Next asinine, completely illogical FA/Trade addition

[TooLiveBrew]

So, in line with the completely unrealistic off-season additions being discussed on this forum (see Jason Schmidt, Carl Crawford, Vernon Wells, Aramis Ramirez), I thought I'd put up a thread dealing exclusively with this topic.

 

How about trading Turnbow for Vlad Guerrero? Maybe Davis for Joe Mauer! Heck, while we're at it, Prince, Rickie, Braun, Gallardo, Sheets, and Hall for Ortiz, Manny, and Babe Ruth!

[colbyjack]

Instead of dissing almost every single idea brought up heading into the offseason in a negative fashion, why not offer your own ideas as to how the Brewers should improve the ballclub for the 2007 season?

 

EDIT: And if you check out the $60 million dollar challenge thread a few posts down in this forum you will see that adding someone like Jason Schmidt isn't that asinine. If the payroll is going to be $60 million, the Brewers do have plenty of wiggle room to make an impact acquisition this offseason.

[TooLiveBrew]

I have mentioned my ideas, and I do sincerely apologize for my negativity. I just am frustrated! I honestly feel like there is no viable FA answer for us. I wish people could recognize the reality of the Brewers' situation. Guys like Aramis Ramirez, Soriano, Schmidt, and very, very tangibly, Carlos Lee, simply do not want to be here.

 

I think, had we offered Lee a deal that didn't insult his FA value, he'd still be here. Our offer averaged out to $12 mil/year. He's probably gonna get more like 15-18/yr. That's a serious, signifcant jump in pay! I think the offer boiled down to what Brewer fans noticed in 2006: Lee just isn't worth whatever money he's going to get -- he's worth close to it, but not all the way.

 

He's a nice slugger, but doesn't get on base at a consistent enough rate to justify top-notch money. If he's gonna be your #2 or #1b hitter, and you can justify overpaying slghtly, he's a total find (think Cleveland Indians). Otherwise, you're setting your franchise back a few years by handcuffing it financially. See our Milwaukee Brewers' strategy. I'm happy we didn't bend over to his numbers, and were realistic. I just want our fans to be realistic too!

 

I'm really, genuinely sorry for being an ass. Glad you could point it out to me! Our guys are solid. I think our team is at least as good as last year's with the guys we have, and if we are able to add another starting pitcher, we'll have more than young improvement to laud as reason for being markedly better.

[colbyjack]

I don't think you're being a jerk TooLiveBrew, because quite frankly I agree with most of your sentiments. I do think the contract extension the Brewers offered to Lee was more than generous, and if a team ends up paying Lee more than the Brewers 4-year, $48 million dollar offer, they will in the long run regret it for the reasons you and so many others have pointed out.

 

Again, it's easy to shoot down others ideas, I'm just trying to promote you to offer your own proposals as to what the Brewers should do if you don't think they're going to be players for a lot of the names being tossed around. They do have money to play with, and I'm interested in hearing how you think they will spend those resources.

[TooLiveBrew]

I feel so good about our pitching rotation of 5 coming from the group of:

 

Sheets, Cappy, Bush, Davis, ZachJack, Villanueva, Gallardo, Inman.

 

I feel GREAT about the rotation if it includes a proven starter -- probably not off the FA market, let's trust Doug E. Doug again, he's given no reason not to!

 

Our bullpen is one established, dependable arm away from being a strength of the organization.

 

I like our position guys, too. Fielder, Weeks, Hall, Hardy, (hopefully) Koskie & Cirillo, Miller, Rivera, Hart, Gross, Jenks, Clark, Gwynn

 

I don't know who, and I don't know from where, but this squad is one or two guys away from being really, REALLY good. I guess that's part of the magic. Can we find a slugging OFer who wants to be part of a resurgance? I hope so. Is there a nice answer out there at 3B? Hopefully. I just don't want to see us put our chips in the marginal star basket.

