Rotation battle

[TheCrew07]

Hmm, so I guess Butler didn't do anything above AA in his career? Are we going to be down to our 9th pitcher in May? So we should keep Suppan and let a better pitcher go based solely on the idea that we need starting pitcher depth? I'm sorry but your arguments here are a tad absurd and you're missing the point I was making.

 

We are past the point of having to keep depth around for depth's sake, not that I was ever keen on that concept anyway. We have legitimate starting pitcher depth that has reached the levels where the MLB team can reach down and pluck those young men They are already on the 40 man, they have already used options, there's no point in prodding the scrap heap or making moves based solely for depth anymore. We have quality talented depth for the first time in forever, hopefully it only gets better from here.

 

I get the whole idea of Suppan going to the pen, I don't think it's a bad idea in theory, I just don't think it's going to happen. My gut feeling is that if Suppan stays, he's in the rotation. If Suppan is our 8th best starter and does end up in the pen, how many starts is he going to actually make this season? Are those 2-4 starts worth keeping him around for? Why not reach down and grab a Butler, or Rivas, or Rogers instead and save the roster spot for use elsewhere? The youngsters will be able to give you more innings because they are already stretched out and they at least have talent and room to grow. The 25 man roster should have the most productive 25 players in the organization on it, it's not a place to stash just in case type depth, that's what AAA is for.

 

I really don't care who did what as a pitcher last season, this is a roster decision that should be made on talent in the short term and team controllable years in the long term. If my choices are Bush or Suppan based on team control, I'm keeping Bush. If my choices are Parra or Suppan based on performance, I'm taking Parra because I'm not ready to give up on his talent yet. I'd much rather have a Narveson or Braddock in the pen than a Stetter as well, I'm not a fan of situational lefties... give me relief pitchers than can go multiple innings and get hitters out from either side of the plate. Removing the LOOGY from the roster opens up another spot as well. If Narvy ends up in the rotation, then you call up Braddock to fill that role for as long as it takes. I don't see the reason for being hung up on guys solely because they have experience.

 

I don't care where a guy ends up proving himself because eventually everyone has to sink or swim at the MLB level, I don't think it hurts anything to give talented youngsters a chance to come up and pitch a couple of games even though they haven't proven anything yet. In fact, I find this whole notion of "proving themselves" to be very superficial, basically what the poster is really saying when they use that phrase is that they don't think the prospect is a viable option. I'd rather challenge the young man and see what he's got and how he responds than waste roster space on a just in case player, success at AA is nice and all but as I said before ultimately everyone has to make it as an MLB player anyway. I'd give our truly talented prospects an early opportunity to sink or swim rather than aging veteran.

 

Keeping Suppan around for the rotation if he proves to be our least effective starter is similar to keeping Hall around to play 3B just in case McGehee is ineffective or gets hurt when we already have Heether and Gamel who are capable and on the 40 man.

[logan82]

Hmm, so I guess Butler didn't do anything above AA in his career?

 

If I am not mistaken, Josh Butler hasn't pitched much if at all this spring. My exact comment on him from a page back

Butler may be a possibility when he starts pitching again

This is the most recent news I could find.

 

Pitching prospect Josh Butler remains limited to flat-ground throwing

because of an inflamed right elbow. Macha said there is still hope that

Butler could be ready in time for the start of the Minor League season.

So we should keep Suppan and let a better pitcher go

 

Who are we letting go under my plan?

 

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory, I just don't think it's going to happen. My gut feeling is that if Suppan stays, he's in the rotation.

 

I hope if Suppan stays he isn't anything more than our 6th or 7th starter. We could easily be into our 6th or 7th starter in May for at least a few games. All it takes is a little arm soreness.

 

FIP doesn't work well for all pitchers. It ignores to much. Manny Parra in particular gets harder than the average pitcher. The curious case of Manny Parra.

[Ennder]

If Suppan stays and we actually lose one of the other guys I think it is a complete disaster. If he stays and ends up in the rotation to start the season it is probably a mistake. If he gets released it probably is a mistake but a minor one. But if we release Bush, Parra or Narveson and keep Suppan it would be just a terrible move, especially given how the spring has played out.

[JonnyLungs]

I'd rather see Kameron Loe or Marco Estrada given a shot before Jeff Suppan.

[pete]

I don't know if Maas has a link up to it yet, but AW talks about Soup in his latest radio appearance. Going on memory, he talks about him being one of Mark A's favorite player and didn't think it was possible that he would end up in the bullpen. What AW says may be true, but if he keeps getting hit hard, maybe that would tip things. Having said that he'll probably do really well next time out.

 

http://wssp.radiotown.com..._Show/031910_witrado.mp3

[RockCoCougars]

I don't know if Maas has a link up to it yet, but AW talks about Soup in his latest radio appearance. Going on memory, he talks about him being one of Mark A's favorite player and didn't think it was possible that he would end up in the bullpen. What AW says may be true, but if he keeps getting hit hard, maybe that would tip things. Having said that he'll probably do really well next time out.

