Hart to nationals?

[TooLiveBrew]

we're talking about a guy who put up a .840-ish OPS when he was starting at 3rd last year(small sample size) and a .760 OPS overall while being severely jerked around.

 

And the overall OPS was basically identical to league-avg. for 3Bmen. Regular playing time like a top prospect should('ve) recieve(d)? All-Star caliber offense. Jerked-around playing time? League-avg. offense. Sounds good to me.

[TheCrew]

Gamel struck out way too much when he was up last year - 54 k's in 128 AB's is as bad as it gets.

 

Whether or not that is a result of being 'jerked around' by the organization is debatable. FWIW I think that's a bit overblown by some on here - he certainly didn't get enough AB's while he was up last year, but some make it seem like he sat for months at a time.... bottom line is, he put up a sub .250 avg and struck out at an alarming rate, he didn't deserve more AB's and probably should have been sent back to the minors after the interleague games if he wasn't going to play everyday.

[HiAndTight]

we're talking about a guy who put up a .840-ish OPS when he was starting at 3rd last year(small sample size) and a .760 OPS overall while being severely jerked around.

 

And the overall OPS was basically identical to league-avg. for 3Bmen. Regular playing time like a top prospect should('ve) recieve(d)? All-Star caliber offense. Jerked-around playing time? League-avg. offense. Sounds good to me.

And it goes beyond the actual #'s, if ever there was a player who passes the "eye test" more than Gamel, I don't know who it is. Maybe it's just me, but I'm absolutely infatuated with him. I see him as having an ideal LH'ed stroke spraying line drives from gap to gap, hitting for power, staying in vs lefties like no young left hander that I've ever seen us bring up.

 

Had you not heard a word about his defensive struggles in the minors, you'd say his defense was average to well above average.

Had you not heard a word about his offensive prowess, you'd have likely seen a guy with a picture perfect approach and short, compact, swing at the plate who stays in the zone long.

 

Those who's arguments are, "He's no sure thing while McGehee is", I just vehemently disagree with that. Nobody is a sure thing, but this suggests you don't go with prospects as they're almost NEVER a sure thing with a few exceptions like Strasburg...but again, Mike Prior anyone? Not far behind coming out, and quite possibly equally regarded at the time of the draft.

 

The next generation of stars come from these "no sure things". And the next generation of disappointments come from these 27 year old-career year types who vastly exceed minor league expectations. Not say this is black and white, but it needs to be kept in mind. As I've said, if Gamel and McGehee both get to play 450 games in the following 3 years, I'd bet every dollar that Gamel posts hither BA, high OBP, hits more HR's and carries a higher OBP. I'm THAT certain he's going to be a stud. Notthat Casey's anything to sneeze at, just think with Gamel AND Taylor Green(another guy I like a great deal) and McGehee's high value, it might b e time to make a move on Casey.

 

 

Which is getting a bit off topic from Corey Hart I understand.

[Boisebrewer]

Anyone else just hear that there is a scout from the Nationals in the stands looking at possible outfielders?

[logan82]

Gamel struck out way too much when he was up last year - 54 k's in 128

AB's is as bad as it gets.

 

Whether or not that is a result of being 'jerked around' by the

organization is debatable. FWIW I think that's a bit overblown by some

on here - he certainly didn't get enough AB's while he was up last year,

but some make it seem like he sat for months at a time.... bottom line

is, he put up a sub .250 avg and struck out at an alarming rate, he

didn't deserve more AB's and probably should have been sent back to the

minors after the interleague games if he wasn't going to play everyday.

Gamel was up for approx 95 days last year which I would guess to be about 81ish games. 148 PA over that time period is pretty pathetic. It is less than a start every other game. It isn't overblown. He was jerked around and now has a year of service time during which time we got about a month and a half worth of PA out of him.

 

BA and strikeouts. You will not win hearts and minds with those stats here.

 

I agree with the bolded part.

[TooLiveBrew]

Anyone else just hear that there is a scout from the Nationals in the stands looking at possible outfielders?

No -- but this is certainly intriguing. STRASBURG FOR HART DO IT NOW MELVIN

[TheCrew07]

ha, if Doug would manage that I'd give him a lifetime contract.

[HiAndTight]

Gamel struck out way too much when he was up last year - 54 k's in 128 AB's is as bad as it gets.

 

Whether or not that is a result of being 'jerked around' by the organization is debatable. FWIW I think that's a bit overblown by some on here - he certainly didn't get enough AB's while he was up last year, but some make it seem like he sat for months at a time.... bottom line is, he put up a sub .250 avg and struck out at an alarming rate, he didn't deserve more AB's and probably should have been sent back to the minors after the interleague games if he wasn't going to play everyday.

