Prince's Future

[TheCrew07]

If players are stupid and Milwaukee won't be able to sign any players to Braun type deals early... then what exactly is the point of being a fan? How do we as fans connect with the team when we only get to enjoy to 2 or 3 best years of a player's career? That's what's wrong with the system... if the Brewers aren't able to get 8-10 good years of a player they draft and develop, then the system is broke. If players won't sign early trading some money for security, then the Brewers have no hope of building around a core of players and 2008 is as good as it's going to get. It makes the fiscal arguments many of us posters have been making moot...

 

I think there are certain scenarios in which the Brewers should consider moving Fielder, but they are sort of doom and gloom in regards to the pitching staff so I'll simply say that I don't believe in absolutes when it comes to building a baseball team, I can see the possibility of moving Fielder being a necessity down the road.

 

If the Brewers would have made an offer to Prince like they did to Braun when he was financially motivated to accept it, the story might be different now. As it turned out, I think DM will ride Fielder into FA, offer a contract for public relations sake (just like Sabathia), and take the compensation picks when Prince gets slightly more money per year, but 3 or 4 more years out of a different team. In the short term the Brewers can compete with the money, but they'll never been able to compete with the years, and these FA contracts always seem to come down to the most years. If a player has 2 deals, 7/120 or 8/160, which deal are they going to take?

 

I will also say that the handling of Hardy and Hall, regardless of what we might think, may have had a negative impact in the clubhouse as both players were popular with the team. I think the notion of the Brewers being competitive long term is also still in question, if you're a player do you see a long term plan? As a fan do we a see a long term plan? I know I don't and I'm curious what the players would say behind closed doors.

[Funketown]

Braun is upper echelon and is stupid for doing what he did.

 

And yes, a long term contract would buy out free agency dollars and years, so it would have to be considered.

I don't understand this. If I were given the choice between a 100% chance of $45,000,000 or a 95% chance of $80,000,000, I would without a doubt take the $45,000,000. Perhaps Braun was smart enough to realize that once you get to a certain level of wealth, additional wealth does yield significant increases in quality of life.

[dlk9s]

The bottom line with Braun is that he did what he felt was best for him and what he wanted out of life (and maybe he was thinking of the team a little, too). He was more than happy with the millions upon millions of dollars that are guaranteed over the life of the contract and did not feel that waiting for an even bigger payday was worth the risk. It was not a stupid or a smart decision. It was just a decision. There are perfectly reasonable arguments to be made either way. To stay it's "stupid" is going overboard.

[rluzinski]

Braun is upper echelon and is stupid for doing what he did. And yes, a long term contract would buy out free agency dollars and years, so it would have to be considered.

I don't understand this. If I were given the choice between a 100% chance of $45,000,000 or a 95% chance of $80,000,000, I would without a doubt take the $45,000,000. Perhaps Braun was smart enough to realize that once you get to a certain level of wealth, additional wealth does yield significant increases in quality of life.

I agree. Furthermore, each person will have a difference, dollars-happiness curve, so how can another person judge what was right or wrong? It works both ways. One guy might feel he needs $10 mil, another might want $100 mil. Hey, whatever. This is America, right?

 

[strawbossisevil]

If players are stupid and Milwaukee won't be able to sign any players to Braun type deals early... then what exactly is the point of being a fan? How do we as fans connect with the team when we only get to enjoy to 2 or 3 best years of a player's career?

This is exactly why I have pointed out time and time again to you that it would have been foolish for the Brewers to bring up Escobar at the beginning of last season. It is in our best interests to wait as long as possible with our prospects in order to maximize the amount of "prime years" available to us before they hit free agency. If we bring up our prospects super young, as we did with Fielder, they´ll end up spending their top prime years in some other organization, or signed to extremely expensive deals that we can´t afford.

[kramnoj]

And besides, as of right now--Prince and Braun (two superstars) have got them exactly one years worth of playoff games since they've been here. Hmmmmm...doesn't seem to be really working.

