J.J. Hardy feature in the Star-Tribune

[Thurston Fluff]

No way Hardy played poorly enough to be sent to Nashville when a guy like Jason Bourgeois was called up to waste a roster spot.

 

Hardy had worse minor league numbers than Bourgeois did. Hardy had a AAA OBP of 284 and an OPS of 734. Bourgeios had a 354 OBP, a 755 OPS and 36 stolen bases. If JJ wasn't going to be starting he was a terrible option for the bench. He can play one position and had no offense. Bourgeios could play all the outfield spots and was a good base stealer.

 

Whether or not Doug demoted him for financial reasons or not is not an issue for me. Hardy shouldn't have been one year away from FA anyway. He shouldn't have been on the major league roster his rookie season so all Melvin did was reset his FA clock to where it should always have been.

Even if that wasn't the case it's the major leagues and this is a business. I don't begrudge Hart for going to arbitration to get every last dollar out of the team he can. I don't begrudge Melvin for getting every last bit of value out of his players when he can. I won't have a problem with Prince trying to get as much money as he possible can when his time comes either. It'll suck when it happens but it's just business.

 

If Hardy deserved a demotion due to performance, surely Suppan deserved a DFA. Why didn't that happen (The 'we didn't have anybody to replace him with' argument doesn't fly with me either.)?

 

If that argument doesn't fly could you tell us who we should have replaced him with that would have been better? Especially when you consider any option would have been at least $400,000 more than if you kept Suppan. Would another 10 starts of Chris Smith been worth $12,400,000 vs those same 10 starts with Suppan at $12,000,000?

[JohnBriggs12]

Adding to what Backupcatchers pointed out, Bourgeois was brought up when Hart was on the DL and Hall had been DFA'd. They were short outfielders. Bourgeois had a solid season at Nashville. He needn't apologize for what he did with the Brewers either. He was 3 for 3 in SB, and played solid defense. Sure he hit just .189, but 37 AB's hardly qualifies as indicative of anything.

[brewizard]

Yes, being traded for Johan Santana is being "given up on." Right.

 

No, but being traded for Hardy IS.

 

Hardy was an awesome player for us 2007-2008. He had moments of white-hot amazing man-crush love as a Brewer. Those moments became few and far between last season, so we gave Hardy the heave-ho. Why is everyone so bitter? Now we have a cheap, decent SS. So what if he has illegitimate children and might be a creep? He can turn a double play, right?

 

If anything, the way Hardy was handled made me lose tremendous respect for Melvin and co. And, the lingering fan bitterness seems completely misplaced. Hardy never cost the Brewers more than a few million in salary in any season. And last season's collapse certainly wasn't Hardy's fault. I recognize that he didn't help much, but most people - including me - blame the pitching for the general suckitude.

 

The only reason fans should be bitter is that the Brewers likely missed their window of opportunity to win a WS. The other cause for bitterness is that Melvin traded Hardy for Gomez - who likely won't match Hardy's 2007-2008 value ever.

[TooLiveBrew]

No, but being traded for Hardy IS.

 

If this is the case, the Twins have done a horrible job in filling their SS position for what is likely their easiest season to win the AL Central in recent memory. This trade was absolutely not a case of either side giving up on a player. Each guy has his warts, but also brings solid, hard to find tools to the table. The Twins had a huge need at SS, the Brewers at CF.

 

 

The other cause for bitterness is that Melvin traded Hardy for Gomez - who likely won't match Hardy's 2007-2008 value ever.

 

So being traded for a solid SS is still being 'given up on'?

[sheethead]

So what if he has illegitimate children and might be a creep?

In contrast, Hardy is a perfect gentlemen when it came to the ladies.

 

So did the Twins give up on Gomez, or is Hardy the stud they were looking for? I don't see how it can be both ways.

[brewizard]

So being traded for a solid SS is still being 'given up on'?

 

HARDY was given up on!! Now Hardy IS a solid SS? You can't have it both ways.

 

Why the bitterness?

 

Maybe because Hardy, a SS with some warts, was traded for Gomez, a centerfielder with many more warts.

 

Had anyone in the Twins or Mets organizations ultimately believed that Gomez would be able to control his rawness, IMO, there was no reason to trade him. He would have been kept by either team. But alas.

 

No. In fact, the Brewers and the Twins both exchanged damaged goods. The question is: which dented player will be more valuable going forward? My guess? Hardy. Why? Because I believe some of Hardy's issues were actually caused by bad management, whereas most of Gomez's issues are caused by Gomez.

[TooLiveBrew]

HARDY was given up on!! Now Hardy IS a solid SS? You can't have it both ways.

 

Um, you're the one claiming Hardy isn't a solid SS & that he was given up on. I made it pretty clear in my post how I feel.

 

 

I believe some of Hardy's issues were actually caused by bad management, whereas most of Gomez's issues are caused by Gomez.

