Prince to Boston possibilities (Revised)

[alwz4gbp]

All right. No responses to the original post made me realize that my first proposal was out of line, so lets try again. Lets face it, Prince is not gonna stay here and we need to get something for him. Why not focus on Boston with a deal focused on Ellsbury, Bucholz and a few other pieces including a decent 1st base prospect? Ellsbury and Bucholz would be under control for what I'm guessing is 3-4 years, then factor in a few minor leaguers and that sounds like a pretty decent haul. In this scenario, I have Gamel at 1st.

An outfield of Braun, Gomez and Ellsbury sounds pretty damn good to me. Not to mention the speed factor. Add in Ellsbury SBs along with Gomez and Escobar and we are suddenly a small ball NL team with a pretty decent pitching staff. Gallardo, Wolf, Bucholz, Davis & ________ would be pretty decent.

There is no way we're gonna find another Prince, nor be able to replace his power so why not try to change the complexion of the club with essentially one move?

Hows this sound?

[Invader3K]

I doubt they'd give up both Ellsbury and Bucholz. I think at best you'd get Bucholz and maybe Lars Anderson (as a 1B replacement).

 

I'm not sold on Gamel at 1B. I just don't think he's going to put up the kind of power numbers you want in a first baseman.

[NievesNoNO]

Maybe if an extension was all ready in place for Prince to sign with Boston they'd give both, but if it's just to have him for a year and lose their CF and a strong armed pitching prospect I don't think they risk it.

[travisteck]

To be honest, I wouldn't really want Ellsbury on our team. If we did get him, I don't think gomez would really have a place anymore because you don't want to stick a good defensive outfielder in right in my opinion when he doesn't hit for a ton of power. I'd rather have the hair pulling moments of Corey's defense, and hope he puts the pop back into his bat and goes for 20/20 again.

 

If we were to trade prince, I think that it would have to be a lot of pitching we get back, or atleast a solid ace potential guy and prospect(s), which I still don't know if bucholz is.

[TooLiveBrew]

Ellsbury hasn't been a good defender in CF anyway, so if we did add him he'd be at a corner spot, assuming Gomez can hit enough to justify playing everyday. If we could get Buchholz for Prince, I think I'd be pretty happy.

[alwz4gbp]

Nieves,

I disagree that we couldn't get Bucholz and Ellsbury. Look at what they tossed on the table for Halliday last year and they knew that was only for a year and a half. I think its safe to assume that Prince is gonna end up in Boston, NY, LA etc. Why wouldn't they trade for him knowing full well they are gonna make a run at him in free agency anyway?

 

Invader, I think at this point Anderson is just a throw in in just about any trade. He is not "all that and a bag of chips anymore". I saw one article that labeled him a border line bust. As far as Gamel at first, I think he'd be just fine there. I don't get caught up in the whole "You HAVE to have power from this position or that position" thing. If the guy can hit and contribute, then thats fine with me. Mark Grace wasn't a power hitter and he had a pretty good career although he was know for his glovework. The same can be said for Olerud, Overbay, etc. I understand that 1st base has always been a position of power but its not written in stone.

 

Travis, I guess part of my argument above pertains to you as well. Yes, the corner outfield spots are usually postions of power but whats the matter with having a speedster in RF who can steal a ton of bases and score a lot of runs?

 

These are just my opinions fellas.

[804Sox]

Nieves,

I disagree that we couldn't get Bucholz and Ellsbury. Look at what they tossed on the table for Halliday last year and they knew that was only for a year and a half. I think its safe to assume that Prince is gonna end up in Boston, NY, LA etc. Why wouldn't they trade for him knowing full well they are gonna make a run at him in free agency anyway?

 

Invader, I think at this point Anderson is just a throw in in just about any trade. He is not "all that and a bag of chips anymore". I saw one article that labeled him a border line bust. As far as Gamel at first, I think he'd be just fine there. I don't get caught up in the whole "You HAVE to have power from this position or that position" thing. If the guy can hit and contribute, then thats fine with me. Mark Grace wasn't a power hitter and he had a pretty good career although he was know for his glovework. The same can be said for Olerud, Overbay, etc. I understand that 1st base has always been a position of power but its not written in stone.

 

Travis, I guess part of my argument above pertains to you as well. Yes, the corner outfield spots are usually postions of power but whats the matter with having a speedster in RF who can steal a ton of bases and score a lot of runs?

 

These are just my opinions fellas.