 

Braun has been in the majors for 3 seasons, one of which results in a playoff appearance, and you consider that a failure? I know that you've tried to paint yourself as a cynic, or a realist, but this is just negative for the sake of being negative.

 

What would change if you decided to pay him 20 mil per than 10 mil per year? Except your ability to sign even less players.

 

I'm having trouble discerning this. Can you clarify?

 

As far Braun being stupid, why specifically do you feel it was stupid? Braun is going to be a rich man. Sure, he gave up opportunity, but he gave up super luxuries. Braun and his advisors clearly understand that the first $10-$20 million is much more important than the next 10 or 20. One other benefit Braun gets is by having this guaranteed contract, he can borrow against this contract and live a better life earlier. He doesn't have to wait 4 years to get his first big money. There is value to that as well.

[logan82]

How do we as fans connect with the team when we only get to enjoy to 2 or 3 best years of a player's career?

 

I guess I don't get as attached to players as some people do because I really don't see players moving on as a problem. Not many players stick with their original team even on the big market teams.

[Thurston Fluff]

How do we as fans connect with the team when we only get to enjoy to 2 or 3 best years of a player's career?

 

I guess I don't as attached to players as some people do because I really don't see players moving on as a problem. Not many players stick with their original team even on the big market teams.

This is a microcosm of how different fans are in why they enjoy a team. Some of us follow the name on the front of the jersey some the name on the back of it. Personally I am as interested in how a team replaces a great player as much as I am seeing the great player. When a player moves on I'm not all that interested in him anymore.

[TheCrew07]

If players are stupid and Milwaukee won't be able to sign any players to Braun type deals early... then what exactly is the point of being a fan? How do we as fans connect with the team when we only get to enjoy to 2 or 3 best years of a player's career?

This is exactly why I have pointed out time and time again to you that it would have been foolish for the Brewers to bring up Escobar at the beginning of last season. It is in our best interests to wait as long as possible with our prospects in order to maximize the amount of "prime years" available to us before they hit free agency. If we bring up our prospects super young, as we did with Fielder, they´ll end up spending their top prime years in some other organization, or signed to extremely expensive deals that we can´t afford.

 

 

 

I don't want to take this too far off topic, but what made Escobar significantly more ready in August than he was in April? Who gets to determine this readiness? What if Escobar is already all he's ever going to be?

 

The earlier the team brings up a player, the sooner the team should evaluate where are the player stands... is he a "core" player the organization wants to build around? A role player? etc...

 

You don't keep players down in the minors for the sake of keeping them down. I completely understand what you're saying, you're trying to maximize their value by having them in team control through their peak. I've always understood that point of view, I just simply don't agree. From a player management perspective, the organization also has a responsibility to let a player grow. Would Griffey have been better served playing in the minors till he was 23 just so Seattle could control him into his 30s? Is that fair to the player? How would you feel if you were the player? Would you sign a team friendly deal after they buried you in AAA for multiple seasons seriously limiting your earning potential? It goes both ways...

 

If you're dealing with a player of Fielder or Braun's offensive potential the idea should be to lock them up as soon as possible. The Brewers missed the boat with Fielder, and it's quite possible he never would have signed a deal regardless given his agent. Prince has no incentive to sign a team friendly long term deal once he reaches arby. Maybe Hart being forced to repeat AAA and then ride the pine is the reason he didn't sign his contract offer? Was Jenkins or Mench really a better option than him?

 

The organization had/has some glaring pitching needs, those problems don't fix themselves sitting on our hands letting one player play out a contract and burying a different player behind that one in AAA. We needed impact pitching and instead DM took the conservative FA route. We now have a worse problem in McGehee and Gamel... neither one is close to FA soon, and Macha seems to favor McGehee over Gamel even though Gamel is the much more gifted player. I dread watching this situation play itself out...

[TooLiveBrew]

Why do you need to get a shot in at Melvin regarding your oft-stated dislike of his approach to pitching in a Prince Fielder thread?

 

 

what made Escobar significantly more ready in August than he was in April?

