Rotation Battle 2.0 -- Latest: Suppan Named 5th Starter

[MJLiverock]

That's simply silly. MAs involvement is an easy excuse to ignore Melvins complete failure with Suppan. It allows us to ignore the failures of Melvin and only focus on the positives.

 

I completely agree, there has not been one shred of evidence that Attanasio is calling the shots. Attanasio had dinner with a guy who lives nearby whom his GM wanted to sign to a big long term deal early in Attanasio's ownership tenure. Nothing suspicious or controlling about that in anyway. No one has any idea how many players Attanasio has met or not met. But this is always used to excuse Melvin for the deal like he was forced into it. Attanasio has always maintained he lets the baseball guys make the baseball calls and it isn't like Melvin has a stellar track record with other pitchers or building a staff. No one seems to blame Attanasio for Gamel's situation last year, Stetter getting sent down, Turnbow and Hall's deals and continued playing time, Counsell playing over Escobar often late last year, Jason Kendalll starting 130 games, Eric Gagne's $10MM deal, etc. Seems to me the mounting evidence is the team gives veteran players and high paid players a very long leash and this situation is no different. Why would this theory be that Attanasio wants to hang on to Suppan in the rotation to prove he was right? He probably didn't make the deal and if anything it is Melvin that wants to keep him around to justify the deal or try and prove he has something and Macha continually starting him since he has shown he preferes veterans over young guys a number of times. Suppan is a sunk cost, the Brewers are paying for him either way. My guess is Macha/Melvin want to see if there is anything at all there before cutting him loose.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm hoping and praying that Parra is getting some extra innings tonight to get him stretched out to start in five days, but I know it's a pipe dream.

This post captures my thoughts 100%. When he came into the game, I thought, 'Hmm -- maybe he's .... NAAHHH'

[PeaveyFury]

I completely agree, there has not been one shred of evidence that Attanasio is calling the shots.

 

By all accounts, the firing of Yost wasn't done by Melvin's choice, IIRC.

[RockCoCougars]

Why so much hate for Suppan? He is, never was, or ever will be an awesome pitcher. He is old, he is fading and was when we signed him. If my boss offered to pay me a crap ton of money to do my job, I sure as heck would sign the dotted line. So while Suppan does indeed suck at baseball, it's not his fault he's on the team. And it's not his fault that he is allowed to pitch every 5 games. Shouldn't our anger at this situation be at the people that subject us to such vile and hateful things such as going to a Brewers game when Suppan starts.

Because he's stolen 40 some million dollars from the Brewers. He should be booed. The idea that 'we knew he sucked when he was signed' doesn't fly either. I knew he sucked, many others here knew he sucked, but for whatever reason, Melvin and Attanasio did not. ( Just think if Melvin would have succeed in bringing Dave Roberts here that same winter for $25-$30 million? ) Melvin should take some of the heat for this as well, since I'm convinced that Suppan is a 'Mark A.' guy. Guys like Jeffery Hammond didn't exactly have a great track record when they were signed either and they were run out of town. Even guys like Helms, Moeller, etc. seem to have taken more heat from the fans here, than Suppan and they made a fraction of his salary.

 

I don't see how anyone can feel bad about Suppan getting rightfully booed off the mound. While Suppan is taking the heat, a message is also sent to the dunderheads that keep wasting games by running him out there. I'll take people's words for it that he's a great guy, but everyone talks about what 'good that he's done for the community'. Can someone break that down for me? He doesn't even live here in the off-season,so I doubt that it's much more than a fraction of his heist from the contract.

[RockCoCougars]

Why so much hate for Suppan? He is, never was, or ever will be an awesome pitcher. He is old, he is fading and was when we signed him. If my boss offered to pay me a crap ton of money to do my job, I sure as heck would sign the dotted line. So while Suppan does indeed suck at baseball, it's not his fault he's on the team. And it's not his fault that he is allowed to pitch every 5 games. Shouldn't our anger at this situation be at the people that subject us to such vile and hateful things such as going to a Brewers game when Suppan starts.

