Rotation Battle 2.0 -- Latest: Suppan Named 5th Starter

[RockCoCougars]

I would never sign a contract that I didn't think I could live up to

 

Why, when the Suppan contract is discussed, do so many seem to completely/conveniently forget that he signed it in a completely different market? One in which guys like him & Carlos Silva were getting 10M+ AAV.

If middle of the rotation guys had such value at that time. why then did Melvin decide to trade away a serviceable starter in Davis, who likely would have came much cheaper than Suppan (and was arguably better anyway) for a fat, lazy catcher?

 

Let's face it, Jeff Suppan is the Larry Brown of baseball. He was fortunate enough to pitch two of the games of his life on the national stage in the NLCS. This caused Mark A. and/or Melvin to fall in love with him. Further complicating the problem is that unlike the NFL, MLB contracts are guaranteed.

[brains and braun]

I have a hard time believing that anyone would not take the deal Soup took. I'm also sure he wishes he was performing better and "justifying the money he makes." Do people believe that he signed the deal thinking, "I am a terrible pitcher, and will earn almost none of this money?" I'm not a Suppan fan, and that contract has been brutal for some time, but come on. He's just a guy making more than he's worth, and he's certainly not the first nor the last.

[strawbossisevil]

Agreed Brains and Braun. Let's put it this way. What if your (the Crew07) boss offered to double your salary? Would you not take the raise? I really have a hard time believing you or anyone else wouldn't. Now, let's add in the fact that for many years you were being paid well below what you were worth to the company, and you were just coming off receiving an "employee of the month" award.

 

In principle, you might say you wouldn't have taken the money Suppan was offered (and how easy to SAY you wouldn't accept it when you don't actually have the choice of passing on 40 million dollars), but I have to believe that actually being offered that kind of money one would start to think about the fact that your family would be taken care of for the rest of their lives. And perhaps Suppan honestly believed that he would be able to remain being a guy who could put up an ERA in the low to mid 4s throughout his contract. During that market, pitchers that could pitch in the low to mid 4s were considered worth that type of contract.

 

I have yet to hear of any MLB player who has turned down a deal because a team was offering him too much money. It's unheard of (and I doubt the players union would be happy about a player doing that). The signing wasn't considered outlandish at the time, because the market was at it's peak and anyone capable of pitching "average" innings was getting just as much.

 

As far as assigning fault, RockCo. Can you ask anything of a player other than that he try his best? Can you really truly blame a player if he is incapable of playing better than his best efforts? I feel the same way about Hammonds. The guy had a big year in Colorado (Coors Field) of all places and he was given a contract, but his best simply was not talented enough to live up to the expectations that came along with his contract. Am I going to be mad at Hammonds that he suddenly didn't become a perennial all star because he was offered a contract of one? Heck no, the guy gave his best effort. I was more upset at the stupid people in management that gave him a big contract despite all the warning signs that he likely didn't have the ability to live up to what they were giving him. And I'm willing to bet that that is where most of the angst and the booing was centered on with Hammonds. Not at the player himself (what more could he do?) but at the organization that offered him the ridiculous contract.

 

I'd say the same holds true for Hall, who was given a big check after his 35 HR season. A fluke season that no where near reflected his true ability level. Although I will note that some of the hatred of Hall came because he loved to watch his hits instead of hustling. It earned him a few benchings and legitimate fan negativity. It's situations like that where, yes, a player does deserve to hear from the crowd.

 

Now, Helms may be a bit of a different situation. There was a reason Helms earned the nickname "Krispy Kreme". The guy put on quite a bit of weight after signing his contract, and I believe that extra weight negatively affected his play. In a situation like that, where there is reason to believe that a player hasn't taken care of himself as well as he should and done his best to live up to his contract, then yes there may be reason for a bit of a beef with the player himself.

 

With most of these cases though, as long as a player gives his best effort, I don't know what the fan can legitimately complain about in regards to the player himself. Am I going to blame Suppan that he can't put up an ERA this year in the low 4s? That would be completely ridiculous of me, as it is very clear the guy doesn't have the natural talent anymore to pull that off. Yet some on here want to set up that unrealistic expectation, hating Suppan despite the fact that his absolute best effort would never be able to match their unrealistic expectations.

 

The problem, and the source of our frustrations in nearly all of these cases, ought not be directed at the players themselves, but at the management that A) Gave them the money in the first place and B) Continue to give them playing time when they aren't cutting it. From the players, I think all the fans can ask for is that they give their best effort, and as long as they do so, there should be no reason to express hatred toward them.

 

Everyone here wants Suppan off the team and hates the fact that he's on the team. But there is a HUGE logical disconnect between A) hating the fact that management is allowing him to remain on the team and B) directing that hate in the direction of a player who is giving his best effort.

 

A) is perfectly logical.

B) is completely illogical.

[Ennder]

If middle of the rotation guys had such value at that time. why then did Melvin decide to trade away a serviceable starter in Davis, who likely would have came much cheaper than Suppan (and was arguably better anyway) for a fat, lazy catcher?

 

He traded him for a starter who was just as good as Davis the previous year, was cheaper, had more years of service time left and who has had better peripherals since the trade than Davis has. One who was outpitching Davis in 2007 before struggling through some injury issues. Not to mention Estrada was a decent hitter for a C, before he got hurt he was sitting at a .770 OPS. That trade seems to go down as bad because of injuries more than anything else. Both of the main guys we traded for got hurt and played through it, Davis didn't.