 

Maybe the fact that his AAA OPS in April was barely over .700, and improved each month from April through July (.825 OPS). He only got in 29 PAs in August before being called up, so I didn't factor it in.

[logan82]

what made Escobar significantly more ready in August than he was in April?

 

Nothing. He was however down long enough for us to gain a year of service time.

[strawbossisevil]

Exactly, plus, it wasn't like he was an offensive force that was forcing us to put him on the big league team. It was different with Fielder and Braun, where their bats made it unjustifiable for the Brewers to leave them in the minors any longer. Escobar, as many have pointed out, lacked plate discipline heading into last year (still does to some extent) and (as was shown during his time in the bigs) was still growing into his potential defensively at SS.

 

Escobar improved at AAA in the hitting department and was rewarded with a call up. But waiting until he forced his way up gained us a whole year of service time in his prime years, that's HUGE for a small market.

 

It is of extreme benefit for a small market baseball team to not bring up their prospects when they still have something they can learn in the minors. You make them force their way onto the ball club with their play at AAA. It gained us a whole year with Escobar. If Gamel is down long enough this season it may gain us another year of him too.

 

Also (although a bit off topic, but I know it's a subject you go on and on about), just to give an idea of what young, pre-arby pitching costs in trades. Remember what the Reds got for Josh Hamilton after he broke out in Cincinnati (complete with .922 OPS)? For an All Star power hitting CF the Reds got Edinson Volquez, who has essentially been the equivalent of Randy Wolf so far into his career. That is the price of solid pre-arby top of the rotation arms, with very few exceptions where a GM was an idiot (Steve Phillips - Kazmir).

[TheCrew07]

Why do you need to get a shot in at Melvin regarding your oft-stated dislike of his approach to pitching in a Prince Fielder thread?

 

 

what made Escobar significantly more ready in August than he was in April?

 

Maybe the fact that his AAA OPS in April was barely over .700, and improved each month from April through July (.825 OPS). He only got in 29 PAs in August before being called up, so I didn't factor it in.

 

 

What evidence do you have that suggests his MLB lines wouldn't have followed the same exact pattern? As I've said numerous times in the past, he was clearly an ascending player, and he tends to start a bit slow at each level and progress as the season moves along. Feel free to search my previous posts regarding Escobar, it's all been said numerous times before. I think when it comes to Escobar people are just going to believe what they want to believe.

 

 

I was responding to a statement made by another poster, I had no intention of derailing this thread with Melvin/Escobar talk.

 

 

A year or years of any players service time can easily be bought out via a Braunesque deal. Contracts are largely handed out based on offensive prowess so it's not like an Escobar deal would set the Brewers back anywhere near a Fielder deal. Even if the Brewers signed Escobar to an extended cost controlled deal and say Prince becomes a better all around player, said contract wouldn't be an albatross when moving Escobar. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Braun, Fielder, Escboar, Gamel, Lawrie, whomever.... the longer we have the controlled with cost certainty, the better off the organization is. Longevity + cost certainty = flexibility. Please don't confuse service time with cost certainty, arby isn't cost certainty by any stretch.

 

 

I'll say it one last time, it's not good business to keep prospects buried in the minors for service time. It creates unnecessary animosity on the player's behalf. Once a player hits MLB his earning potential is largely controlled by his performance, he has no one to blame but himself. However if he's stashed in AAA for "depth" as people around here are fond of preaching about, his earning potential is being severely limited by the organization. Say Gamel turns out to be the hitter some of us think he will be, what will his incentive be to sign a deal if he's stashed in AAA again? How well did the Howard situation turn out in Philly? The Brewers aren't in any position to spend market value to retain any FA stud they develop in the current MLB revenue system. To retain players the players have to be willing to sign early and the team has to be willing to accept the risk, and players with a chip on their shoulder will be less likely to sign.