Because he's stolen 40 some million dollars from the Brewers. He should be booed. The idea that 'we knew he sucked when he was signed' doesn't fly either. I knew he sucked, many others here knew he sucked, but for whatever reason, Melvin and Attanasio did not. ( Just think if Melvin would have succeed in bringing Dave Roberts here that same winter for $25-$30 million? ) Melvin should take some of the heat for this as well, but that's a little complicated since I'm convinced that Suppan is a 'Mark A.' guy.

 

I don't see how anyone can feel bad about Suppan getting rightfully booed off the mound. While Suppan is taking the heat, a message is also sent to the dunderheads that keep wasting games by running him out there. I'll take people's words for it that he's a great guy, but everyone talks about what 'good that he's done for the community'. Can someone break that down for me? He doesn't even live here in the off-season,so I doubt that it's much more than a fraction of his heist from the contract.

[PeaveyFury]

Just think if Melvin would have succeed in bringing Dave Roberts here that same winter for $25-$30 million?

 

That number is way off- I believe the offer was 15-18 million or so. But your point about their interest is still valid.

[Funketown]

Because he's stolen 40 some million dollars from the Brewers. He should be booed.

Wait, players are stealing from owners now? Do you not see the irony with that statement?

 

If you boo Suppan for stealing from the Brewers, you'll have to make sure to boo Attanasio as well for stealing from Escobar, Gallardo, and McGehee, and every other team controlled player on the roster.

[MJLiverock]

Because he's stolen 40 some million dollars from the Brewers. He should be booed. The idea that 'we knew he sucked when he was signed' doesn't fly either. I knew he sucked, many others here knew he sucked, but for whatever reason, Melvin and Attanasio did not. ( Just think if Melvin would have succeed in bringing Dave Roberts here that same winter for $25-$30 million? ) Melvin should take some of the heat for this as well, but that's a little complicated since I'm convinced that Suppan is a 'Mark A.' guy.

 

I don't see how anyone can feel bad about Suppan getting rightfully booed off the mound. While Suppan is taking the heat, a message is also sent to the dunderheads that keep wasting games by running him out there. I'll take people's words for it that he's a great guy, but everyone talks about what 'good that he's done for the community'. Can someone break that down for me? He doesn't even live here in the off-season,so I doubt that it's much more than a fraction of his heist from the contract.

Kind of interesting you question evidence of Suppan's community involvement when he has been the Clemente nominee for community involvment from the Brewers for 3 straight years in the same post you are sure Suppan is Mark A.'s guy with really no evidence other than a dinner while also citing another aging vet Melvin tried to sign for too much money.

[young guns]

I'm wondering, at what point does Soup go to management and ask to be taken out of the rotation. He has to know that he isn't one of the best 5 starting pitching options that the brewers have.

[joepepsi]

I'm confused with the give him a couple more starts sentiment. What, so he can progress from punching everyone in the face with the reality that he's done to employing a power tool to drill into everyone's heads the reality that he's done?

I didn't support him becoming the 5th starter. I think he looks terrible out there. Every hit against him is a rocket. But there is such a thing as small sample size; if not, then Davis should be pulled too. I don't want Suppan starting any more games, but the organization is too stubborn to pull him after just 2 starts. They'll want him to bury himself in 4-6 starts, then they'll pull the plug.

[RockCoCougars]

Kind of interesting you question evidence of Suppan's community involvement when he has been the Clemente nominee for community involvment from the Brewers for 3 straight years in the same post you are sure Suppan is Mark A.'s guy with really no evidence other than a dinner while also citing another aging vet Melvin tried to sign for too much money.

Give me specific examples of what he's done outside of donate $100,000 per year to the club charities. That's one percent of his contract, and after the tax writeoff, about $250 grand total. Don't get my wrong it's a kind effort, and above and beyond what a lot of guys would do. That said, it shouldn't make him immune to booing or above criticism. If you guys want to lay the blame on Melvin for being 100% on this move, that's fine, but it's a fireable offense. In my opinion, it wasn't 100% Melvin, Soup is Mark's pet.