 

The only way Suppan should feel bad in any way is if he hasn't been working hard to stay in shape.

[RockCoCougars]

If middle of the rotation guys had such value at that time. why then did Melvin decide to trade away a serviceable starter in Davis, who likely would have came much cheaper than Suppan (and was arguably better anyway) for a fat, lazy catcher?

 

He traded him for a starter who was just as good as Davis the previous year, was cheaper, had more years of service time left and who has had better peripherals since the trade than Davis has. One who was outpitching Davis in 2007 before struggling through some injury issues. Not to mention Estrada was a decent hitter for a C, before he got hurt he was sitting at a .770 OPS. That trade seems to go down as bad because of injuries more than anything else. Both of the main guys we traded for got hurt and played through it, Davis didn't.

First, I'll place the disclaimer that I was initially in favor of the Davis/Estrada deal, however...

 

I guess if you call Estrada basically walking to first base on ground balls 'playing through it', but I digress. He was out of shape and lazy. There is a reason that he was traded three times in three years and was out of baseball a year after leaving the Brewers. The starter that was also included in the deal (Vargas) was adequate to OK. Then he was inexplicably cut the next spring after pitching fairly well down in Arizona, in what was an obvious cost-cutting move. Why the need for this cost-cutting? Soup's salary. Also probably the same reason that the Brewers basically did squat at the trading deadline last year.

 

I've come to the conclusion that if the signing was solely Melvin's decison, he needs to go. On the same note, if Macha is making the decision to keep Suppan in the rotation, he needs to go. However, my guess is that neither of those are the case. I'd bet that this is a mandate from Attanasio, which is a little scary. Attanasio has seemed pretty responsive to fan requests in the past, therefore, I urge the fans to make their displeasure known loud and clear if/when Suppan takes the mound again at Miller Park.

[Ennder]

Then he was inexplicably cut the next spring after pitching fairly well down in Arizona, in what was an obvious cost-cutting move. Why the need for this cost-cutting? Soup's salary. Also probably the same reason that the Brewers basically did squat at the trading deadline last year

 

I certainly agree with this, I'd rather they just went with Vargas that year than sign Suppan. I also think Estrada should have been benched when it was obvious he couldn't play through his leg problems.

[monty57]

Also probably the same reason that the Brewers basically did squat at the trading deadline last year.

 

Not to change the topic, but I think one of Melvin's big mistakes was not being a "seller" last year, when we could have traded Cameron, Hoffman, Looper, Kendall, Counsell, etc and added some pieces for the future.

 

In one of the first times in Brewerfan.net history, I think everyone on the board agrees on something... Suppan should not be starting for the Milwaukee Brewers. Personally, I'd like to see him off the team and replaced by Stetter, who would do more to help the team. If we have to take baby steps and move him to the bullpen before we release him, it's still better than seeing him start.

 

Parra looks good so far, and having a young, inexpensive lefty with a mid-90's fastball in the rotation could go a long way towards helping us this year and in the future. Of course, Macha would be in a zim-zam trying to figure out how to split up three lefties in the rotation.

[Invader3K]

I've never understood why lefties "have to be split up in the rotation" anyway. I'd rather see a couple good lefties in there on consecutive days than a bad righty.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm pretty sure it's part of Playing the Game the Right Way™. We should probably consult Tony La Russa and/or Cardinals fans.

[pete]

I'm surprised there is nothing about Bush in here. I wonder how his last start stacks up against recent history of bad starts for the team.

[Invader3K]

I'm surprised there is nothing about Bush in here. I wonder how his last start stacks up against recent history of bad starts for the team.

It was pretty bad, but other than yesterday, Bush has been our best starter so far this season.

[MJLiverock]

There is such a double standard in place with player moves, Hall and Hardy were run out of town on a rail, and Suppan gets chance after chance even though he is completely brutal. This tells me that he is a 'favorite' of someone, likely Mark A.

 

I agree with this completely, and think that's a great reason for why Mark may have more influence on the situation than some people believe.

Hall and Hardy were run out on a rail? Wasn't everyone complaining about how many chances Bill Hall was given and how he just kept getting playing time before finally being forced out because of McGehee, Counsell, and Gamel being available and able to handle third. Hardy was nearing expensive territory and being pushed by the top prospect in the farm system, trading him made perfect sense. I'd hardly call either situation being run out on a rail and especially in Hall's case, multiple chances were given when it questioned why, sort of similar to Suppan.

 

I don't want to see Suppan in the rotation or even in the bullpen but he was only given 2 starts this year (should have been none) but really not much more "favoratism" than other veteran the Brewers have strung along over the years, Kendall starting 130+ games, Counsell playing over Escobar late last year, Gamel barely playing, numerous younger middle relievers who had to wait for vets to flame out, Gagne's deal, Turnbow given multiple chances after his contract, etc.

 

Melvin's press comments yesterday or Saturday also gave no hint he was pressured into keeping Suppan in the rotation, if anything he sounded like he was trying to justify his own mistake.

 

You were right earlier about rumors and Melvin hinting at Attanasio forcing the Yost move but if anything that shows me he stepped in and made Melvin get rid of a guy who wasn't getting it done and that Melvin was dragging his feet on cutting ties or ending the multiple chances thing.