 

Being rushed to the majors like Gomez was definitely constitutes bad management.

[brewizard]

Being rushed to the majors like Gomez was definitely constitutes bad management.

 

Agreed. And being sent down was similar bad management. (Again, Hardy had a four game hitting streak going - only his second four game streak of the season when he was sent down "to improve his hitting" and left down just long enough to alter his free-agency but not long enough to actually improve his hitting.)

 

If you read what I wrote, I clearly stated that I believe Hardy was the best SS we'd had in a generation. I question the lingering bitterness toward him here.

 

I also recognize that Hardy's last season was horrible - especially when compared to 2007-2008 when he was awesome. But Gomez has NEVER been awesome. He's raw. That means, we're hoping the management will be able to turn him around. Do you see the potential problem? I do. The same bad management that hampered Hardy is now going to try to 'fix' Gomez.

[RockCoCougars]

Many Twins fans feel the same about letting Gomez go as a lot of Brewer fans (including me) feel about trading Hardy..... namely, 'He's probably going to be pretty good (e.g. play up to their potential) for them'. I have a feeling that this trade is either going to look very good or very bad in 5 years.

 

As far as Melvin screwing with Hardy's service time, I really couldn't care less what Hardy thinks or feels, I'm more concerned how the move affected the attitudes of teammates left over (guys like Weeks who was a good friend of Hardy's by all accounts) towards the organization. I'm also concerned about how the move affected the Brewers' reputation with the player's union and agents/free agents around the league. I don't buy the 'Well Wolf signed here' argument either... the Brewers offered the most cash by far, and he was looking for green only. When Hardy and Hall were sent on their way, the clubhouse had to be poisonous. Two (by all accounts popular with teammates) players who came up through the system are jettisoned for poor performance, while the highest paid player on the team is protected by being stashed away on the DL due to poor performance.

[TooLiveBrew]

Hardy was given every chance to hit last season, and didn't. There is no comparison here imo aside from the fact the two were traded for one other.

 

Hardy's season line was .226/.297/.366/.663 prior to the four-game hitting streak. He had a seven-game streak as part of a good May, but then stunk in June & July. If a great month of May wasn't enough to get him going, why should anyone believe a four-game hitting streak would have been?

 

 

I question the lingering bitterness toward him here.

 

I think it's been made pretty clear in this thread that many fans are tired of the excuses Hardy often seems to have readily available.

[RobertR]

Yeah, if Hardy just keeps his mouth and doesn't make excuses for a crummy year, this wouldn't be an issue.

 

Mind you, I don't believe Doug Melvin for a second that sending Hardy down at that point wasn't at least partially motivated by reclaiming a year of service time. But, it also was motivated by the fact that the Brewers believed that the combination of Counsell and Escobar would be more productive while they were still theoretically in contention. And Counsell and Escobar both outperformed Hardy's season line in August, so Melvin may very well have been right about that.

 

The root cause of Hardy getting sent down was his poor performance last year. If he had performed, he wouldn't have opened the door at all. And, as far as I can tell, the only cause of Hardy's poor performance is J. J. Hardy.

 

Robert

[sheethead]

I'm lost, was Gomez given up on by two teams, or was it Hardy? The stance is getting murky.

[Invader3K]

I couldn't care less about a player's personal life unless is starts somehow impacting his on-field performance. I don't know why any of that junk was brought up in this thread to begin with.

 

Anyway, the reality is that Escobar showed he was ready to play in the majors. I think in the long run he will prove to be more valuable as a player than Hardy. I'm looking forward to watching him in 2010.

[snyttri]

The article says Hardy had depression some time ago so he was probably diagnosed by a doctor at the time. The problems Hardy describes may be symptoms (staying in for six months, thinking of 2 for 4 as a bad day and feeling like the day is going 100 miles an hour). Based on medical analysis teams may have reduced Hardy's value to that of a good prospect in part because the illness showed signs of recurring last season. http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ajor_depressive_disorder

[monty57]

I agree, snyttri. Reading that article really made me worry for Hardy. Depression can be a very serious disease, and it sounds like JJ suffers from it. Much of the "whining" and "excuses" could be because JJ suffers from the disease.

 

Regardless, I hope the best for both parties in the trade. Gomez is now a Brewer, so I'll cheer harder for him, but I wish JJ well. Both players are probably better than they have played recently, but as a previous poster alluded to, this trade could be very lopsided in either direction, becuase either of the players could be really good or really bad in the future.

[Thurston Fluff]

And last season's collapse certainly wasn't Hardy's fault. I recognize that he didn't help much, but most people - including me - blame the pitching for the general suckitude.

