Prince to Boston possibilities (Revised)

[pete]

Hardy, Hart and probably Fielder were offered up for pitching. The offers coming back weren't good so the team has Gogo, Hart and Fielder. What would a creative offer be? More players?

 

 

 

If the team making an offer and not getting an opportunity to bid back isn't good enough, I guess they have to significantly surpass the market. Two hundred million for Sabathia? Two fifty for Fielder?

[TheCrew07]

Hardy, Hart and probably Fielder were offered up for pitching. The offers coming back weren't good so the team has Gogo, Hart and Fielder. What would a creative offer be? More players?

So based on "probably" for the last 5-6 years we're going to give Melvin a free pass assuming that there was nothing he could do, and that's why he did nothing? What in his history as a GM suggests that he'll trade for high ceiling players either in Texas or Milwaukee?

[pete]

He offered up players for pitching. He was offered back bottom of the rotation starters. If you want to extrapolate that into something bad, go ahead.

 

So what were they supposed to offer Sabathia? You say he failed. Should they have opened with a bid to blow away NY?

[TheCrew07]

He offered up players for pitching. He was offered back bottom of the rotation starters. If you want to extrapolate that into something bad, go ahead.

He was offered back of the rotation starters for Hardy after he held onto him too long. I've never seen anything in print regarding offers for Prince. I was never in favor of trading Hardy at the deadline which coincided with him being at his lowest possible value.

 

So what were they supposed to offer Sabathia? You say he failed. Should they have opened with a bid to blow away NY?

He didn't fail with Sabathia, he got exactly what he wanted and most fans on this site and in Milwaukee wanted, a playoff appearance. When you trade for a rental the only 2 outcomes are resigning the player or taking the draft picks. The failure in the scenario I suggested would be holding onto Fielder while we never make the playoffs with him and hoping to get a first round draft pick back when someone signs him, remember that if 1 of the bottom 15 teams were to sign him, the pick then becomes a 2nd round pick, but we do get the supplemental pick in the 1st round either way. Fielder was a top 10 pick, hopefully the Brewers perform well enough that they will never have the opportunity to draft that high again. The only way the Brewers can acquire elite talent is through the draft or through trades, the Brewers simply aren't able to afford elite players in FA. However, it's very difficult to acquire elite talent outside of the top ten picks in the draft. I would much rather take a couple of elite talents back who are prospects, then try to get lucky lower in the draft and end up with comp picks like Frederickson and Dykstra. Compensation picks don't guarantee elite talent coming back, they don't even guarantee AA level talent coming. By trading Fielder for established prospects at least you're trading for players who've likely already have had some measure of success at AA and are extremely talented. Obviously being talented doesn't guarantee MLB success, plenty of super prospects who succeeded at AA or higher have bombed, but I'd rather take my chances with 1 of the prospects becoming an elite player than 1 of the draft picks becoming an elite player.

[logan82]

He was offered back of the rotation starters for Hardy after he held onto him too long.

 

It also sounded like he was only offered relievers for Hardy the previous year.

[pete]

He was offered back of the rotation starters for Hardy after he held onto him too long.

 

He was shopped before the deadline. I can remember him discussing it in radio interviews.

 

They'll make an offer, make it public, and when the player signs elsewhere say "We tried."... that's just not good enough for me.

 

Again, did you want them to blow the Yankees out of the water? Did you want them to start at 200 million or something? Did you want them to not make an offer? They were never given an opportunity to match the Yankees. Making a huge offer and being willing to add to it isn't good enough for you.

[TheCrew07]

They'll make an offer, make it public, and when the player signs elsewhere say "We tried."... that's just not good enough for me.

 

Again, did you want them to blow the Yankees out of the water? Did you want them to start at 200 million or something? Did you want them to not make an offer? They were never given an opportunity to match the Yankees. Making a huge offer and being willing to add to it isn't good enough for you.

You're entirely missing the point. I wasn't talking about Sabathia, I was talking going through that same scenario with Prince. Sabathia was always going to be about the picks because the Brewers couldn't resign him. Fielder doesn't have to be about a token contract offer and draft picks coming back, I think that would be the least best scenario, which is why I'd rather move him for prospects if at all possible.