[TooLiveBrew]

Colbyjack: I don't think that, monetarily, adding a Schmidt is out of the question. I think the intangibles take it away. If he were 27, it's a different story! But the man's in his 30s, and doesn't have time to wait around anymore

 

Quite frankly, I think he'd be an idiot to do so! Put yourself in Schmidt's shoes -- Yankees & many other established, star-studded teams in need of a stud RHP knocking on your door, offering you and able to offer you so much more $$$ than the Crew. It's not pessimism, it's just reality - anyone would take the better deal on both fronts

 

That said, if we land Schmidt, I'll be the first to make fun of me in the 'Jason Schmidt makes TooLiveBrew look like the @#%$ he is' thread

[trwi7]

Quote:

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If he were 27, it's a different story!

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If he were 27 he'd totally be out of the question and nobody would be discussing it. Since he's older he's likely to get less years and less money than if he were 27.

[TooLiveBrew]

Think honestly and objectively about the "put yourself in his shoes" notion trwi7. I agree that Schmidt at 27 is even MORE out of our league, but I bet he wants to go somewhere where consistent winning and playoff contention is not an aspiration

[sbrylski]

I don't think it's totally out of the question that we land a free agent, but it has to be in the right circumstances. We probably could of had Washburn last year, though I didn't want him.

 

We have an owner willing to increase payroll now, so it is possible to lure the right guy in for a comparable contract to offers from elsewhere. But yes, very unlikely.

 

There seems to be a general attitude on this board that we need outside help, or at least those people are more vocal about it. I don't necessarily agree with that. People talk about how we need that stud hitter in our lineup and like TooLiveBrew pointed out, that player is Prince. Stick with our youth movement, and aquire role players to fill our the team. Weeks - Fielder - Hall - Hart - Braun could make a deadly middle of the lineup in two or three years.

 

With that said, Mark A seems set on making a bit of a splash with a signing/trade, and Melvin seems to pull off a deal per offseason.

[igor67]

I have to disagree with the your feelings tooLiveBrew. The lesson of the Tigers has to be show me the money. We have the ability to show someone the money, and more importantly it's the right time to make that type of move to change this from a team that's right around .500 to one that's a winner. It's hard for me to believe that players would not think the Brewers 07 looks more promising then the 03 Tigers when being willing to play for the team.

[TooLiveBrew]

Ok igor, I like your point http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif Looking at that '03 Tigers roster, I think even I would have turned down a deal to play for them. What ever made Pudge decide that Detroit was the place for him is beyond me. But, that's the kind of signing it sounds like people are hoping for/banking on. It seems it may even be necessary.

 

I think this offseason is a really tough one for us as far as the FA market. The players available are garnering MAJOR attention from the top teams -- moreso than normal, mostly due to the slim pickins of the market. Matsuzaka's presence may actually help us, since he's attracting so much attention.

 

In addition to the Crew, I follow the Yankees very closely. They have MAJOR interest in Matsuzaka, Zito, & Schmidt (not to mention Mussina). Their offense is such that they don't need to worry about their position players at all. There is also a lot of talk about Sheffield --

 

They picked up his 2007 option, and did so simply to trade him. The only talk as to their target in that trade is a starting pitcher. Their 5-man rotation as of today is Johnson, Mussina (if they pick up his $17M option), Wang .... ______, & ______. Two spots wide open -- and if one is filled through the Sheff trade, it seems they will need to choose between one of the three FA pitchers. I could definitely see them not picking up Moose's option, but I doubt it. The Boss tends to stick with guys as consistent as he has been.

 

My bet is they land Matsuzaka & Zito, leaving Schmidt as the odd man out. If they don't get Zito, the thought is that it would be because he's just a "Cali" guy, so then Schmidt would be the obvious choice. This thought is based on the idea that Sheff would net them a nice middle reliever.

 

I just see the bidding for Schmidt (if it's not Yankees) being between Bos., LAD, LAA, maybe Seattle. I just don't think we can offer the dollars those teams (esp. the first 3) can -- see our offer to Carlos Lee

[paul253]

I like that proposed offer for Ortiz, Ramirez and the Babe. Do you think that package would get it done?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

I think the best part is that they can go lefty-right-lefty, and give Ned Yost that "sequence" he likes in his offense http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[MNBrew]

I believe the ONLY real reason Pudge signed with Detroit back then is that they were the ONLY team that would give him the $10M/yr., multi-year contract he wanted.

 

The Brewers were reportedly pursuing him either that year or the year before, when he signed on with the Marlins, but wouldn't touch the price tag.

