thread. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[logan82]

monty57 wrote:

That said, I would like to see the Brewers come to terms with Weeks, but I'm with the group that would rather sign Greinke and Marcum (if that's possible). If Weeks is indeed trying to become the highest paid 2B in MLB history, than I think it's in the best interest of the Brewers to let him walk. He's had a good season and a half of MLB baseball under his belt, so I think he's asking too much if he thinks he should get that contract.

I think everybody would rather have Greinke and Marcum instead of Weeks. Unfortunately Greinke will likely cost a boatload of money. Think CC or Lee money as a starting point. That is not within our budget unless something pretty drastic happens with revenue sharing. Greinke, like Fielder, is not a realistic target right now. By comparison Weeks would only get half as much money even as the highest paid 2B.

[Patrick425]

logan3825[/b]]

monty57[/b] wrote:[/b]

That said, I would like to see the Brewers come to terms with Weeks, but I'm with the group that would rather sign Greinke and Marcum (if that's possible). If Weeks is indeed trying to become the highest paid 2B in MLB history, than I think it's in the best interest of the Brewers to let him walk. He's had a good season and a half of MLB baseball under his belt, so I think he's asking too much if he thinks he should get that contract.

I think everybody would rather have Greinke and Marcum instead of Weeks. Unfortunately Greinke will likely cost a boatload of money. Think CC or Lee money as a starting point. That is not within our budget unless something pretty drastic happens with revenue sharing. Greinke, like Fielder, is not a realistic target right now. By comparison Weeks would only get half as much money even as the highest paid 2B.

Uh..no, not everybody. I would rather have a combination of Greinke and Weeks or Marcum and Weeks (if it's not possible for the Brewers to sign all three). Judging from earlier comments in this thread (or possibly it was another thread?), I'm not the only one that feels this way.

 

edit: The previous discussion about this was in the Dan Uggla thread. Starts around post 15. I think post 21 and 24 along with a few others also agree that they would like to see Weeks extended, even if that means not being able to extend Marcum.

 

[RockCoCougars]

logan3825]I think everybody would rather have Greinke and Marcum instead of Weeks. Unfortunately Greinke will likely cost a boatload of money. Think CC or Lee money as a starting point. That is not within our budget unless something pretty drastic happens with revenue sharing. Greinke, like Fielder, is not a realistic target right now. By comparison Weeks would only get half as much money even as the highest paid 2B.

I'm not willing to write off the odds of locking in Greinke quite yet. However, I think that there's a one year window to do so. Best case, he pitches well this season, enjoys Milwaukee and fits well with the team....and the Brewers go deep in the playoffs with the accompanying CC-type man-love and goodwill for him. If this happens, there will be some 'open money' for 2013, (even factoring in big raises due Braun, Gallardo, Hart, McGehee and hopefully Weeks) with guys like almost assuredly Prince, and Wolf, Hawkins and the buyouts coming off the books. There should be enough to squeeze a substantial raise in over the $13.5 million (somewhere in the $20-$25 million range) that Greinke is currently on the books for if the team chooses to do so.

[endaround]

I actually want nothing to do with a Marcum extension unless for some reason if comes in far below market value.

[monty57]

I don't want to turn this into a Greinke thread, but he doesn't seem to want to pitch in a big market, which seriously limits his FA value. I think we could lock him up, but those who have mentioned his desire to pitch for what he perceives to be a winning team have a good point. If he knows we're losing Fielder and Weeks, he may not want to sign an extension.

 

Back to Weeks, I think he'll be a good player going forward, but he only has about 1.5 years of really good baseball at the MLB level. To me, that's not enough to be paid like the best 2B in the history of the game. I like the concept of getting him locked up, and I was one that was arguing for extending him prior to last season, when he probably could have been locked up relatively cheaply. I think it is important for the Brewers to get at least two of Weeks, Marcum and Greinke signed, and it appears that they are making a shot at getting a deal done with Weeks. If they find that they are too far apart to make a deal, then I really hope they quickly turn their attention to extending the two pitchers.