The Worldwide Leader in Thin-skinned Overreaction

[RayKingsForemanGrill]

Frankly, I don't know how I got this far without reading it.

 

My point was simply this: what we know of the Holden Caulfield character, combined with the subject matter TK was talking about, combined with the term "fantasy". It all adds up to not sounding good. Dumb thing to say at best, at worst, he thought he'd get away with making a literary reference to a sports crowd.

 

And to counter-act those who were saying he was suspended for ridiculing her clothes. I guarantee you the Holden Caulfield comment was what pushed it over the edge.

 

He wasn't fired. He's not being sued. He said something dumb and he's getting a slap on the wrist for it.

[PlayerHader]

I agree.

 

Now go read the book. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[PlayerHader]

Jwill, I agree with you even more.

[berniebrewer4life]

deadspin's latest TK article

 

Great job by deadspin. This article really showed a side of Tony i have never seen before.

[RayKingsForemanGrill]

Jwill, I agree with you even more.

I too agree with Jwill, but, if you tell an offensive joke, it's no less offensive just because a majority of the audience didn't get it.

[thebruce44]

I guarantee you the Holden Caulfield comment was what pushed it over the edge.

Definitive statements like this are what is making it difficult to take you too seriously here. Again, you really don't know what pushed it over the edge just like you don't know what TK meant when he said it.

[RayKingsForemanGrill]

I guarantee you the Holden Caulfield comment was what pushed it over the edge.

Definitive statements like this are what is making it difficult to take you too seriously here. Again, you really don't know what pushed it over the edge just like you don't know what TK meant when he said it.

I simply don't know what a workplace appropriate definition of a "Holden Caulfield Fantasy" could be. If someone could point out a harmless alternative to what he might have meant, in the context of that discussion, I'll gladly back down from my assertion.

 

Edit: heck, a female poster on the board even acknowledged that she'd feel "kind of threatened" by that statement. I don't think I'm alone on this...

[TooLiveBrew]

When ESPN thinks you harassed someone you get sent to MLB Network, not suspended.

 

He hits it high... he hits it deep...

 

Very nicely played, thebruce http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[thebruce44]

I guarantee you the Holden Caulfield comment was what pushed it over the edge.

Definitive statements like this are what is making it difficult to take you too seriously here. Again, you really don't know what pushed it over the edge just like you don't know what TK meant when he said it.

I simply don't know what a workplace appropriate definition of a "Holden Caulfield Fantasy" could be. If someone could point out a harmless alternative to what he might have meant, in the context of that discussion, I'll gladly back down from my assertion.

So now you are just saying it isn't work place appropriate? I thought you were definitively saying:

To put it bluntly, the "Holden Caufield fantasy"insinuation, in context, translates something like this:

 

She's trashy and dresses inappropriately, but I'd still do her.

Which one argument do you want people to respond to at this point?

[RayKingsForemanGrill]

Brucey:

 

The latter may have been worded strongly, by the argument is this:

 

1. He's talking about a female coworker's appearance and clothes in a negative way.

2. He then makes reference to a character/book known throughout literature as a book that dealt with sexual issues/commentary.

3. He adds the word "fantasy".

 

My assertion: he may not have meant it in a threatening or menacing manner, but his comment strongly hints of a sexual meaning. Which, in ANY workplace is inappropriate.

 

The challenge: for one of the dissenters to come up with a possible alternate meaning to what he said, in that context, that is NOT inappropriate for the workplace.

 

I'm guilt of possibly wording my post too strongly. And I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if someone can challenge it. I think all those things add up (combined with the Deadspin article Bernie posted) to paint a portrait of a guy who is kind of a jerk and said something stupid.

[RayKingsForemanGrill]

Or, to put it another way: If I made demeaning comments about a female coworker and then related her to an Eliot Spitzer fantasy, or a Monica Lewinsky fantasy, or a Tiger Woods fantasy, I'd expect backlash or repercussions.

[thebruce44]

I think all those things add up (combined with the Deadspin article Bernie posted) to paint a portrait of a guy who is kind of a jerk and said something stupid.

 

Bing, bing, bing. I think this is the main point that everyone agrees with. To say what TK definitely meant is to over analysis and conjecture for a guy who just plain said something stupid. It was work place inappropriate and I don't think anyone is going to argue with you over that.

 

I took objection with some of the harsh stances and definitive statement you made in this thread such as what he meant and the exact reason he was suspended. From what I have heard it has just as much to do with his comments about Chris Berman.

 

Its so easy to jump to conclusions and throw a public figure under a bus.

 

Watching this thread play out reminds me of that Simpsons Episode where Homer peels the gummy Venis De Milo off the baby sitter's "sweet, sweet can." I can't wait for the made for TV movie about this starting Dennis Franz.