 

 

Finally, I'm not sure where this notion came from that all prospects should be finished products when they arrive in MLB when it's quite clearly the opposite all around baseball. Every player will be different... Escobar wasn't Hardy, he wasn't coming off of major surgery and being thrown in the fire. He's not Weeks/Fielder who were seen as offensive powerhouses with defensive liabilities. Neither is Gamel similar to Braun, they are similar offensively, but defensively they are worlds apart tools wise even though the stats may suggest otherwise. Very rarely is a prospect a finished product when he's called up, typically when they are you're getting a hall of fame type talent... Griffey, Bonds, Arod, etc.

 

Most of these young men will get incrementally better in the minors, but they are always the best players at their level, which isn't a great incentive to get better as success truthfully comes too easy. Furthermore I think people vastly overestimate the time that is spent on individual instruction outside of ST and Instructionals in the fall at the minor league level... in season there just isn't time for that sort of 1 of 1, it's alomst entirely on the player to "want it" bad enough to put extra time in. At the MLB level there is actually time for individual instruction on a daily basis, simply because there are more coaches per player, so there are more man hours available to work on issues, and not all players will require the same level of attention.

 

 

Fielder wasn't a finished product, he'll leave right in his prime, and that doesn't mean the organization made a mistake bringing him up when they did. The organization needs to be aggressive, both in retaining and trading assets to remain competitive long term. No team has perfect drafts and has players lined 4 deep at every position through the minors to MLB, it's just not possible to hit on that many draft picks. It's a tremendous waste of resources to have a super prospect in AAA with an expensive MLB player also at his position.

 

 

 

In a perfect world the decision would be based on who's the most talented and productive, however in the case of Milwaukee service and cost are probably just as important if not more important. I think the results last year speak for themselves, I've been very consistent on these points over the last couple of years. Escobar could have produced similar or better to what Hardy actually did and 1 pitcher would have made a significant impact on the rotation, maybe allowing Parra to stay in AAA and actually get his confidence back. It's easy to reclaim a year of time with a contract extension, but the trades we don't make we never get back.

 

 

The above is why if the right deal comes along for Fielder and the club is struggling, Melvin should at least consider it. I don't think it's likely he gets traded as I hope the team is at least .500ish, but I'd want the door to remain open in DM's mind. I don't want any closed doors or lines drawn in the sand.

 

 

edit. I want to add none of this had anything to do with Hardy struggling... I said I thought he was a 4 WAR player, which meant that Escobar + Pitcher just had to be worth 4 WAR combined to be as valuable in 2009, but I thought going forward into 2010 and beyond the 2 players combined would blow Hardy's value away as they matured. I've never just looked at the roster year by year, I'm interested in longevity and building the best possible organization. Many people around here thought keeping Hardy in 2009 and 10 made the team better, I never saw it that way as I saw and still see impact pitching as the biggest need. The pitcher was/is more important than the position player, that's just how I see it.

[TooLiveBrew]

What evidence do you have that suggests his MLB lines wouldn't have followed the same exact pattern?

 

I have none, except that he didn't hit AAA pitching well to start the season. What evidence do you have that his MLB lines would have followed that pattern?

 

 

I had no intention of derailing this thread with Melvin/Escobar talk.

 

*looks up*

 

 

I'll say it one last time, it's not good business to keep prospects buried in the minors for service time. It creates unnecessary animosity on the player's behalf.

 

This is nothing but your own speculation. Just about every MLB team does this, and the only time you hear complaints about it are in the most extreme of cases. In general, there is nothing to support your claim.

[trwi7]

I would agree that it was probably best to trade Hardy last offseason, because there wasn't a particularly good option either way.

 

Hardy has a good year, but is now only one year away from free agency. That's going to hurt his value and is likely going to have teams trying to low ball the Brewers by not wanting to give up a lot for possibly only one year.

 

Hardy has a bad year, doesn't get sent to the minors and still only has a year until he's a free agent hurting his value.

 

Hardy has a bad year, gets sent to the minors and has to be dealt for less than his true value.

 

None of those three options are good.

[rluzinski]

I would agree that it was probably best to trade Hardy last offseason, because there wasn't a particularly good option either way.