1. The Halladay and Fielder situations are completely different and I don't think you could get Buch and Ells for many of the reasons that you mention. First, those two were not offered together in a package for Halladay, as I recall. Second, the Sox would not likely trade for either player unless they had an extension agreed to in principle, and Halladay costs a lot less money to lock up than Prince. Third, it's likely that Prince will got to FA regardless and loof for a huge contract - that's just the feeling that I get. This would work against the team aquiring him. Fourth, while Prince is certainly among the best 1B in MLB, both today and for the near future, there are a number of very good hitting 1B compared to a limited number of Ace pitchers. Fifth, because only a limited number of teams will be in the market for Prince when he hits FA, there's little incentive for the Sox to trade for him when they're one of a few that could afford to pay him. Why give up the prospects? Sixth (and this is not based on any inside info), I just personally don't see Prince as a good fit. He's going to be really expensive, and the Sox already have a very good 1B signed to a reasonable deal and a couple intriguing 1B prospects in Anderson and Rizzo. Everyone talks about moving Youkilis to 3B, which he can play decently now, but I just don't see him being a good defensive 3B in a year or 2 as he ages. PLus, i think Iglesias will be ready by the middle of '11 for SS, and Lowrie, Scutaro, Beltre/other FA will all be candidates for 3B (not great options, but tolerable). Prince would be a decent candidate to DH when Papi retires, though.

 

2. Amazing how fast people have turned on Lars. He tore up AA in the 2nd half as a 20, and then had a bad season as a 21 yro in AA. There are certainly reasons for concern. He strikes out a lot, has a line-drive stroke that doesn't generate a lot of lift, and he sometimes tends to roll over the ball and hit grounders when he tries to get lift. He's also an incredibly intelligent, thoughtful, and introspective person, who may over-analyze his own mistakes. However, he still has elite plate discipline, is a reasonable defender, has a great frame, is very young for his level, and has had a track record of tremendous success prior to this past year. Still a good prospect in my mind, and certainly not a throw in. Plenty of Brewer prospects had down years, but I don;t think anyone would consider Taylor Green, Lorenzo Cain, etc. "throw ins", and none were the caliber prospect that Lars was last season.

[ILuvDaBush]

I'd take Rizzo over Anderson. The kid is just now scratching his power potential and he's a superb fielder. I know that sounds like the Big O but this kid could become Lance Berkman.

[The Truth]

804Sox's reply makes sense and speaks to why the Brewers should consider trading Fielder at the deadline this year in order to maximize trade value. 1.5 years of Prince has much more value than a half season of Prince. And yes, there are a limited amount of teams that can sign Prince but thats all the more reason why the Red Sox will need to aquire him: to keep him out of pinstripes. Fielder as a DH in that already dangerous Yankee lineup pretty much decimates the Red Sox's chances for a division title

 

The Brewers should start the trade talks and let teams like the Red Sox and Yankees try to out-bid each other

[Tedaldtada]

The Red Sox are just not a good fit. They love their prospects more then anyone else, and never seem to offer full value for players. Theo seems much more concerned with winning every trade then doing something that could be mutually beneficial. To think they could have had Halladay (with the same extension he got in PHI) for only Bucholz/Kelley and Westmoreland/Ellsbury/Anderson/Tazawa/whoever is pretty amazing, and just laughable that they didn't take it. Prince is no Roy Halladay in terms of WAR, but he is still an impact bat that probably would make a huge difference for Boston if they acquired him.

 

I think Melvin should really hold tight in any Prince negotiations. Everyone wants a Teix deal, but that deal has aged very well for TEX. Feliz was essentially the fourth guy added to the deal. Andrus was only 18 or 19 at the time, and no one really thought he would be anything special (or even acceptable) with the bat. Salty was the big piece, and he is adequate now at best. Harrison is a decent pitcher at this point but very unproven and has had a lot of injuries. Of course, Teix was/is one of the best 1B in the league, so it seemed pretty fair at the time.

 

If Melvin is talking to Boston, I want Bucholz, Bowden/Anderson/Rizzo/something similar, and Fuentes. Boston will extend him, that is a given. I find it very hard to believe that Boston won't be the highest bidder come FA anyways. Maybe they could get a discount this way.

[MNBrew]

I don't favor trying to trade Prince at this point. However, if/when that time comes, Ellsbury & Buchholz should be the core of the package but no way the sum. Would you expect the Cardinals to ONLY ask for those two if they were looking to trade Pujols? Granted, Prince doesn't have the longevity or the consistently killer BA that Albert does, but he's not far behind overall.

 

If they consider trading Prince, a king's ransom (no pun intended) ought to be coming back to Milwaukee in the deal. A stud starter still only plays 4x every 3 weeks. A stud hitter plays 18-20x. No comparison.

[sheetskout]

I think you have to try for a package containing Ryan Westmoreland.

[apirk]

Westmoreland just had brain surgery

 

I'd love to see the Brewers get Ellsbury, don't think it will happen though.

