I like Soup.

[strawbossisevil]

Why is Jeff Hammonds hated on then for Dean Taylor's mistake? While I agree that Melvin should bear the brunt of the fury for this decison, Suppan should take some heat as well, because he hasn't come close to earning that contract.

So, let's say Doug Melvin came up and offered you $10 Million dollars to pitch for the Milwaukee Brewers. Would you take the money? (I would.) Is it your fault that you don't have the talent to live up to that contract? Suppan was a #4 starter on the wrong side of his prime when we signed him, somehow expecting him to have the talent to put up the numbers of a #2 isn't fair.

 

Now, if you could prove that he hasn't put forth any effort toward pitching his best, you might have an argument. But a guy can't be magically expected to become a better player just because he's getting the money that a better player would get. That's nonsense.

 

Jeff Suppan was a bad investment, we threw #2 pitcher money at a middle to bottom of the rotation starter. Throwing money at him won't change who he is as a player, nor should it be expected to do so.

 

I don't put all of the fault on Melvin's shoulders with Suppan, however. I think our owner played a very significant role in trying to bring Soup in. Hopefully both he and Melvin have learned their lessons about signing middle to bottom of the rotation talent to long term contracts.

[dadofandrew]

Actually, Mark A gave him the 4th year. Doug only offered three, MA went 4 during their LA meal. A link must exist for this.

 

The original post is truthful, though he's well overpaid. Just going by production, I'd say he's middle of the pack for a 5th starter, maybe top third if you give him credit for durability.

[TheCrew]

Well said Straw Boss. As I pointed out in my last post, the fact a very good player was traded away 6 months earlier is what has always made it sting a bit more in my opinion. Melvin's infatuation with Mench really cost the Brewers - I'm sure some team out there would have offered up a middle of the rotation guy for Lee or a decent pitching prospect or two.

[Ennder]

I never considered Mench a major part of that deal, he was a throw in. The center piece was Cordero for Lee. The rest was filler though we lost out on the filler.

[twobrewers]

Agreed. Well said Strawboss.

 

I think people forget about where the Brewers were 4 years ago. This board was pretty excited to get a free agent of Suppan's quality. (Very limited, but still) Prior to that, the idea of a free agent coming to Milwaukee was completely unheard of.

 

As the Brewer have gotten better, we have been able to draw from a better class of free agents. But the point is, 3 years ago, Trevor Hoffman doesn't sign with the Brewers. The Brewers HAD to overpay.

 

I have no problem with Soup. Doug Melvin overpaid him. Soup has been an outstanding member of our community and worked hard. I wish he was better, but that is hardly his own fault.

[TooLiveBrew]

Jeff Suppan was a bad investment, we threw #2 pitcher money at a middle to bottom of the rotation starter. Throwing money at him won't change who he is as a player, nor should it be expected to do so.

 

At the time they signed Suppan, no he was not payed like a #2 starter. Times have gotten much tougher in terms of the economy. Guys like Carlos Silva got paid back then too.

[TheCrew07]

So, let's say Doug Melvin came up and offered you $10 Million dollars to pitch for the Milwaukee Brewers. Would you take the money? (I would.)

The more I think about that argument over the years, the more hollow it rings. I'm not an ultra conservative by any stretch, but while there is always a certain percentage of the population that will take what they didn't earn, I think this idea has much more to do with declining morality, integrity, and personal responsibility as a society than it does what is truly right or wrong. There's just so much grey area with a topic like this that I don't think there is a clear cut answer. Personally speaking I wouldn't take 10 million from the Brewers to be a pitcher, and like many on this site my dream was to be a professional athlete, I wouldn't be able to do it in good conscience. I just don't take what I feel I haven't earned, I'm just not wired that way. The only time I stole anything in my entire life was on a bet and my sister tattled on me after the fact so my parents made me return the items to the store and apologize to the owners in person. The whole thing was just dumb... I was standing in the checkout line to buy the stuff when a buddy bet me that I didn't have the guts or smarts to smuggle the items out of the store. Well in typical "you won't tell me what I'm capable of" fashion I did what I did.

