Joe Mauer signs 8 year, $184 mill extension with Minnesota Twins

[Flood Pants]

Can someone please explain to me why the owner's net worth is relevant in any of these payroll discussions? What owner, in what sport is actually paying his player out of his own pocket? I've never understood the fascination with the "deep pockets" owner... it's meaningless. The only thing that matters is how much money the team and league generate to make payroll. Unfortunately in baseball the revenue generation is left almost exclusively to the individual teams, so the payroll is limited in a very real way by market size, and the not individual wealth of the owner.

It's not a matter of paying players "out of pocket." Increasing the payroll decreases the profit. The owner(s) of a team, when they sign a big contract, chose to invest that money into the team rather than into their pockets. An owner with more money may be more inclined to operate for less profit.

[thebruce44]

If the Twins can sign Mauer to this type of extension there is NO REASON (other than what the Billy Beane Moneyball fanatics on this board want you to believe) for us not to be able to have the money to sing Prince. We draw just as many, if not more, fans then Minnesota does. No excuses not to get this done now...

The fact of the matter is that the Twins payroll can, will be, and should be higher than the Brewers. It has little to do with a volatile income like attendance and everything to do with market size. Oh, it also has absolutely nothing to do with Billy Beane and/or Moneyball. That baiting shot is about 4 years past its prime.

[TheCrew07]

I'll give you that, but it's pretty clear that the Brewers have pushed the profitability line, so our owner's situation is irrelevant to the discussion and has been for some time. Nor do I see how the current ownership situation of the Twins is relevant, this signing is conveniently timed with the opening of a new stadium. The Brewers tried the same thing, only they set their sights lower and signed a player who wasn't any good to boot.

 

Finally, I'd recommend people spend more time on Cots and see how MN has spent their money in comparison to Milwaukee. In fact, it would be educational to compare the spending pattern in Milwaukee against the other mid and small market teams. The issue has never been can the Brewers afford to sign to Fielder, the issue is should they given that DM hasn't exactly spent money in the most efficient manner since the team became competitive. In some ways I feel like he's actually been trying too hard, but the idea is difficult to explain so I'm just going to leave it at that.

[Ennder]

I still get the feeling that Mark A strongly pushed for the Suppan signing. That is the one that has been the real killer. Yeah the Hall deal turned out bad but it is very comparable to what other teams have done with young players. I think Melvin spends too much on the bullpen and back end of the rotatino but that is partially because Jack Z failed at drafting pitching for the team, he still could have gone cheaper for basically the same results though.

[TooLiveBrew]

Why do you say that? I'm curious..

Mauer's value is much higher since he's a catcher (& a strong defender, too). Fielder's contract will be influenced by 1B/DH/LF types, not really by what Mauer got.

[nate82]

Prince won't get a 8 year $184m deal. I highly doubt anyone will give Fielder that long of a contract if he goes to free agency though Boras will try but I highly doubt Prince will get that. I could see something around 5-7 years around the $90-105m mark though. I'm going to guess the Brewers will offer Prince something around 5 years and $90m at some point which sounds about right for Prince with most of it being back loaded I guess.

[Diskono]

Does anybody else think this could easily end up like the A-Rod situation in Texas? FWIW, the Dallas area is almost twice as large as the Twin Cities. The Twins having a new stadium will help, but the Rangers weren't exactly hurting for attendance in the early 00's.

[joepepsi]

I'm glad for the Twins and their fans, but two words come to mind: Jason Kendall.

 

Kendall's first five seasons: 314/406/456--.858OPS

Mauer's first five seasons: : 317/399/457--.855OPS

 

Oops, edit: The difference is Mauer's 6th season, last year, when he was a monster.

 

edit: code --1992

[CheezWizHed]

Maybe this deserves its own thread, but which player (no "homers" please) would you prefer to have on your team (salary aside): Fielder or Mauer?

 

Fielder has the better SLG, OPS and is younger

 

Mauer plays a premium position, is more injury prone, better AVE and OBP

 

Frankly, it seems to be a wash to me.

[JohnBriggs12]

There's a lot of differences between Mauer and Prince's situations. Mauer is unarguably the best catcher in the game, a premium position. Prince is right up there with the best 1B, but he's in a group of 4, all of whose contracts expire at the same time. In other words right now the supply of premium first basemen is plentiful vis a vis the number of teams that are both in need with the cash available. On the other hand, it's clear Minnesota is where Mauer wants to be and it's also obvious that there was more pressure on the Twins to keep him than perhaps there is on the Brewers to keep Prince.

 

Keeping the Prince/Twins analogy going, the right price for Prince is probably halfway between the $14 million per year that Morneau makes and the $23 million per year going to Mauer. I also think the right number of years is 7. So for me Prince would be worth $130 million over 7 years, with a $20 million option for an 8th.

[Invader3K]

Greetings from Arizona, fellow BFnetters! My net access is limited, but I had to chime in on this.

 

I am glad MIN got this done. One less player for the big market teams to openly covet. I believe this does put further pressure on DM and MA to re-sign Prince. If they could get him on a deal as outlined above (re: slightly lower than Mauer's deal), I think they have to do it.

[kramnoj]

Does anybody else think this could easily end up like the A-Rod situation in Texas?

 

I don't think there is a chance of that happening. Mauer is a favorite son who is being paid market value, and maybe a little bit of a discount. Arod was a mercenary who signed for a record deal.

 

Besides that, Arod was worth his salary in Texas, it was the Chan Ho Park deal that had a much more negative impact.

[thebruce44]

Maybe this deserves its own thread, but which player (no "homers" please) would you prefer to have on your team (salary aside): Fielder or Mauer?

 

Fielder has the better SLG, OPS and is younger

 

Mauer plays a premium position, is more injury prone, better AVE and OBP

 

Frankly, it seems to be a wash to me.