 

Last years collapse was due to players not playing to their potential. Hardy was one of those players. All those who played as poorly as Suppan, Parra or Bush should shoulder some of the blame for the season as well not just the pitchers. We wouldn't have needed the pitchers to be better if the offense was better. Hardy was part of the offensive problem

 

I'm also concerned about how the move affected the Brewers' reputation with the player's union and agents/free agents around the league. I don't buy the 'Well Wolf signed here' argument either... the Brewers offered the most cash by far, and he was looking for green only. When Hardy and Hall were sent on their way, the clubhouse had to be poisonous.

 

I don't know of too many players who forgo money for a chance to be with a great bunch of guys. While Hardy may have been popular every player in that locker room also knew Escobar was a great young shortstop and Hardy was not performing. I bet every one of those players in the locker room would much rather win with Escobar than lose with Hardy. They all want the best team possible. Anything that goes to that end will make the clubhouse better in the long run.

 

 

Two (by all accounts popular with teammates) players who came up through the system are jettisoned for poor performance, while the highest paid player on the team is protected by being stashed away on the DL due to poor performance.

 

Any player who thinks he's going to find any team without those type of situations is going to be looking an awful long time. Every team jettisons popular players and have to pay others more than they are worth because of a bad decision made years ago.

[RockCoCougars]

Any player who thinks he's going to find any team without those type of situations is going to be looking an awful long time. Every team jettisons popular players and have to pay others more than they are worth because of a bad decision made years ago.

Point taken. That said, if Melvin is willing to make such extreme decisions as sending Hardy to the minors and DFA'ing Hall, he should make another one on the elephant in the corner this fall. If Suppan stinks up the joint in Spring Training- which I would bet on, he better be DFA'd. I don't want this team wasting games giving him a chance to 'work things out'. No need to protect him on the disabled list by coming up with another 'injury' again this year.

[sheethead]

The problem with Suppan is now he can just imagine we are all yelling Soooooooup. Stupid ribbon boards.

[joepepsi]

They won't DFA Suppan unless there is a better alternative. With Hall there clearly was. With Hardy playing so poorly they had nothing to lose by promoting Escobar. Suppan may be mediocre or even bad, but the alternatives last year were horrible. The difference between a bad pitcher and an awful pitcher is significant.

[RockCoCougars]

They won't DFA Suppan unless there is a better alternative. With Hall there clearly was. With Hardy playing so poorly they had nothing to lose by promoting Escobar. Suppan may be mediocre or even bad, but the alternatives last year were horrible. The difference between a bad pitcher and an awful pitcher is significant.

I don't buy that Jason Bourgeous or Corey Patterson were better options than anybody, including Bill Hall. Going further, this year, there seems to be more alternatives to Suppan. Last year, the blame lies squarely with Melvin for not lining up more arms. There are plenty of AAAA pitchers out there on the waiver wire that could have replicated what Suppan did.

 

If Suppan is brutal in spring training, it's time that he goes. I don't want to see him trotted out there for 10 or 15 brutal starts to 'work things out'. When the team was losing 95 games a year, that was tried with the likes of Jaimie Navarro, Jim Abbott and Glendon Rusch, and from those situations, the Brewers should have learned that if a guy is getting hit like a batting practice pitcher in April, he's probably going to get hit like a batting practice pitcher in June. This team has a chance to contend, and they can't waste games.

[joepepsi]

I don't buy that Jason Bourgeous or Corey Patterson were better options than anybody, including Bill Hall.

Hall was replaced by McGehee not those two. Technically Bourgeois was called up after Hall was traded, but he was merely OF depth and speed off the bench. Once Lopez was acquired they were safe to move McGehee to 3rd fulltime.

 

I agree it looks as though they have better depth at pitching this year, so if Suppan doesn't perform, he shouldn't stick around.

[monty57]

I agree it looks as though they have better depth at pitching this year, so if Suppan doesn't perform, he shouldn't stick around.

 

However, they are still lacking starting pitching depth. It will be an interesting decision for Melvin to make... keep Suppan as long man in the bullpen to step into the rotation when someone gets hurt, or get rid of him to keep a more promising young arm, putting yourself at risk of another blowup when a couple of starters go down.

 

Of course, we will probably have some injuries during Spring Training, so it's likely things will work themselves out prior to opening day.

[Thurston Fluff]

I have no doubt at all Suppan would be DFAed if it comes to a choice of keeping him or someone who is as good or better if that someone could be part of the future as well as the present. Doug did that with Hall and Hammonds so I don't see any reason why he wouldn't with Suppan. I could very well see him cut if he is the 7th starter behind Bush, Parra and Narveson and there isn't room for him in the pen.

Hopefully he could be traded for peanuts and us taking on a majority of the contract. At least then we could get some AAA fodder or an equally useless player but in a position we have less alternatives at.

[logan82]

By mid-season we should have a better idea of where our AAA and AA guys are. Right now Suppan looks like he will be needed for depth. If he somehow ends up in the rotation with no injuries to other guys I will be very disappointed with Macha. Not really shocked however.

[Mass Haas]

Let's keep this a Hardy thread, everyone, thanks.