 

It doesn't matter when Suppan was signed, he was never going to be good value to the Brewers, he's just not a good enough pitcher. The comparisons to the Reggie White and "we're a player in free agency now!" started with Suppan and continues to this day. Spending money on FA pitchers is just horrible value anyway it's spun, and truthfully the Brewers aren't a player in free agency now and never will be in the current economic setup of baseball. It's ludicrous to compare signing average to above average players in there mid 30s and on the decline to signing the marquee DE of his generation. While Reggie was certainly declining in the counting stats department, he was still able to shut down an entire edge of the offense on his own. Signing Sabathia would have been akin to signing to White, but the Brewers were years and 70 million dollars short. There is no player the Brewers can afford in FA that is of that same caliber, our best hope of signing that type of talent is through Braunesque type deals. Maybe Fielder will take less years to stay in Milwaukee, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I look at a contract like Shields signed 2 years ago with TB or Lind signed this week with Toronto as models for what Melvin should be looking to do with Gallardo immediately, and down the road whichever young pitchers and position players step up should be considered for that type of deal as well.

[logan82]

truthfully the Brewers aren't a player in free agency now and never will be in the current economic setup of baseball.

 

I partially agree with this. We are not a player on the big free agents but I think because we are at least competitive we are a player in the 2nd tier of free agents. I don't think the Suppan deal made us look any better to prospective free agents. A fair deal would. We had to offer Wolf an extra year to land him so I guess I would say we still have to offer more than some other teams.

 

The free agent market has changed drastically since we signed Suppan. Look at what Wolf signed for compared to Suppan.

[GAME05]

i didn't love the Suppan signing at the time, but i didn't hate it. as has been said, for me the signing seemed more for the statement it made. we were getting to be a decent team and he was a coveted FA, and the fact that he'd been awesome in the playoffs said to fans and other teams that we were expecting to make the playoffs in Suppan's tenure. and i can understand that MA wanted to give him an extra year, because every new owner wants to come in and make a splash with at least one top FA, especially to pull him away from a big destination like LA. i was happy with signing him in that MA was telling me that this team was no longer satisfied with signing one mid-tier FA and calling it an off-season like we used to do with people like Jose Hernandez.

 

We gave Wolf pretty decent money, but not that fourth year, so maybe Soup also stands as that "lesson learned" free agent.

[Invader3K]

I really have not heard any real evidence that Suppan pushed for a fourth year. It seems more like fan speculation than anything.

[logan82]

GAME05 wrote:

We gave Wolf pretty decent money, but not that fourth year, so maybe Soup also stands as that "lesson learned" free agent.

I am not sure we really learned our lesson. It sounded like other teams were only offering Wolf 2 years.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

The thing with Wolf though is he can actually miss a bat here and there.

[RockCoCougars]

i didn't love the Suppan signing at the time, but i didn't hate it. as has been said, for me the signing seemed more for the statement it made. we were getting to be a decent team and he was a coveted FA, and the fact that he'd been awesome in the playoffs said to fans and other teams that we were expecting to make the playoffs in Suppan's tenure. and i can understand that MA wanted to give him an extra year, because every new owner wants to come in and make a splash with at least one top FA, especially to pull him away from a big destination like LA. i was happy with signing him in that MA was telling me that this team was no longer satisfied with signing one mid-tier FA and calling it an off-season like we used to do with people like Jose Hernandez.

 

We gave Wolf pretty decent money, but not that fourth year, so maybe Soup also stands as that "lesson learned" free agent.

I'm not sure that you could say that Suppan was a 'coveted' free agent at the time. The Cardinals decided to let him walk, and I don't remember reading that he had offers from multiple teams. It seems almost like the Brewers were bidding against themselves. Going further, it can be spun any way you want- Suppan was not signed to be an innings eating back end of the rotation guy. That's not the case, he was clearly signed as a #2 or #3 starter (depending on where you would slot Capuano) to essentially replace Davis a few weeks after he was traded for that steaming pile Estrada.

 

This is one reason that I'm apprehensive about the Wolf signing because it seems very similar. L.A. had no interest, and the only other team that seems to have mild interest was the Mets. Chances are that if Melvin would have waited another 6 weeks he could have gotten him for much less money and possibly only a two year committment.

[Invader3K]

I really have not heard any real evidence that Suppan pushed for a fourth year. It seems more like fan speculation than anything.

I meant to say "evidence that Attanasio pushed for a fourth year."