Mauer easily. The difference between Mauer and an average catcher vs. Prince and an average 1B is huge. Its not even close really.

 

 

[Tbadder]

Can someone please explain to me why the owner's net worth is relevant in any of these payroll discussions? What owner, in what sport is actually paying his player out of his own pocket? I've never understood the fascination with the "deep pockets" owner... it's meaningless. The only thing that matters is how much money the team and league generate to make payroll. Unfortunately in baseball the revenue generation is left almost exclusively to the individual teams, so the payroll is limited in a very real way by market size, and the not individual wealth of the owner.

 

 

Well, I can't speak to this issue in baseball, but in other sports, most notably soccer, owners who are rich enough sometimes do pay for players out of their pockets, and sometimes to the tune of 200million dollars in a single season, see Manchester City recently. So, it might happen in baseball. It wouldn't be surprising, but by and large I think you're right.

[endaround]

Most owners in most pro sports don't make huge yearly profits on their team. Now some do (Hi. Mr. Atanasio!), some put family on in no shows jobs (Hi Mr. McCourt!), but like the Steinbrenner's only make any money if the Yankees get into the playoffs. If the owner has income sources outside of the team they can operate at a loss (unlike the Seligs that were so cash poor they had to take short term loans to cover payroll each year), or in like Daniel Snyder cna operate at a loss each year. You can do that because major sports teams just keep going up in value.

[MJLiverock]

I think endaround just beat me to my point about the profitablity aspect of team ownership.

 

I look at it almost like real estate, you won't make much in profits in each year but the gains come from capital appreciation when you sell the thing. I would guess most team owners aren't in it to generate income for them to pay their personal bills, they like owning the team and look to make a big profit when they sell it down the road. There are a few owners who have inherited the team and the team is the big income generator for the family but most of the guys who have bought the teams in the last 20 years are looking for that jump in valuation when they sell it. As long as they can keep it cash flow neutral for the most part they should be happy and reinvesting money into better players, etc. only helps the long run value of the team when they sell it. Sort of like owning a nice big beach house and remodeling the kitchen - - there are only so many places on the water and having a nice kitchen makes it easier to sell for more money.

[Diskono]

I don't think there is a chance of that happening. Mauer is a favorite son who is being paid market value, and maybe a little bit of a discount. Arod was a mercenary who signed for a record deal.

 

Besides that, Arod was worth his salary in Texas, it was the Chan Ho Park deal that had a much more negative impact.

I don't mean to imply that he won't be worth it, its just a matter of having too much of your budget tied up in one player, to a point that it becomes difficult to fill out a roster. The per-year dollars on this deal work out to be very close to what A-Rod got. Even the Red Sox tried to dump Manny Ramirez' contract by placing him on waivers, and he was making about $3m less per year than Mauer. Again, I'd tend to think that he'll end up earning the money, but teams much richer than the Twins have ended up regretting similar contracts in recent history.

[CheezWizHed]

JB, that was a good response to my Fielder/Mauer question. Sleeping through MicroEcon bites me again... rotten supply vs. demand....

 

So another question: How long will Mauer remain a catcher? He has already shown himself to be a little injury prone. Do you think he can play out his contract at catcher? Or will they move him at some point to save his knees?

[Invader3K]

Most owners in most pro sports don't make huge yearly profits on their team. Now some do (Hi. Mr. Atanasio!),

I have to ask. What are you basing this statement on?

[endaround]

Anatasio making huge profits? Forbes had tha Brewers pulling in about $10m per year in profits up until last season (I haven't seen last season). He isn't Loria, but because of revenue sharing Atanasio has made more money owning the Brewers than the Seligs likely ever did before they sold.

[kramnoj]

And what percentage of the Brewers does Attanasio own, and what are his profits compared to his investment? I don't think they look huge in that regard.

[joepepsi]

So another question: How long will Mauer remain a catcher? He has already shown himself to be a little injury prone. Do you think he can play out his contract at catcher? Or will they move him at some point to save his knees?

Until last season, he was basically the same player Jason Kendall was at that age. I'm guessing he'll be really good the next 4-5 years with some injury issues and regular time at DH. After that his offense will probably decline like Kendall's unless he moves to a different position.

[endaround]

You can't really compare the two. Kendall's early years were during the power surge of the late 90s. Add in how much of Kendall's game was based on speed and the ankle injury he suffered.

[thebruce44]

Anatasio making huge profits? Forbes had tha Brewers pulling in about $10m per year in profits up until last season (I haven't seen last season). He isn't Loria, but because of revenue sharing Atanasio has made more money owning the Brewers than the Seligs likely ever did before they sold.

 

Thats really not very much considering the amount of owners they have and that it was probably the best possible year revenue wise they could have had. Then factor in that they barely made it into the black the year before when the picked up CC for the playoff run. And the payroll has been raised 5 or 6 mil this year (perhaps partily due to eating Halls contract) which could very well be coming from any profit last year.

 

Unless we have the team audited again, I think saying Mark makes a lot of money on this team is guesswork at best.

[joepepsi]

You can't really compare the two. Kendall's early years were during the power surge of the late 90s. Add in how much of Kendall's game was based on speed and the ankle injury he suffered.

According to baseball-reference.net Kendall is 3rd on Mauer's list of most comparable players through age 26. Kendall's *OPS+ for his first 5 seasons (which takes into account the era of the player), was 121; Mauer's through his first 5 seasons was 127.

 

As I noted before, the difference between the two comes with the 6th season-2009 for Mauer. Kendall's numbers fell considerably that year, where Mauer's made a big "look at me I'm Yogi Bench" power jump. So maybe this is the fork in the road and Mauer is on his way to a top 5 catcher of all time, if not the best ever.