 

http://wssp.radiotown.com/audio/The_Big_Show/031910_witrado.mp3http://wssp.radiotown.com..._Show/031910_witrado.mp3

He must be one of Mark A's favorites...either that or has pictures of someone doing something incriminating. Look how he's been treated with kid gloves, while when others struggle, they are DFA'd or sent to Nashville immediately. If Suppan is kept, I hope his 'welcome' on Opening Day is twice as loud as the one Wes Helms received. Not that Soup is a bad guy, but he's a bad player, and a message needs to be sent to management.

[theavrock]

Yes, lets make sure we boo him before he throws a pitch in a regular season game. Awesome idea!

Suppan is getting rocked this spring training, but if he gets run out there on the mound its not his fault he is out there. He is a player doing the best he can. It's not like he is going out there trying to throw meatballs. His skill set is diminished, but if management makes the idiotic move to throw him out there as one of our rotation regulars, I think booing him before he has even performed in the regular season is about as stupid as it gets.

[monty57]

Yeah, I wouldn't boo him for going out and playing his hardest. I may boo Melvin, Mark A and Macha for putting him there, but not Suppan.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't care that he is 'trying his hardest'. The fact is, he is basically stealing from the Brewers as the highest paid player on the team, and deserves to be booed off the field if he makes the team. Sheets gets booed off the field in his last start after pitching with a torn muscle in his arm, shortly after Suppan was hidden on the D.L., somehow though Sheets comes off as the lazy out of condition one, while Suppan is 'trying really hard'. On another note, what exactly were the injuries that kept Suppan out parts of the past two seasons? I'm not so sure anyone really knows.

 

I'm hoping it gets so ugly with the fans that the team is forced to do something with him. Most of us have had enough. I don't care how much money was spent, the guy has cost the team games, and possibly even playoff appearances due to his albatross of a contract. Yes, the brass was stupid to give him that contract and to keep him around, but he hasn't lived up to his end of the deal in the least. Seriously, I don't think booing will affect his performance in the least. Can he get any worse? No way would anyone give back $13 million or whatever, but the honorable thing to do would be for him to retire.

[Ennder]

On another note, what exactly were the injuries that kept Suppan out parts of the past two seasons? I'm not so sure anyone really knows.

 

2008 was an elbow injury and 2009 was a strained ribcage that he hurt while batting. I haven't really seen anyone but you suggest that he wasn't really hurt and there is pretty much no way last years was since we had no rotation depth at the time and the team collapsed while Suppan and Bush were hurt. Not to mention they had an MRI done on him and it showed a strain, I doubt they were doctoring the results. He also pitched significantly worse after each injury.

[Funketown]

I don't care that he is 'trying his hardest'. The fact is, he is basically stealing from the Brewers as the highest paid player on the team, and deserves to be booed off the field if he makes the team.

If Suppan is stealing from the Brewers, isn't Attanasio stealing from Gallardo as well?

 

Mark Attanasio, the Milwaukee Brewers management, and Jeff Suppan agreed to that contract. When long-term contracts are agreed upon, risks and benefits are thoroughly considered. Some contracts which look completely asinine at the time of signing (Ibanez) turn out to be pretty decent, while others can completely backfire. General Managers generally understand these things, and so do agents.

 

Doug Melvin understands that the Suppan signing was a bust. Mark Attanasio is a smart enough guy to realize this as well.

 

I just don't see what booing Suppan accomplishes.

[jhart05]

Yeah, really. If you want to boo someone for the money Suppan makes, boo Attanasio or Melvin.

 

That's like taking something back to Best Buy and yelling at the manager when your Sony stereo breaks.

[joepepsi]

fwiw, Suppan had 12 quality starts last year. He had another 5 starts where he went 5 innings and gave up 3 ER or less. I realize that's hardly outstanding, but to insist he's terrible isn't really true. More than half his starts he went at least 5 innings and gave his offense a reasonable chance to win.

[endaround]

Most pitchers who can pitch in the major leagues are like that. If they exploded every single time out they wouldn't pitch. All pitchers have great games and all pitchers have games they can't get out of the 2nd inning. The difference between good and bad pitchers are the number of each.

[joepepsi]

I understand that.

 

But there's an attitude on this topic that anybody no wait, everybody is better than Suppan. I hate defending him, and prefer he's the odd man out in the rotation if that's what's deserved, but his detractors seem to think he's the worst pitcher ever. He's not.

 

Given his ERA was 4.43 before his injury developed, it's just possible he can provide acceptable value as a back of the rotation starter. Maybe not $14.5 million worth, but some value just the same.

[local hero]

Good afternoon everyone,

 

First post here, but I'm glad I chose the most imperative topic in regards to the teams performance.

 

First, "quality starts" are right behind pitching "wins" as one of the most overrated (and , in the case of "quality starts", most convoluted and misleading) major statistics in the game, and, perhaps, all of sports. Surely, in the case of QS's, derived by an agent to bolster the resume of a pitcher reeking of mediocrity (which, by the way, is where a 4.50 era resides these days)?

 

3 earned runs in 6 innings is "quality" pitching then? A 4.50 ERA is a hallmark of a quality starter? Good grief. This should be shunned as quickly as it was accepted as a valid measuring stick for starting pitching.