[JohnBriggs12]

i didn't love the Suppan signing at the time, but i didn't hate it. as has been said, for me the signing seemed more for the statement it made. we were getting to be a decent team and he was a coveted FA, and the fact that he'd been awesome in the playoffs said to fans and other teams that we were expecting to make the playoffs in Suppan's tenure. and i can understand that MA wanted to give him an extra year, because every new owner wants to come in and make a splash with at least one top FA, especially to pull him away from a big destination like LA. i was happy with signing him in that MA was telling me that this team was no longer satisfied with signing one mid-tier FA and calling it an off-season like we used to do with people like Jose Hernandez.

 

We gave Wolf pretty decent money, but not that fourth year, so maybe Soup also stands as that "lesson learned" free agent.

I'm not sure that you could say that Suppan was a 'coveted' free agent at the time. The Cardinals decided to let him walk, and I don't remember reading that he had offers from multiple teams. It seems almost like the Brewers were bidding against themselves. Going further, it can be spun any way you want- Suppan was not signed to be an innings eating back end of the rotation guy. That's not the case, he was clearly signed as a #2 or #3 starter (depending on where you would slot Capuano) to essentially replace Davis a few weeks after he was traded for that steaming pile Estrada.

 

This is one reason that I'm apprehensive about the Wolf signing because it seems very similar. L.A. had no interest, and the only other team that seems to have mild interest was the Mets. Chances are that if Melvin would have waited another 6 weeks he could have gotten him for much less money and possibly only a two year committment.

 

Don't read anything into LA's lack of interest. LA's "no interest" is completely because of the ongoing divorce proceedings of it's owners. In fact they couldn't even offer him arby because they didn't want to have to pay for an extra high draft pick. Wolf was co-ace of that Dodger staff last year. Sure he only won 11, but the team won 65% of Wolf's starts.

[local hero]

Wolf won eleven partly because he pitched in one of the greatest pitching parks in modern ML history (#2 last year). Look at his stat-line in Philly (granted, a hitters park) and you'll find a near Soup II: another .500 or so pitcher with a 4.5+ ERA.

 

It's no coincidence he hasn't won 12 games in 7 years or had an ERA under 4.3 since 2002.

 

Now he's just a year older and back in a park that can yield some runs. Not looking for much, here.

 

As for Soup I: I called him the biggest bust in team history at the signing and still feel he is...that game four mess still burns me up to, BTW. And while I partly agree with the idea that the signing/keeping wasn't Suppan's "fault", I simply think the guy's about 20 pounds overweight and is nowhere near as "into it" as some others assert.

 

sigh.

 

James

[burnzy24]

Look at his stat-line in Philly (granted, a hitters park) and you'll find a near Soup II: another .500 or so pitcher with a 4.5+ ERA.

In eight seasons with Philly Wolf had a 4.21 ERA.

 

[CheezWizHed]

In JSOnline this morning, there was an article about Suppan's return. They seem to think that Suppan will return in time to be the 5th starter. I'm still hoping it will be Parra instead. No speculation on who gets sent down, but I'm guessing its still Villanueva.

 

Any other thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[burnzy24]

The Brewer's official Facebook page just put up an article that Suppan has been named the 5th starter.

[CheezWizHed]

JSOnline also had this in the Game Report[/url]. Here its reporting what Macha said instead of the writers opinions:

 

Brewers manager Ken [/b]Macha [/b]said he had racked his brain

trying to figure out when to pitch right-hander Jeff [/b]Suppan [/b]in

the rotation and how to break up the consecutive left-handers - Randy

[/b]Wolf [/b]and Doug [/b]Davis[/b].

[RockCoCougars]

As for Soup I: I called him the biggest bust in team history at the signing and still feel he is...that game four mess still burns me up to, BTW. And while I partly agree with the idea that the signing/keeping wasn't Suppan's "fault", I simply think the guy's about 20 pounds overweight and is nowhere near as "into it" as some others assert.

 

sigh.

 

James

Agreed. I don't know why he seems to get a free pass when guys like Hammonds, Sean Berry and even Wes Helms were vilified. Who's to say that Suppan is not just coasting by collecting his paychecks? He does have a restaurant to run you know.

 

On another note, I remember commenting in the original Suppan signing thread that he was overweight and an injury risk, Sheets took a lot of guff about his supposedly poor conditioning, but it seems that his rear is about half the size of Soup's. Where has the heat been for Suppan on this?