 

By sending Hardy down to the minors and getting that extra year, I'm not sure how much less the Brewers got than if they would have instead traded one year of good Hardy away. As underwhelming as he is, I'll take Gomez and difference between the 2015 and 2009 Escobar.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Braun is upper echelon and is stupid for doing what he did. And yes, a long term contract would buy out free agency dollars and years, so it would have to be considered.

I don't understand this. If I were given the choice between a 100% chance of $45,000,000 or a 95% chance of $80,000,000, I would without a doubt take the $45,000,000. Perhaps Braun was smart enough to realize that once you get to a certain level of wealth, additional wealth does yield significant increases in quality of life.

I agree. Furthermore, each person will have a difference, dollars-happiness curve, so how can another person judge what was right or wrong? It works both ways. One guy might feel he needs $10 mil, another might want $100 mil. Hey, whatever. This is America, right?

Very true...each player has his own priorities which is well within their rights. I would also say hiring Boras as your agent sends a signal as to where your priorities are. I love Prince, but I doubt he leaves a penny on the table. That makes it a very tough decision for the Brewers whether they allocate that much money to one player.

[Tbadder]

Crew 07:

 

I couldn't agree more. The system is broke. I think we must question our motivation for being fans. Championships are essentially a monetary exercise, which is a cynical approach by nature. Believe me I feel none too good that the Brewers really don't have the ability to drop a dung-ton of money on talent, but money is so finite in small market clubs that the risk of hamstringing your franchise is much too high to bestow so much on a single player.

 

Kramnoj:

 

All I was saying, and saying poorly, was that the Brewers already have a difficult time signing players long term, and that will just make things worse once we hand out a 20mil per season contract. So if we sign Prince, then what? Who do we surround him with?

 

As far as Braun goes, lets just say he's the anomaly then. I think he was stupid. If I was his agent I would've made him realize the power he has to ring out every last cent of what is rightfully his in the marketplace. I might not like the marketplace, and even think it's irrational, but it's the only game in town. And yes, I would rather have 85mil instead of 45mil, even if it meant being just a little patience. In the meantime I could get by with 2mil or so. Just a difference of opinion I guess.

[TheCrew07]

I have none, except that he didn't hit AAA pitching well to start the season. What evidence do you have that his MLB lines would have followed that pattern?

Go minor league splits, look at his career numbers, especially the last 3, you'll see a pretty familiar pattern. There's more to this than MLEs and what national publications have to say about prospects, the best information we get is generally gleaned from audio interviews or local newspaper features.

 

*looks up"

Clever but beneath you, once again I was responding to Straw, and there's whole lot more in that post than Hardy/Escobar/DM

 

This is nothing but your own speculation. Just about every MLB team

does this, and the only time you hear complaints about it are in the

most extreme of cases. In general, there is nothing to support your

claim.

Once again you just assume that it's idle speculation. Furthermore no just about every MLB team doesn't do thins... quite the opposite in fact, usually one of the players is moved in a trade. Sometimes, like with Howard, the team intentionally buries a player behind another elite player, it's more the exception than the rule. Buchholz also comes to mind, but the whole situation there is a bit weird and difficult to dissect given his talent and the crappy performance of the FA pitchers signed for their rotation. I'm still not sure what to make of that whole deal, why the organization kept him in AAA and largely limited his IP is sort of a mystery, and only makes sense if the intention was to try and trade him all along.

 

Maybe the difference here is that I took the time to do a ton of research on every organization baseball starting in 2007 and finishing prior to the 2008 season so I see the inefficient way the Brewers have used up their resources and spent their money. There are some GMs around the game that are doing more with less, and in fact I was literally shocked to discover a team I had always dismissed had some true genius in TB. Not just at the MLB level, but organization wide in contracts to pitchers (the Shields contract is brilliant), position players, and team/organization building. Other organizations have followed suit, like Toronto this off season. Some have spent money very efficiently going back 4-5 years like Colorado, even some of the large market teams spend their money very well, like Boston (one pitching contract aside). It's pretty easy to see the holes in what's been done just using Cots.... salary against wins. It's not about spending money, it's about spending money efficiently, something the Brewers just haven't done under Melvin.