[dadofandrew]

Storm is too skinny for my tastes, and probably does dress too young.

 

That said, ESPN is very touchy...they'll e-mail threats if you reprint a paragraph or even a couple sentences they deem "insider" and threaten legal action in a blog whose readership consists mostly of friends, family, and those interested in stories about a cute but aging cocker spaniel.

[berniebrewer4life]

That said, ESPN is very touchy...they'll e-mail threats if you reprint a paragraph or even a couple sentences they deem "insider" and threaten legal action in a blog whose readership consists mostly of friends, family, and those interested in stories about a cute but aging cocker spaniel.

That wouldn't be personal experience speaking, would it Al? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[endaround]

I think there is a likely a part in TK's contract the forbids him from saying such things about ESPN employees regardless of venue. I always thought the funniest thing about PTI and its success is the fact that it was obvious TK stopped caring about sports years before.

[Diskono]

Whether it matters or not, but I would venture to say that 99% of people in offices, outside of libraries or ones dominated by English majors, would have any idea what the "Holden Caufield Fantasy" is or even what it means.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tony Kornheiser doesn't even know what it means. I am SHOCKED that he would say something obnoxious.

 

Though, I did think the Chris Berman comment was pretty funny.

[JimH5]

The Clampdown leader has now pulled Peter Pascarelli off the (formerly very) entertaining Baseball Today podcast.

 

Pascarelli has made a name for himself by being the grouchy old scribe who called in (usually from some miserable airport) to do a daily in-season baseball podcast with Eric Karabell. It was a great show, with both guys bringing a Felix and Oscar rapport to the show.

 

Pascarelli ripped on the Bud Selig statue idea, and then the next day, made an offschedule apology about his comments, and now he's gone.

 

Work for ESPN, rip an on-air personality, or a league commissioner at your own peril.

[JJHardy7]

I don't understand why the constant ripping on ESPN is occuring here all the time. I know they may not present the information that is specifically Brewers realted or what not. I've stated before it'd be kind of dumb on their part to focus on smaller market teams.

 

And with this sexual harassment issue...a book came out a few years back indicating that there was a lot shady action going on at ESPN. Just search for a ESPN book and you'll find what I am talking about. I've heard rumors/stories about the specifics on some radio stations/blogs and it seems like things were very shady. I'm not saying that what TK did was right or wrong, but ESPN has taken a stance that they will not tolerate anything that might be considered wrong. I don't blame them for that at all.

 

I also think people fail to realize that ESPN is a business. They rely on the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc. to provide them with great coverage, interviews, behind the scenes access, etc. If you rip on a commissioner, you are going to get in trouble. I think another ESPN personality (maybe SVP?) was suspended for ripping Selig. It makes complete sense to me. I don't like the fact that they can't speak their minds, but obviously ESPN is able to get guys on camera and on the radio for interviews...that doesn't mean they have the rights to do that. I will admit it does make ESPN a bit cheesy at times. I just think the constant ripping on ESPN is over the top IMO. Milwaukee just isn't the epicenter of baseball.

[thebruce44]

I don't understand why the constant ripping on ESPN is occuring here all the time. I know they may not present the information that is specifically Brewers realted or what not. I've stated before it'd be kind of dumb on their part to focus on smaller market teams.

And yet for everyone I know (Cubs, Cards, Tigers, Twins, and Brewer fans) MLB Network has already passed them in terms of baseball coverage in under a year. I hope ESPN it taking notes on how easy it is to put together good sports programming.

 

That combined with their ridiculous product placement and Disney tie ins has made ESPN an easy target. They have been completely ruined by their parent conglomerate and I will continue ripping on them as I feel they have more than earned it every time they have a Bud Light 6-pack of questions or try to tell me who is more "NOW," The Rock (who just happens to be in Disney's The Tooth Fairy) or one of the Williams sisters.

[berniebrewer4life]

And yet for everyone I know (Cubs, Cards, Tigers, Twins, and Brewer fans) MLB Network has already passed them in terms of baseball coverage in under a year. I hope ESPN it taking notes on how easy it is to put together good sports programming.

 

That combined with their ridiculous product placement and Disney tie ins has made ESPN an easy target. They have been completely ruined by their parent conglomerate and I will continue ripping on them as I feel they have more than earned it every time they have a Bud Light 6-pack of questions or try to tell me who is more "NOW," The Rock (who just happens to be in Disney's The Tooth Fairy) or one of the Williams sisters.