[Invader3K]

Fielder doesn't have to be about a token contract offer and draft picks coming back, I think that would be the least best scenario, which is why I'd rather move him for prospects if at all possible.

This I definitely agree with. After how badly this team got burned on draft picks when Sheets and Sabathia departed, I never want to hear about draft pick compensation again.

 

 

[pete]

Well, 100 million isn't token, especially when it was an opening offer. So you want to move Fielder tomorrow. I assume you don't see the team being competitive this year or next. Do you think they have a chance in '12 or '13? If the team is acknowledging that they have no chance in the next two years, do you think they should trade some more players? Get rid of Rickie and Hart obviously, but maybe Parra. Dump Counsell and anyone else on the bench at the deadline if you get anything.

[nate82]

I'm not sure the Brewers are going to get the prospects that they would require for Prince in return. I think a deal similar to what I posted before where the Brewers get an average to an above average player in return along with a prospect is something that is more real than what the Brewers gave up to get Sabathia. Looking over the teams that may have interest in Fielder this year those teams are limited and hold leverage over the Brewers. I don't see that many teams looking to add a player like Prince at 1B when there are comparable free agents still around who could play 1B/DH (Delgado and Dye come to mind) that won't cost a prospect.

 

I believe it is down to 4-5 teams that would be looking to add Prince to their roster. The five teams that I feel are likely to trade for Prince are: the Dodgers, Red Sox, Mariners, Rangers, and the Angels. All but one of these teams would have a great chance to resign Prince and one having questions marks due to owner problems. With the Rangers you are probably looking at something like Chris Davis (I do not like this guy at all no plate discipline at all) and probably a reach here Martin Perez. Definitely wouldn't be immediate help for the Brewers in 2011 though would look like Perez would be ready around 2012 or more likely 2013. I really do not like Chris Davis at all he is an all or nothing hitter but if he could learn some plate discipline he could be a really good hitter. I think you can compare Chris Davis to Bill Hall in terms of plate discipline AKA none at all. Look at his 2009 BB and SO totals. If Davis could somehow cut down on the poor plate discipline he could be something special. I think something like the Loney deal where the Brewers get back an average to an above average player plus a prospect is what the Brewers will be offered in the trade market for Prince. Now is that better than the two comp picks the Brewers would receive by letting Prince walk?

 

 

Year	Age	Tm	Lg	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	Pos	Awards
3 Seasons				208	789	734	101	186	43	3	38	115	1	2	49	255	.253	.302	.475	.777	99	349	13	3	0	3	4
162 Game Avg.				162	615	572	79	145	33	2	30	90	1	2	38	199	.253	.302	.475	.777	99	272	10	2	0	2	3
2008	22	TEX	AL	80	317	295	51	84	23	2	17	55	1	2	20	88	.285	.331	.549	.880	127	162	5	1	0	1	1	35
2009	23	TEX	AL	113	419	391	48	93	15	1	21	59	0	0	24	150	.238	.284	.442	.726	85	173	6	2	0	2	2	35/D
2010	24	TEX	AL	15	53	48	2	9	5	0	0	1	0	0	5	17	.188	.264	.292	.556	49	14	2	0	0	0	1	3

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table

Generated 4/30/2010.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

Does anything think that the Red Sox would allow Buchholz to be the centerpiece of the deal?

 

The only reason I ask is simply because if you can't get Buchholz, then no deal with them. Although he doesn't exactly scream cheap, he's still a huge talent that you could lock up long term.

[nate82]

Does anything think that the Red Sox would allow Buchholz to be the centerpiece of the deal?

 

The only reason I ask is simply because if you can't get Buchholz, then no deal with them. Although he doesn't exactly scream cheap, he's still a huge talent that you could lock up long term.

No Buchholz is not on the table. If the Red Sox were unwilling to trade him for Halladay I don't see them trading him for Prince either.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, given the Red Sox recent history of non-trade activity when things have seemed to match up well, I can't see Melvin getting enough out of Epstein to make a trade with the BoSox worthwhile.