[hawing]

For what it's worth, Adam McCalvy's blog has a new entry this afternoon titled Suppan's rotation spot in doubt. There's not much in it, but the phrase now exists on a relatively official source.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Tom H says the same thing that "Suppan role being discussed".

 

 

JSonline

[strawbossisevil]

RockCoCougars,

 

I don't get how you can say he is "stealing" 40 million from the Brewers. One could possibly state that if he wasn't putting forth full effort into his pitching, but I have yet to hear any account of him being lazy or unprepared. The fault of the contract doesn't lie with Suppan, he took the biggest deal offered to him just like any other MLB player would do.

 

Heck, putting myself into his situation, if the Brewers came up to me and offered me 40 million to pitch for them over the next four years, there is no way I'd turn that deal down. Even though my fastball tops out in the low 80s. If that is what they are offering me, there is no reason for me to turn that money down. Why should we view Suppan, the person, any differently? Would you honestly say that you would turn down that type of money if it was offered to you?

 

Nope, the problem in this situation is with the people who gave him the money, and I personally believe both Melvin and Mark A had a part to play in that mistake based on what I've read about the situation.

 

I also don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to the charity aspect. He is one of the most charitable men in his sport. And let's remember that there is nothing forcing him to give up the hundreds of thousands of dollars, he does that of his own free will.

 

If you boo, don't boo the man, he's doing the best he can with what remains of his right arm. If you boo, boo the idiots that keep running him out there every 5 days, they are the real people that ought to hear our displeasure.

[Funketown]

I'm wondering, at what point does Soup go to management and ask to be taken out of the rotation. He has to know that he isn't one of the best 5 starting pitching options that the brewers have.

I don't know about that. Professional athletes are typically not the most humble folk; it wouldn't at all surprise me if Suppan believes he is still a #3/4 starter who has been hampered by injuries.

[PeaveyFury]

Give me specific examples of what he's done outside of donate $100,000 per year to the club charities.

 

Didn't he buy like 2-4 premier seats for each home game a few years back and donate them to members of the Armed Forces?

 

And, seriously? You're going to choose to criticize Suppan on charitable involvement?

[razzzorsharp]

Give me specific examples of what he's done outside of donate $100,000 per year to the club charities.

 

Didn't he buy like 2-4 premier seats for each home game a few years back and donate them to members of the Armed Forces?

I thought he had Soup's Troups which you mentioned and the 100,000 isn't anything to sneeze at.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm wondering, at what point does Soup go to management and ask to be taken out of the rotation. He has to know that he isn't one of the best 5 starting pitching options that the brewers have.

I don't know about that. Professional athletes are typically not the most humble folk; it wouldn't at all surprise me if Suppan believes he is still a #3/4 starter who has been hampered by injuries.

That's another thing that bothers me about Suppan. To the best of my knowledge, he's never come out and said anything to the effect of, 'I'm letting the team down', 'I really stunk it up tonight', 'I deserved the boos", etc. Wolf did so after his first start. Who's to say that he's keeping himself in good baseball shape either? I've said it before here, his rear end has seemed to get bigger every year.

 

There is such a double standard in place with player moves, Hall and Hardy were run out of town on a rail, and Suppan gets chance after chance even though he is completely brutal. This tells me that he is a 'favorite' of someone, likely Mark A. He needs to 'get hurt', and go on the D.L. again...now, before he costs the team too many games.

[PeaveyFury]

There is such a double standard in place with player moves, Hall and Hardy were run out of town on a rail, and Suppan gets chance after chance even though he is completely brutal. This tells me that he is a 'favorite' of someone, likely Mark A.

 

I agree with this completely, and think that's a great reason for why Mark may have more influence on the situation than some people believe.