And yet....he STILL posted a league average OPS and put up fantastic numbers when he was actually in the starting lineup at 3rd.

 

Now I don't play a whole lot of weight on those numbers. I, as I said, place far more on what I saw which was incredibly impressive to me. However what the numbers pretty easily dismiss is this nonsense that he was somehow a failure last year.

 

The only reason he should have been sent back to the minors is because the Brewers chose to screw around with one of the cornerstones of their franchise rather than play him. His PLAY didn't dictate he should be sent down, his lack of play dictated he should be sent down.

 

Two more points. First, I couldn't care less how many times a guy strikes out in his first taste of the big leagues, especially when they came in the form that Gamel's came. In large part the result of a backward K for taking a close pitch. He'll learn. And that overwhelming LACK of holes in his swing(not that there aren't any) assuage my concerns over long term issues.

 

And again, his OPS was far, far, far more significant to me than BA. I'll tell ya what, I'll take a Ryan Howard type player on my team anyday, and he could easily give you 200 K's and a .250 BA. Those two stats don't tell me nearly enough.

[TheCrew]

And yet....he STILL posted a league average OPS and put up fantastic numbers when he was actually in the starting lineup at 3rd.

 

Now I don't play a whole lot of weight on those numbers. I, as I said, place far more on what I saw which was incredibly impressive to me. However what the numbers pretty easily dismiss is this nonsense that he was somehow a failure last year.

 

The only reason he should have been sent back to the minors is because the Brewers chose to screw around with one of the cornerstones of their franchise rather than play him. His PLAY didn't dictate he should be sent down, his lack of play dictated he should be sent down.

 

Two more points. First, I couldn't care less how many times a guy strikes out in his first taste of the big leagues, especially when they came in the form that Gamel's came. In large part the result of a backward K for taking a close pitch. He'll learn. And that overwhelming LACK of holes in his swing(not that there aren't any) assuage my concerns over long term issues.

 

And again, his OPS was far, far, far more significant to me than BA. I'll tell ya what, I'll take a Ryan Howard type player on my team anyday, and he could easily give you 200 K's and a .250 BA. Those two stats don't tell me nearly enough.

Wow - I hadn't looked at his numbers when he started at 3b vs when he didn't........... was pretty surprised (and impressed) to say the least.

 

That said, it's a stretch to try and put those in the same league as Howard - Gamel had a higher K% (42.2) than anyone else in the league last season that had 100 PA or more. In fact, it's been a problem for him since he's gone above AA ball - even in 320 PA's at AAA in 2009 he still had a K% of 32.6%. (6th worst in the PCL/200 or more PA) Don't get me wrong, I still have high hopes for Gamel - Love his ability to hit lefties and his OBP - but I think he has to get that K rate down to be an elite hitter......... Hopefully that will come with playing everyday and maturing.

 

Unfortunately, unless Prince is dealt or McGehee falls off a cliff, I don't see him getting a shot anytime soon.

[pete]

Gamel was up for approx 95 days last year which I would guess to be about 81ish games. 148 PA over that time period is pretty pathetic. It is less than a start every other game. It isn't overblown. He was jerked around and now has a year of service time during which time we got about a month and a half worth of PA out of him.

 

BA and strikeouts. You will not win hearts and minds with those stats here.

 

He started 28 times over about a 2 month period and was used in a bunch of others. Saying that he should have been installed as a permanent starter immediately and left there regardless is debatable. Maybe you don't think he should have been a September call up.

 

You keep talking about his service time as if it was all time rotting on the bench.

 

BA is the main component of OBP. Its fashionable to use OBP, but it really doesn't matter about winning hearts and minds when minds are closed. Ks are used to evaluate prospects all the time.

[logan82]

That said, it's a stretch to try and put those in the same league as Howard - Gamel had a higher K% (42.2) than anyone else in the league last season that had 100 PA or more. In fact, it's been a problem for him since he's gone above AA ball - even in 320 PA's at AAA in 2009 he still had a K% of 32.6%. (6th worst in the PCL/200 or more PA) Don't get me wrong, I still have high hopes for Gamel - Love his ability to hit lefties and his OBP - but I think he has to get that K rate down to be an elite hitter......... Hopefully that will come with playing everyday and maturing.

 

I can live with the K's if he is doing the other things well. Sure it is a lot of K's but I would still chalk it up to the sporadic playing time.

 

Unfortunately, unless Prince is dealt or McGehee falls off a cliff, I don't see him getting a shot anytime soon.

 

I would think room will be made for him by next year one way or another. 3B, RF, or 1B should be open next year.

[sheetskout]

Hart for Jordan Zimmerman and Marrero. I would take the risk on Zimmerman.