[travisteck]

Nate,

 

Why on earth would we trade for Chris Davis? Smoak is going to take over pretty soon, and Davis has been terrible. That just really doesn't make sense, and with Smoak there at 1b they probably wouldn't trade for prince anyway.

 

 

As far as trading or making an offer goes, I think that the brewers will make an offer, and deal with this like the sabbathia offer. The way I look at it is most of the people who are going to the brewers games, buying the jerseys and such aren't die hard baseball fanatics or followers like many of us are on the board. By making an offer, they'll make it look like the CC deal. "We tried to keep him, but our offer wasn't enough" blah blah blah.

 

If the front office does trade him, which they should do, there will be a huge uproar i think from the casual fan base who doesn't understand the value of prince in the trade market, and don't care about prospects, or what the team is going to look like a few years from it. When we traded JJ for example, how many of your friends that were casual fans were mad that he got traded? I for one had a ton, and although JJ isn't at the same level Prince is, I have to think that this is going through the minds of Doug and Mark.

 

If baseball was really just about the building the best team and winning, then the trade would happen probably this winter. Realistically, baseball in Milwaukee is about making money and drawing attendance.

[Invader3K]

I think you're under selling how intelligent the average baseball fan these days is.

 

Actually, my mom, who does not know all that much about professional baseball was asking me about Prince the other day. Her comment was, "They're really going to pay a first baseman $20 million a year?" I think the average fan knows it would be irresponsible to spend that much on a single position player.

 

This isn't like the days when we traded Sexson when he was our only really good player on the team. We will still have Braun, Gallardo, etc. I think Braun is more popular with most fans these days anyway, since he was actually willing to stick his money where his mouth is and sign a long term deal. People appreciate that, and know Prince probably isn't going to do the same thing.

[barbados73]

The team that I see as a dark horse is the Baltimore Orioles. They have shown a willingness to pay players in the past and are on the edge of fielding a good team. They also have a lot of good young SP to offer in the likes of Brian Matusz, Jake Arrieta, Chris Tillman among many others. The Orioles are the team that I would target being that they do have pitching to deal.

[nate82]

Nate,

 

Why on earth would we trade for Chris Davis? Smoak is going to take over pretty soon, and Davis has been terrible. That just really doesn't make sense, and with Smoak there at 1b they probably wouldn't trade for prince anyway.

One because the Brewers are not going to get back two very good prospects in a Fielder trade and two because Davis has high upside if he can find some plate discipline. Smoak taking over has no barring on the Rangers trading for Fielder. One of them would play 1B or DH I wouldn't be surprised to see Prince play the majority at DH and Smoak the majority at 1B with them switching every now and then. So Smoak at 1B really doesn't matter when you can play Prince or Smoak at either 1B or DH.

[TheCrew07]

If we aren't getting 2 top 7ish prospects from an organization, then there is no point in trading Prince. Davis is a horrible acquisition, we'd be better off moving Gamel over to 1B immediately.

[nate82]

If we aren't getting 2 top 7ish prospects from an organization, then there is no point in trading Prince. Davis is a horrible acquisition, we'd be better off moving Gamel over to 1B immediately.

You are forgetting the other player in that deal. Davis definitely wouldn't be the main piece it would be Perez. I actually think Gamel would be better at a corner OF spot than at 1B. There is some power lacking in the corner OF spots in the minors so Gamel can fill that void.

[TheCrew07]

Obviously I like Perez given what I posted in a different thread, but why would we want another Gomez? Another guy approaching 2 full years of service time who's been relatively putrid, in his first full season last year he couldn't post a league average OPS despite hitting 20+ HRs. I'm not a fan of Scheppers or anyone that won't sign with the team that originally drafts him, but I'd rather take back Scheppers and Perez than hope Davis into something at MLB.

 

In fact with Smoak already being called up by Texas, I'd rather focus on Baltimore and one of their top arms plus Josh Bell. Not that Smoak is tearing it up, but it appears Texas already made it's move.