[Invader3K]

I agree with the general sentiment that any big name the Brewers add this off-season will probably be through trade, and not free agency. The free agent market hasn't been too favorable to the Brewers for the last few years, and I don't see why that trend won't continue. Mark Attanasio is probably going to open up his pocket book this winter, but not so much that we'll be able to sign some huge stud that the team needs.

[monty57]

While teams can always use more starting pitching, I think TLB hit it on the head that the likelihood of Schmidt or Zito becoming a Brewer (especially Zito) is basically zero, and I am comfortable with next year's rotation of Sheets, Capuano, Bush, Davis, Carlos V (or one of the other AAA guys if they can beat him out).

 

Therefore, the one FA I'd make a strong push for would be Aramis Ramirez. It may seem illogical to get a player at a position where we currently have Braun, Hall and Koskie, but here's my logic.

 

If Koskie is healthy, he has a long enough track record that we could trade him. He has nothing to prove except that he is healthy. If, God forbid, he is not healthy, then we'll have more need of a 3B next year, and all we can do is hope that he will be able to bounce back and live a normal life.

 

Signing Ramirez to a long term deal will solidify most every position for the foreseeable future with above average talent at most positions:

 

1B Prince

2B Weeks

3B Ramirez

SS Hardy

RF Hart

CF Hall

LF Braun

 

Catcher would then be the only position without a long-term solution locked up.

 

I'm not an advocate of players switching positions, but Hall seems like he will be able to handle the switch to CF, and Braun, by many accounts, is a great LF candidate.

 

For next season, we would probably need to start the season with a Gross/Mench platoon in LF, bringing Braun up when he's proven himself ready.

 

I feel that this one move would put us in a good position to be playoff candidates for years to come, so I think we should make every reasonable effort to make it happen. Maybe there is no chance, but I think we should at least give it a shot.

[thefutureishere2006]

"The Brewers were reportedly pursuing him either that year or the year before, when he signed on with the Marlins, but wouldn't touch the price tag."

 

 

Does anyone else get sick when you hear that statement?

[TooLiveBrew]

Wouldn't it be nice to sign Aramis Ramirez? Unfortunately, I'd put him in the Zito/Schmidt/Soriano category. That guy can hit like a mofo, and isn't bad in the field. I think he's WAAAYYYY out of our price range. That's unfortunate, because I think he, as mentioned, fits right into our short and long-term plans.

 

Sadly, I don't have a strong counter-suggestion for the FA market. I think we're going to have to wait for Doug-e-doug to work his magic yet again. Which, by the way, I feel GREAT about relying upon http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[monty57]

TLB, you could be right, but in the blurb I read, Ramirez said (A) He'd like to stay in Chicago (B) He doesn't know what he's asking for, but it'll be over the $11MM he was due to get.

 

It doesn't sound like he's "playing hardball" (pardon the pun), but rather that he (rightly) figures that he's worth more on the open market than the $11MM he would have received over each of the next two seasons. My guess on (A) is that he wants to keep them in the negotiations and doesn't want to alienate the fans.

 

If the Brewers front office felt that they could afford $12MM/year over the next four for Lee, is there any more wiggle room, and would $14-15MM per year net them Ramirez. The next thing to look at is would the $14-15MM/year cause them to lose any of Fielder, Weeks, Hardy, Hall, Hart, Capuano, Sheets, etc during the term of that contract, and would it be worth it?

 

There's a lot of "ifs" in there, but I think it's worth pursuing. The fact that the Yankees (ARod), Red Sox (Lowell) Cardinals (Rolen) and others probably won't be in the bidding could cause him to fall to a level lower then what Soriano and Lee will eventually sign for, so I hope Melvin at least gives his agent a call and gets in the race.

[thefutureishere2006]

somethin tells me dougie will sign one of those big free agents.

[pogokat]

Quote:

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somethin tells me dougie will sign one of those big free agents.

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if that "somethin" was Doug or Mark, I believe you...otherwise...the biggest free agent signing by the crew this winter will be Dave Roberts...

[ecjimg]

Well.......everyone talks about acquiring that big bat or another pitcher via trade. Melvin has done it before, but this time he has no Lyle Overbay or Richie Sexson to deal. Do the brewers really part with top prospects? What else can be dealt? Nothing really.