[nate82]

Ellsbury would be a bad player to trade for the Brewers already have a glut of OF in the minors Cain, Schafer, Gindl, Gamel, and Lawrie. All of those players could or are OF at this time. Ellsbury makes very little sense organization wise.

[The Truth]

Would you expect the Cardinals to ONLY ask for those two if they were looking to trade Pujols? Granted, Prince doesn't have the longevity or the consistently killer BA that Albert does, but he's not far behind overall.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think Prince is close to Pujols in any stretch of the imagination. Pujols is one of the greatest players of all-time, a consistently great fielder and not nearly as streaky.

 

Prince is a perennial all-star and a very good player but he is nowhere close to the infielder or hitter that Pujols is and is much more streaky

 

Pujols' career stats are a .334 BA, a .427 OBP, and a 1.056 OPS

Prince's career stats are a .284 BA, a .381 OBP, and a .928 OPS

[The Truth]

Prince is much more comparable to Mark Teixeira

 

Teixeira's career stats are a .288 BA, a .377 OBP, and a .918 OPS

 

I would say Prince is a better HR hitter than Teixeira, too: Teixeira had 43 HR's in '05, otherwise he's never hit 40 HR's in a season

[TooLiveBrew]

A stud starter still only plays 4x every 3 weeks. A stud hitter plays 18-20x. No comparison.

 

But a stud SP is much, much, much harder to find than a stud hitter. Not to mention that a pitcher is involved in far more of a game's outcomes when he *is* playing. Pitching is more valuable, justifiably so, and likely always will be.

[Kelbysdaddy]

although i think boston would be a good trade partner they seem to be much more interested in adrian gonzalez then prince. the angels or rangers would probably be a better match. dodgers, mariners, and giants have also been said to be looking for a player like prince. unless seattle wants to give up dustin ackley but dont really have the pitching that the brewers would look for. the dodgers dont seem to match up either. giants have madison bumgarner but his is "untouchable" (but i believe no player is). white sox maybe looking for a slugging 1B as well(i believe konerko's contract is up after this season) and dan hudson, tyler flowers, and brent morel would be a sweet package. just a few thoughts. feel free to call me dumb and whatnot.

[apirk]

Right now I wouldn't even touch Bumgarner because there is something wrong with him, I'd like that White Sox package.

 

AS far as what the Brewers have in their system for OF, none of those guys will make an impact like Ellsbury could.

[endaround]

All of them could. Ellsbury is a career .298/.350/.415 hitter with questionable defense. And he's already got over 2 years of service time and is about to get costly.

[apirk]

Based on what? Yes they are all cheaper but not one of them can do what ellsbury can do on the base paths. Cain will never come close to those numbers if he can even become an everyday player and we've seen what Gamel can do. I like Gindl and Lawrie but lets see how they do at AA first.

[TooLiveBrew]

Cain will never come close to those numbers if he can even become an everyday player and we've seen what Gamel can do.

 

Cain absolutely could come close to those numbers, & no we haven't really seen yet what Gamel can do at the MLB level

[MNBrew]

Cain will never come close to those numbers if he can even become an everyday player and we've seen what Gamel can do.

 

Cain absolutely could come close to those numbers, & no we haven't really seen yet what Gamel can do at the MLB level

I agree w/ TLB on Gamel, but not on Cain. While Cain could come close to Ellsbury's numbers, there's no guarantee that he would.

 

Ellsbury's basically a .300 hitter w/ a .350 OBP, great speed that's good for 50-60 SBs or more, 25 2B's, and 5-10 3B's. Ellsbury's proven those numbers legit over a couple-plus MLB seasons.

 

Cain still needs to prove himself healthy & productive enough to earn a big-league callup before you can really start to project matching MLB numbers in that stratosphere. I hope all of it happens, but it's so far from being a sure thing.

[tyguy20204]

It sounds like you DO agree with TLB. He didn't guarantee anything with Cain, he simply made a comment about his ceiling. I don't think Cain will ever steal that many bases, but those other numbers could be very easily envisioned.

[MNBrew]

So often on this site, statements like TLB's come across as though such projections are a total certainty, and therefore a prospect's got the same or greater value as a proven MLBer. True, TLB wasn't making that assertion, but you hear that sort of thing often enough that instinct takes the leap for you.

 

To me, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the OF in Brew Town someday were Braun, Ellsbury, & Cain. Several things would have to happen for that to be possible, of course, and the power traditionally associated w/ RF would have to come from elsewhere. But between 1B (Gamel?), Weeks, Braun, & McGehee, there'd still be plenty of certifiable power around the lineup.

 

Anyway....