 

I would be down.

[TooLiveBrew]

http://sports.espn.go.com...lb/news/story?id=5273195

Red Sox outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury will need "several weeks" of rest and rehabilitation after an examination in Los Angeles revealed another fractured rib, according to a statement released by the club Thursday.

I wonder what kind of value Boston would be willing to offer for Hart. Ortiz has cooled off significantly (.162/.360/.378/.738 line in the past 14 days), so you could even ponder the idea of a Hart+Fielder package.

[Invader3K]

I guess it depends if the Red Sox think they are still in it or not. They probably do, but they are in third place and fairly well behind the Rays and Yankees. I'm not sure if it will make sense for them to be big buyers at the deadline or not.

[endaround]

BP has the Sox projected at 90 wins, the Rays and Yankees at 97. That's a huge difference. They still are given about a 30% playoff shot but the more injuries that pile up the harder it is to just keep applying cover ups. Its hard to just give up though since they are like the 3rd best team in baseball.

[chadomac]

We really need to take what we can get for Hart. This is the perfect time to move him and we aren't going anywhere this year. And even if he somehow keeps this production up... he's going to ask for 8-10 mil in arbitration next year.

[Boisebrewer]

With defense being so "en vogue" with teams like the Red Sox do you think they would give much up for him?

[chadomac]

With defense being so "en vogue" with teams like the Red Sox do you think they would give much up for him?

 

Adam Dunn and Manny Ramirez still play in the National League - anything is possible.

[endaround]

Hart in LF is fine, he probably could be a plus defensive LFer.

[Boisebrewer]

Hart in LF is fine, he probably could be a plus defensive LFer.

Good point. I was putting him in right, but the injury was to the LFer.

 

[TheCrew]

I'd rather keep Hart if Prince is going to be traded - his trade value is clearly better than it was a month ago, but other gm's are going to point out that he's been hot for one month and wasn't very good for nearly 2 seasons. I don't think the return would be very good and, call me crazy, but I think Hart may have finally turned a corner.

[Invader3K]

I just don't buy that logic Crew. What if he nosedives in the second half? We're just going to sit around saying, "Gee, we should have traded him when he was hot." This team has plenty of outfield options that will be ready for 2011. I'd rather trade Hart and get something more useful for the future if at all possible. Plus, if we do hold onto him and he continues hitting, he could get quite expensive next season. This team will probably be in a situation where they may have to reduce payroll and it doesn't make sense to spend so much on a right fielder with a fairly mediocre track record.

[chadomac]

Regardless of how you think Hart will play in the second half, this team is going nowhere and probably won't want to pay Hart 6-10 mil to play RF for us in 2011... so why not cut ties now and try to get something for him.

[TheCrew]

I just don't buy that logic Crew. What if he nosedives in the second half? We're just going to sit around saying, "Gee, we should have traded him when he was hot." This team has plenty of outfield options that will be ready for 2011. I'd rather trade Hart and get something more useful for the future if at all possible. Plus, if we do hold onto him and he continues hitting, he could get quite expensive next season. This team will probably be in a situation where they may have to reduce payroll and it doesn't make sense to spend so much on a right fielder with a fairly mediocre track record.

Lot of money coming off the books next season with Hall/Suppan/Riske - especially if they trade Fielder. Affording Hart wouldn't be a problem.

 

I guess I just don't see a good return for Hart coming based on 1 good month - If he does keep it up all season, it only increases his trade value in the offseason. If the right offer came along, I'd be all for it - but I just don't see them getting good value for Hart right now..... plus I fear he'll turn into a Jason Werth type player if he gets traded.

 

Odds are, Prince is gone this offseason, and that production is going to need to be replaced and Hart has really stepped his game up since he started playing everyday this year. He's really never had a stretch like this in his career which makes me think he has finally turned a corner, he's working the count and has finally learned how to lay off the slider - which to me, shows he has finally matured as a hitter. If he can keep this up, it'll be a lot easier to replace Prince's production next season.

[TooLiveBrew]

I actually agree with you, TheCrew, on Hart having turned a corner. But I disagree that the Brewers should keep him. I think you counter the argument that he wasn't great over the past two seasons by reminding GMs it was a season & a half, and part of that included an emergency appendectomy. Hart's power is obviously very legit; it's all about being selective at the plate, at which imho he's demonstrated that he's improved greatly (& you could support the 'year-&-a-half' rebuttal by arguing it was spent helping develop his plate discipline). Invader sums up well why I'd like to see Hart sold now:

"This team has plenty of outfield options that will be ready for 2011. I'd rather trade Hart and get something more useful for the future if at all possible. Plus, if we do hold onto him and he continues hitting, he could get quite expensive next season."