 

But, I digress. To the point, placing Jeff Suppan on the mound for a ML team at this point significantly hinders your ability to win a game.

 

Is there a guarantee that Narveson and Bush bolster your chances of winning significantly? Of course not. That said, do I believe there's a significant chance it would mean another 4+ wins over a 162 game season/30 starts? Yes, I do. And those 4 wins will almost certainly be crucial to the chances of this team playing baseball in late September.

 

Nothing last year or this spring indicates anything but a continued, measurable declination in Suppan's output. To me, it borders on insanity to continue to place him in a role where he has proven to be rabidly unsuccessful.

 

Again, there are no guarantees, but to believe after looking at this scenario holistically that Suppan is a valid option for this 5 man rotation at this point, has me beyond scratching my head.

 

Respectfully,

James

[local hero]

I understand that.

 

But there's an attitude on this topic that anybody no wait, everybody is better than Suppan. I hate defending him, and prefer he's the odd man out in the rotation if that's what's deserved, but his detractors seem to think he's the worst pitcher ever. He's not.

 

Given his ERA was 4.43 before his injury developed, it's just possible he can provide acceptable value as a back of the rotation starter. Maybe not $14.5 million worth, but some value just the same.

Well, I for one certainly do not feel he's the worst pitcher, "ever". Just that

there's two superior options on the team.

 

James

[logan82]

I don't think anybody is putting Suppan in the rotation without injuries to at least 1 or 2 other pitchers except for maybe Macha.

 

4 wins would be a drastic difference in pitchers. A 3.00 ERA vs 5.00 ERA pitcher over 180 innings.

 

A 4.50 ERA starter would be roughly league average or close to it, not horrible. NL - 4.32 ERA/AL - 4.63 ERA/MLB - 4.46 ERA

 

The argument is really Suppan vs Villanueva in the pen as the long man and where Suppan fits in the pecking order for the 6th+ starter spots. At least for us message board guys. Suppan may be in the discussion for the rotation in Macha's mind. In that case I think his mind is warped.

[kramnoj]

3 earned runs in 6 innings is "quality" pitching then? A 4.50 ERA is a hallmark of a quality starter?

 

It should be remembered that 3 in 6 is the minimum qualifier. A good portion of QS, even from Suppan, are better than that. And yes, 4.50 ERA for today is quality, if quality equals around average or better.

[local hero]

You just made my point in regards to QS's. 4.50 is "average" (actually worse in the NL), and NOT indicative of quality. This becomes especially more valid when you consider how "better" pitchers ERA's are hurt as they go a bit further than 5-6 innings in games.

 

Not sure where or how you extrapolated a 2 run difference in ERA over a season for 4 wins. It simply could equate to a handful of slightly better starts...lets call it 10 runs over 5 starts/30 innings. Still significant, but not to the tune of 3 and 5 ERA. Leave everything else static and there you go. I actually believe it would actually be MORE beneficial to erase Suppan in this particular case, due to his tendency to come up with pitching lines that defy belief.

 

Last, I read this entire thread, and I can say with 100% confidence that EVERYone here is NOT entirely united on the Suppan front.

 

Even if that IS the case, that still has absolutely zero bearing on what this team will do anyway, and, at this point, I'm more confident than not that Sup will see a spot in the rotation.

 

Then, just chalk this up as venting.

 

James

[local hero]

3 earned runs in 6 innings is "quality" pitching then? A 4.50 ERA is a hallmark of a quality starter?

 

It should be remembered that 3 in 6 is the minimum qualifier. A good portion of QS, even from Suppan, are better than that. And yes, 4.50 ERA for today is quality, if quality equals around average or better.

good luck finding a thesaurus that finds "average" and "quality" synonymous.

 

Last time I checked, slightly more than half of "quality starts" were either losses or ND's for the pitcher.

Odd how such "quality" would yield sub .500 results?

 

Jeff Suppan: 4.68 ERA 135-136 (with 4 of those seasons on an offensive juggernaut to boot).

 

James

[endaround]

4 wins is a huge amount. A 4 win player is an All Star or close to it.

[local hero]

4 wins is a huge amount. A 4 win player is an All Star or close to it.

Not when the player being compared to him wins 7 games (who did that last year?).

 

NOTHING indicates a considerable change in output. Really, you could argue the converse better, thus far.

 

The power of relativity.

 

James

[logan82]

Last, I read this entire thread, and I can say with 100% confidence that EVERYone here is NOT entirely united on the Suppan front.

 

All but maybe one or two would prefer Suppan out of the rotation barring injury. Other than that, it is arguing over where he fits in the pecking order.

 

10 runs is generally considered one win. A 3.00 ERA pitcher gives up 60 runs over 180 innings. A 5.00 ERA pitcher gives up 100 runs over 180 innings. 100-60=40 40/10=4

[local hero]

^ Just let Braden Looper and Ben Sheets know. Causation with the above is impossible to prove. Far too many interdependent and independent variables working with and against one another.

 

09' example: de la rosa 16 wins 4.38 ERA

Lincecum: 15 wins 2.48 ERA

 

James