Joe Mauer signs 8 year, $184 mill extension with Minnesota Twins

[TooLiveBrew]

One look at their frames should tell you that Mauer should easily surpass Kendall's career production. Kendall was a fine contact hitter with great plate discipline but never really projected to hit for any power. Mauer might not hit 30+ HRs every season, but he's a better contact hitter than Kendall & has significantly more pop. Add in that he's probably the best defensive catcher in baseball & the fork in the road is more than just Mauer's 2009 imho.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Prince had an absolutely monster season last year, but Mauer might have put up the best season EVER for a catcher last season. I think few people realize how special Mauer is. Three times in history has a catcher won the batting title in the American League. All three times are Mauer. There is another stat (i believe it is something like 5 total ever when you consider MLB as a whole, and Mauer has 3 of the 5)

 

The player that I think of when I see Joe Mauer play is Paul Molitor. Offensively, i think they are very similar players (granted i was 11 years old when the Ignitor was run out of town by the Seligs). Defensively, not only is Mauer the batting champ, but he's also won multiple gold gloves behind the plate.

 

I'm biased, and my ultimate dream is a Twins-Brewers World Series, but i think a player like Mauer only comes around once in a generation. He could get hurt and blame out, but if you had to ask me now, i'd say he's a first ballot HOF who probably will put up a .325/.425/.475/.900 line for most of his contract. His value decreases if he moves off catcher, but he's still a damn valuable player if he moves to 3B or even one of the corner OF spots. I think people forget how many players consistently put up a .900 OPS in baseball.

 

There is a change of regression, but i'd bet the farm right now that Mauer makes the HOF.

[TooLiveBrew]

Mauer might have put up the best season EVER for a catcher last season.

 

A quick & dirty glance at Baseball-Reference's OPS+ leaderboard yields

 

181: Deacon White, 1875

172: Mike Piazza, 1992

171: Jack Clements, 1895

170: Joe Mauer, 2009

166: Johnny Bench, 1972

 

Needless to say, the catcher's job in the late 1800s wasn't anything like what it is today. Piazza was obviously nowhere near as good a defender as Mauer. I think it's pretty safe to say (barring some omission on my part) Mauer's '09 is the best season by a catcher, ever.

[Fatter than Joey]

I think it's pretty safe to say (barring some omission on my part) Mauer's '09 is the best season by a catcher, ever.

 

I think it is safe to say that Mauer may have had one of the top 2 or 3 seasons ever... but I would argue that Bench in 1972 was better.

 

1.) Mauer was better offensively, however I don't think by that much.

 

2.) Bench was a stronger defensive catcher. Bench threw out ~50% of the guys who ran against him most of the 70s. He had an incredible arm. Johnny Bench effectively redefined catching in the early 1970s.

 

3.) Bench caught more games in 1972 than Mauer played in... Mauer only caught 109 games last year -- Bench caught 129, and then filled in 3b/1b/OF. Mauer had the opportunity to DH. I do think it is an advantage to keep up a higher BA & OBP when you catch less games if you are comparing catchers. Bench played in the field 147 games, Mauer only 109.

 

Certainly a good case could be made for Mauer, but I don't think it is a clear-cut thing at all.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I would agree with that FTJ. When you get to the "top 5" of anything, especially over a lengthy time span, i'd say its tough to anoint anything "best ever". Probably better and more accurate to say you can make an argument for best ever, and then say definitively that it was top-5 ever for a catcher. I imagine there are dozens of not hundreds of contributing factors that the public will never know making it hard to compare without simply looking at the "stats"

 

Hopefully Prince has a "top 5 ever" year for a 1B, and after winning a world series, we can argue with Yankees fans if Fielder's year is "best ever " http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

2.) Bench was a stronger defensive catcher.

 

While I don't doubt you, having never seen Bench play personally, Joe Mauer is the best catcher I've ever seen play. I can't imagine Bench's edge on defense changing things too much, since there's not much more room above Mauer's caliber of play. The best point you make imo, is the # of games caught & played in the field vs. DHing. That definitely tips the scales for Bench to me.

[thebruce44]

2.) Bench was a stronger defensive catcher.

 

While I don't doubt you, having never seen Bench play personally, Joe Mauer is the best catcher I've ever seen play. I can't imagine Bench's edge on defense changing things too much, since there's not much more room above Mauer's caliber of play. The best point you make imo, is the # of games caught & played in the field vs. DHing. That definitely tips the scales for Bench to me.

Those are also things out of Mauer's control. Catchers (outside of Kendall last year) just don't play as much as they used to. I would agree with the "Top 5" of all time argument because there is just so much that has changed in the last 30 or 40 years it is hard to compare even with something like OPS+.

[Fatter than Joey]

I can't imagine Bench's edge on defense changing things too much, since there's not much more room above Mauer's caliber of play.

 

Bench had a better arm. Bench also revolutionized how the catcher caught the game, he was the best catcher I ever saw -- and then when he leads the league in HRs -- that is awful special.

 

Id say the top 5 catchers I have seen...