[endaround]

Actually the double standard has been that Davis was told that he might be yanked despite actually having pitched well the last two seasons while we are just getting around to having discussions about Suppan's role.

[strawbossisevil]

[quote name=RockCoCougars wrote: . Who's to say that he's keeping himself in good baseball shape either? I've said it before here, his rear end has seemed to get bigger every year. [/b]

You are really grasping at straws with this. There has never been an article published questioning his work ethic, and I think understandably so due to his personality.

 

And part of being a pitcher is having a short memory and remaining confident. They have to convince themselves that their stuff is good enough to go up against the best hitters in the world, and if they doubt that they will never hold up in the mental aspect of the game (see problems of Parra, Manny for reference as to what can happen when a pitcher dwells too much on failure). It's why you hardly ever hear any pitcher apologize for a bad outing, with very few exceptions. And if a pitcher truly did his best, what is there to apologize for? Normally when you apologize you've done something wrong. I don't see how doing one's best, even when the results aren't there, warrants a player groveling in front of a television camera. In the same way, I can't think of any one example of Suppan boasting to the cameras following a good outing. If the man truly were conceited, I imagine that would be something that would tip us off.

 

I understand that you are grasping for whatever reason possible to hate the guy, but quite honestly just about every point you have made has been extremely weak. Quite often pure speculation with no facts to back it up, and it is all completely unconvincing.

 

The guy is not a good pitcher anymore. That is clear. I can understand why you would dislike the fact that he is on the team (I do too), but I see no reason whatsoever to have a personal hatred for the guy. Saying he is "stealing" or "conceited" shows that you clearly have a strong disliking of Suppan the person that really isn't backed by any specific facts whatsoever. I'd say let's focus on the real problem here, a manager that is set on putting a washed up player on the mound every 5th day when clear and better alternatives are clearly available to him.

[Playing Catch]

Personally, I would love to see a "tandem" situation with Suppan and either of the long relief lefties. I especially would like it if Attanasio/Melvin/Macha went public with the idea simply to see how opposing managers would set up their lineups. Admittedly, I have also been interested in "tandeming" (I love gerunds) at the major league level due to pitchers with limited repertoires.

[RockCoCougars]

strawbossisevil]

RockCoCougars wrote: . Who's to say that he's keeping himself in good baseball shape either? I've said it before here, his rear end has seemed to get bigger every year.

You are really grasping at straws with this. There has never been an article published questioning his work ethic, and I think understandably so due to his personality.

 

And part of being a pitcher is having a short memory and remaining confident. They have to convince themselves that their stuff is good enough to go up against the best hitters in the world, and if they doubt that they will never hold up in the mental aspect of the game (see problems of Parra, Manny for reference as to what can happen when a pitcher dwells too much on failure). It's why you hardly ever hear any pitcher apologize for a bad outing, with very few exceptions. And if a pitcher truly did his best, what is there to apologize for? Normally when you apologize you've done something wrong. I don't see how doing one's best, even when the results aren't there, warrants a player groveling in front of a television camera. In the same way, I can't think of any one example of Suppan boasting to the cameras following a good outing. If the man truly were conceited, I imagine that would be something that would tip us off.

 

I understand that you are grasping for whatever reason possible to hate the guy, but quite honestly just about every point you have made has been extremely weak. Quite often pure speculation with no facts to back it up, and it is all completely unconvincing.

 

The guy is not a good pitcher anymore. That is clear. I can understand why you would dislike the fact that he is on the team (I do too), but I see no reason whatsoever to have a personal hatred for the guy. Saying he is "stealing" or "conceited" shows that you clearly have a strong disliking of Suppan the person that really isn't backed by any specific facts whatsoever. I'd say let's focus on the real problem here, a manager that is set on putting a washed up player on the mound every 5th day when clear and better alternatives are clearly available to him.