[pete]

By making an offer, they'll make it look like the CC deal. "We tried to keep him, but our offer wasn't enough" blah blah blah.

 

Is this criticism? I don't think its an accurate representation of what happened, but I see similar versions.

 

If baseball was really just about the building the best team and winning, then the trade would happen probably this winter. Realistically, baseball in Milwaukee is about making money and drawing attendance.

 

He should be traded regardless of offer? If there is a constant in fandom, its unrealistic trade scenarios like Hardy could have netted a cost controlled top of the rotation starter. I also don't think they're putting a lesser team on the field to sell more tickets. Winning sells tickets.

[travisteck]

Is it criticism? Not really, but with the Yankees and other clubs in the mix, you know that it's a semi-accurate representation and we really didn't have much chance of signing him as it was.

 

And do I think he should be traded regardless? No. I'd love to see another 5 years of Brauny and Prince, but only if we could get prince at a reasonable price, which I really don't see happening. I'd like him traded this deadline(If we're out of it totally), or this winter to make sure we get a good haul, which would be a lot easier if he wasn't a half year rental.

 

As far as Hardy goes, I didn't think we were going to get a top of the rotation starter, and to be honest I like the trade still and think Gomez just needs to work some things out and will come along in time.

 

And I know that a winning team puts people in seats, that's a given, but the brewers will sell more tickets if prince is held on to until his contract expires. Don't get me wrong, I want to keep prince here as long as the next guy, but I think the front office will know pretty soon whether we have a chance or not to sign him, and if we don't I hope they make a good decision.

[BrewCrewForever]

I'm still holding out hope for a Fielder trade to Boston. While Tampa would be ideal to get Davis or Hellickson +, I still think if we could get Buchholz + from the Sox I would be very happy. Baseball-Reference.com had a nice post about Buchholz today after his good outing vs the Rays from yesterday. Link

[nate82]

I'm still holding out hope for a Fielder trade to Boston. While Tampa would be ideal to get Davis or Hellickson +, I still think if we could get Buchholz + from the Sox I would be very happy. Baseball-Reference.com had a nice post about Buchholz today after his good outing vs the Rays from yesterday. Link

The only way the Brewers are getting Buchholz is if the Brewers include Gallardo in the deal. There is no chance the Red Sox trade Buchholz + for Fielder without getting a good young MLB ready starter back in return and the only good young MLB ready pitcher the Brewers have is Gallardo. I don't see the Brewers trading both Prince and Gallardo and I don't see the Red Sox trading Buchholz either.

 

I really don't see the Red Sox as a fit for Prince at this time. If Ortiz continues to swing the bat like he has been then there is no reason for the Red Sox to even think about trading for Prince. I believe everyone should just forget about Buchholz completely because there is absolutely no way the Red Sox trade him.

 

I don't see the Red Sox as a fit if Ortiz continues playing the way he has been playing, I don't see the Rays as a fit either unless the Brewers take on a lot of Prince's salary for this year and next year, and I don't see the Orioles as a fit either why trade for someone when you are not going to be competitive for this year and the next and give up prospects when you can just attempt to sign the player when your team will be ready?

 

A wild card team could be the Nationals but I'm not sure they have the prospects to get the deal done though and no Strasburg is not available. I really like the Rangers as a possibility I really like some of their prospects that they have and I still wouldn't be against taking a player like Davis as long as the Brewers are getting someone like Martin Perez along with an Evan Reed and maybe someone like Wilmer Font or Mitch Moreland. That is probably still to much for Prince but all of those pieces would be a great fit for the Brewers and would give the Rangers an extra boost to their already good offense. Though Vlad is giving the Rangers enough production at the DH spot so I am not so sure the Rangers will make this move maybe if Smoak continues to struggle a little and they decide to send him back down they would make this deal. Then the Rangers would have Smoak and Prince or they could flip Prince in the off season for some prospects when the Red Sox dump Ortiz though the return probably won't be all that great.

[BrewCrewForever]

I don't see the Brewers trading both Prince and Gallardo

 

Of course not, neither do I.