 

Bench

Rodriguez

Mauer

 

Piazza and Ted Simmons were great hitting catchers but not so much defensively.

 

My favorite Brewers catcher was probably Eddie O'Brien -- boy, could he throw.

 

All that said, I am not sure 1972 Bench was better than 2009 Mauer -- but they are certainly 2 seasons you have to consider when discussing best catchers ever.

[snyttri]

Mauer may be a little too young at a position that tends to cut careers short to be compared with the best players of all time just yet. I don't know much about Josh Gibson but I think Mauer would have to be considered behind Bench and Gibson so far. Bench and Gibson were considered the 16th and 18th best players of all time by the Sporting News in 1999. Bench's estimation benefited from being around at the same time as the voters just as Mauer's estimation benefits from being around at the same time as the posters. Bench gets points for being the best player on one of baseball's best teams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...all%27s_Greatest_Players

[TooLiveBrew]

Bench had a better arm.

 

Yes, and Mauer looks like he could well be the better offensive player. Again, I defer to you on Bench's defense, but I think Mauer's offense is getting overlooked a bit here.

[snyttri]

Bench had a better arm.

 

Yes, and Mauer looks like he could well be the better offensive player. Again, I defer to you on Bench's defense, but I think Mauer's offense is getting overlooked a bit here.

I think Josh Gibson has always been considered the best offensive catcher in baseball history and the best offensive player in the Negro Leagues. I don't know how you would go about comparing Gibson's Negro Leagues statistics to Mauer's, except that Gibson had a very long career as a catcher and Mauer will never have that chance. Bench's accomplishments were primarily about being a catcher, his career was cut short because he was a catcher and he lead one of baseball's best teams (which he was lucky to be on) so it is difficult to compare him to Mauer. Mauer will probably go up the list of all-time greats at another position so the Twins can protect their biggest investment ever. Bench was quickly worn down behind the plate at a time when all players were expendable.

"Bench won the 1968 National League Rookie of the Year Award, batting .275 with 15 home runs and 82 RBIs, marking the first time the award had been won by a catcher. He also won the 1968 National League Gold Glove Award for catchers, marking the first time the award had been won by a rookie.1970 was Bench's finest statistical season; he became the youngest man to win the National League Most Valuable Player Award, hit .293, led the National League with 45 home runs and 148 Runs batted in, and helped the Reds win the National League West Division."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Bench

[Fatter than Joey]

Bench had a better arm.

 

Yes, and Mauer looks like he could well be the better offensive player. Again, I defer to you on Bench's defense, but I think Mauer's offense is getting overlooked a bit here.

Please understand I am not arguing with you as much as I am just discussing Bench v. Mauer. I don't think Bench would have every hit ~.360, even in this era, but I think Bench had more power.

 

Bench was one of the first catchers to use a hinged catchers glove -- before Bench, most catcher gloves required 2 hands to close -- so catchers would sustain a lot of hand injuries. Once the hinged gloves became standard, catchers were able to keep their throwing hand out of harm's way.

 

Also, Bench being as athletic as he was, caught in a crouch where his back was more parallel to the ground rather than the perpendicular stance that you see guys like Berra and Campinella in. Catchers got a lot "smaller" behind the plate after Bench got to MLB. Bench really revolutionized the position.

 

The best Bench story, and perhaps the best catcher story of all time is as follows:

 

Bench was a rookie, and wanted his pitcher to throw an off-speed pitch, and the pitcher (Jim Maloney or Gerry Arrigo) kept shaking him off. Bench went to the mound and told the pitcher "you aren't throwing hard enough for your fastball to work". The pitcher told Bench to get behind the plate and that he was going to throw his fastball. To prove his point, Bench proceeded to catch the ball with his throwing hand, and apparently after that, the pitcher threw off-speed.

[joepepsi]

Glad to see Ivan Rodriguez brought up, if only briefly. The more he plays the more he's forgotten. But for an 11 year period, from 94-2004, he hit .315/.357/.513, while carrying the reputation as one of the best defenders of all time. His numbers fell off a cliff after his age 32 season, which isn't that uncommon for everyday catchers.

[TooLiveBrew]

Please understand I am not arguing with you as much as I am just discussing Bench v. Mauer. I don't think Bench would have every hit ~.360, even in this era, but I think Bench had more power.

 

Not trying to argue either. I appreciate the info on Bench. He sounds like he could take Chuck Norris.

[Fatter than Joey]

He could hold seven baseballs in one hand.

 

http://www.uc.edu/news/view.asp?infoID=1915&photo=image3

 

Here is a picture of the old style of catching...

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/50343848.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=E41C9FE5C4AA0A145B070CEFE3BD81EF48EA588D47213D1248D72FC50342D66EB01E70F2B3269972

 

Here is Bench's stance...

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/85260738.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5488698C10B6FEEB923809765C55EC87B78868278845035F06D

 

Notice how he is able to use one hand (hinged glove), and he sets up lower in the strike zone, whereas the old guy has that pitch coming right down main street.