Do I personally hate the guy? No. Do I hate him as a player? Yes. I'm solely posing the question- why do people 'feel bad' for Suppan when he's booed, or claim that 'it isn't his fault' that he's not living up to his conract. He's stunk up the joint much worse than guys like Hammonds, Helms, Hall, etc., and they were booed unmercifully and eventually ran out of town, even though they only made a fraction of Suppan's salary. It really ticks me off to think that he's tremendously hindered this team during their small window to contend. Going further, it also bugs the heck out of me that he keep getting chances when others do not. This tells me that someone in management is in his corner. Suppan apologists cannot use the 'no better options' excuse this year because there most certainly are, but for whatever stupid reason, those options are not even given a chance. I think we've all worked with an incompetent who makes more money than us soley because they have 'the connections' with management. I think that's a perfect analogy here.

[TheCrew07]

I have a hard time with the line "any of us would take the money", because I still believe that are people who care about honesty and integrity out there. I would never sign a contract that I didn't think I could live up to, and I have to believe that I'm not the only one around here that feels that way. If Suppan doesn't feel horrible in the same way that Gagne did, then he's a piece of garbage in my opinion. I have no problem with him signing for that money if he honestly thought he could meet his end of the bargain, but given how it's turned out he had better feel horrible about it. I can't be the only the one who would feel guilt and remorse over taking that kind of money to be a below average pitcher. That's why I have a ton of respect for Gagne the human being... Gagne owned it, knew he blew it, and he made an effort to make it right. When has Suppan ever owned his poor performances publicly, I read a ton of baseball news every day and I don't recall him ever owning a bad performance like Rand Wolf did earlier this season? Maybe I just have a selective memory?

 

I have no doubt that many here would take the money and run without giving it second thought, but that doesn't make it right, and please don't lump those of us that wouldn't take money in by saying "Who wouldn't take that money?". If no one else will say it, I will. I wouldn't take the damn money, I have a hard time accepting a free night out on the town when work is paying for it and everyone else around me is splurging. It's just not how I'm wired.

 

As far as keeping Suppan around for depth. I find the notion of keeping depth around for depth's sake so infuriating I don't even know how to put it into words. Suppan has been below replacement level for 2 years, which means we should be able to bring up a starter from AAA and get marginally better production. Why don't we start concerning ourselves with quality instead of quantity? We have enough depth in AAA and AA now that we don't need to keep scrubs around just for depth. What's really difference if those starts go to Suppan or Estrada, Loe, Lofgren? Aren't all pitchers who give up runs and don't last through the 6th inning essentially doing the same thing to the bullpen? The only difference would be how many runs the offense is scoring... The end result would likely be the same either way, but at least the guys in AAA are young enough they may improve, Suppan will only continue to decline.

 

The organization desperately needs Manny Parra to figure it out by 2011, he needs to be in the rotation. I've never been a huge Narveson fan, he pitched better in MLB than he did in AAA last season, and he was fantastic this spring, but I still favored Parra for the rotation. I'd rather put the effort into someone with some upside who's talented enough he could swing the entire rotation on his performance alone. The Manny Parra question needs to be answered by the end of the season, one way or the other.

 

Sooner or later Suppan will have some good outings, every pitcher does, and then people will want to give him a couple of more starts, but Suppan isn't making us a better team this season and certainly won't be doing anything for us in 2011 other than collecting his buyout. Parra's development is stalled in the pen, get him in the rotation... if he fails we can go with Narveson or one of the AAA arms, if he succeeds then we'll be in much better shape this season and going into 2011.

[TooLiveBrew]

I would never sign a contract that I didn't think I could live up to

 

Why, when the Suppan contract is discussed, do so many seem to completely/conveniently forget that he signed it in a completely different market? One in which guys like him & Carlos Silva were getting 10M+ AAV.

 

 

When has Suppan ever owned his poor performances publicly, I read a ton of baseball news every day and I don't recall him ever owning a bad performance like Rand Wolf did earlier this season? Maybe I just have a selective memory?

 

Maybe a baseball player doesn't owe you anything, much less a public apology/'ownership' after a bad game? Seriously, do you need Prince Fielder to own starting the season so slowly?