Bingo. Before i just thought that ESPN was the way sports coverage was at the national level. Only pay attention to 3-4 big market teams, have a bud light promo, and be done. After watching 20 minutes of MLB Network, i have since changed my mind. Not only to they cover the big markets better(seriously, much better), but they cover all the small markets so well, you can watch legitimate discussions about the braves, or tigers, or indians on MLB that last for more than 30 seconds. ESPN has gotten too full of itself. Until they make a couple of changes, the only thing i will watch on their networks are PTI, Around the Horn, and the occasional cheap seats.

[OglivieHomePerm]

On a somewhat related note, I've been watching NBATV's morning highlight show, and it too is very well done. They cover ALL the games from the previous night, and they spend time on all the teams....not just the Lakers and Celtics.

[JJHardy7]

And yet for everyone I know (Cubs, Cards, Tigers, Twins, and Brewer fans) MLB Network has already passed them in terms of baseball coverage in under a year. I hope ESPN it taking notes on how easy it is to put together good sports programming.

 

I don't disagree at all. ESPN though doesn't stand for MLB, Baseball Network, etc. I just don't see the need to bash on ESPN over and over and over and over. They're not going to be a solution for every team. Again, why in the world would they show a ton of Brewers stuff? Relatively speaking nobody cares about the Brewers on a national level. It does sucks, but it looks like ESPN is slowly changing this with the ESPN Chicago, ESPN Los Angeles, etc. Milwaukee just doesn't have the population to cover what ESPN delivers. I'm not saying it is the best product for every market. I will say they know what they are doing though.

 

That combined with their ridiculous product placement and Disney tie ins has made ESPN an easy target. They have been completely ruined by their parent conglomerate and I will continue ripping on them as I feel they have more than earned it every time they have a Bud Light 6-pack of questions or try to tell me who is more "NOW," The Rock (who just happens to be in Disney's The Tooth Fairy) or one of the Williams sisters.

 

Again, it is a business. ESPN isn't some PBS type channel. If you don't like it, don't watch. You can keep ripping on it, but it has worked for decades. I enjoy the MLB network and the NFL network, but those programs are still in their infancy compared to ESPN. I don't sit and watch ESPN all day, but I'll turn it on before I go to bed or when I wake up to catch up on the major stories. I still think ESPN is ran very, very well in many ways. Who is their main competitor? Is there one? It is easy to rip on ESPN for their lack of coverage in certain areas...but how are they going to cover everything?

[drezdn]

The thing that annoys me the most about ESPN is how they'll avoid covering sports if ABC or ESPN don't have broadcast rights.

 

As far as covering Milwaukee teams, while I understand that nationally people don't care about the Brewers or Bucks, it's annoying when they're one of only a few games on a given night and the can't even seem to squeeze a mention in. Instead discussing what Favre might say next week or projecting whether the Celtics would be good Dance Dance Revolution players.

[JJHardy7]

The thing that annoys me the most about ESPN is how they'll avoid covering sports if ABC or ESPN don't have broadcast rights.

 

As far as covering Milwaukee teams, while I understand that nationally people don't care about the Brewers or Bucks, it's annoying when they're one of only a few games on a given night and the can't even seem to squeeze a mention in. Instead discussing what Favre might say next week or projecting whether the Celtics would be good Dance Dance Revolution players.

 

I do agree. It is all about ratings. Whether you hate Favre or like Favre he makes ratings. I believe last year a day or two after the NCAA basketball championship some lame story came out that 'he might come back'. That is planned. That isn't news from the Favre camp or anything. I'd expect the same this year as well. It isn't Favre's fault IMO, but they will contact him when they need the ratings. Some ESPN personalities have even admitted that. It is difficult for Brewers baseball fans or smaller markets. They simply don't cover that like I wish they would. They do have their reason though. It seems like the only sport that can transcend that is maybe the NFL if it is a really good story/season(s).

[JimH5]

My biggest issues with ESPN in this case are the length of punishment & hypocrisy of it all.

 

They suspended Kornheiser for two weeks for ripping another ESPN host (or hosts, if the Berman link is accurate)--and his #1 replacement is Dan LeBatard, who regularly rips ESPN people on his own radio show.

 

LeBatard is also great on the air, though he said that Mike & Mike is programmed for dumb people, calls Mark Schlereth's analysis "pukey" and takes issue with the whole format of using ex-athletes and ex-coaches to regurgitate the same old cliches in the name of "analysis".

 

So yes, TK's comments about Hannah Storm were pretty rude, but they replace him with a guy who is the furthest thing from a "company guy". That's hypocrisy.

 

Bill Simmons often says that ESPN is so big that they're open to criticism by any and all (Awful Announcing, etc.), and it's better to be at the forefront of that criticism than to just circle the wagons and pretend outwardly that there's nothing wrong at all. Instead, ESPN wants to let the Ombudsman manage all of the heat.

 

It's such a corporate, humorless way to handle things on a network that's supposed to be fun and entertaining.