 

Fielder wants to play for a winner... well sure, who doesn't. I don't think his perception of an organization will matter at all in the end, he'll sign the longest contract because it has the most guaranteed money. I honestly believe for the Brewers to remain relevant over a longer period of time they will need to start to get 8-10 years out of the stud players we develop. There's no way Milwaukee can afford to build a team paying market value for every starting position on the 25 man, so they need players to be willing to sign Braun type deals early, and they damn well better start locking up our top pitchers to Shields type contracts. This is where perception matters... and it's not what you, or I, or how any other fan sees the organization, it's how the players see the organization. The Hardy situation was handled as poorly as it could possibly be from a player's perspective and I worry about the long term fallout of this last season. Maybe it won't matter at all... I don't know. Will a Lawrie want to sign here for 8-10? Or would he rather go the Hart route and be gone in 6-7?

 

This is the crux of the issue... what's a player's perspective of the Brewer organization? Are they penny pinchers who fly by the seat of their pants? Are they a committed organization with a long term plan? Does the perception lie someplace in the middle? It's too late to lockup Fielder to a team friendly contract (which by the way the team assumes all the risk on), and we aren't going to be able to compete with the years a larger market can offer for him. Going forward how does the organization do better than it did with this first wave of players? Is the organization even interested in longevity or is the idea to depend solely on the farm system to keep churning out players draft after draft, then play whack-a-moles with FA to plug the remaining holes? If the organization is willing lock up players then will the players be willing to sign? MLB is a business sure, but relationships still matter, regardless of the type of business we're in, and I know a former player who played for quite a few teams including the Yankees and Brewers but the only organizations he'd consider getting involved with in his retirement are Cleveland and Arizona. It's an old boys network like anywhere else, word gets around beyond a player's personal experience with an organization.

 

The idea behind the Hall contract and Hart offer were sound, just not the choice of player, though I'm still hopeful Hart will turn things around. I think you can avoid those pitfalls though by asking if the player is someone the organization wants to build around, someone elite, and not just signing him because he's good? With so many talented offensive players who are also defensively deficient at this time in the organization, is it wise to lockup any OF who isn't elite ala Braun? When I say a core, I'm talking about 3-4 position players and 2-3 starting pitchers under long term contract at any one time. Keep those 5-7 players locked in and keep the rest of the roster flexible and fluid. If the team would want to move player via trade, the contracts wouldn't have any impact at all. Kazmir is expensive, but TB still had suitors when he started to under perform because he has significant talent and there's hope he'll turn it around. I don't see how eating up 30ish mil between just Braun and Fielder is a solid fiscal plan, Braun starts to get expensive right as Fielder is hitting FA. Instead of signing Fielder I think the organization needs evaluate how it operates and change it's business model, because I think operating as they have, this 1 and done in the playoffs is as good as it's ever going to be. We'll be competitive sure, but that's just not enough for me anymore.

[RockCoCougars]

I agree with some of the others who feel that the way the team handled the Hardy situation may have damaged the clubhouse somewhat. I know some of you feel that he did it to himself- but let's be realistic, he didn't play poorly enough to be sent to the minors given his track record.

 

All I know is that after Mauer signs, the Brewers had better make Fielder a similar offer. Like I said, you either give Prince the extra money or let Melvin spend it on another 30 something starter who throws 89 MPH. Who else are you going to give it to? The Brewers have never really had any luck signing free agents from other teams. In the past 30 plus years, I can only think of a few who were worth the money.

[TooLiveBrew]

Clever but beneath you

 

Touche... I probably shouldn't have gone there

[kramnoj]

So if we sign Prince, then what? Who do we surround him with?

 

If you don't sign Prince, who do you have on the team? You already said you don't like Free Agency. If the Brewers attendance stays strong, they could easily have $20M or more each season dedicated to players acquired in FA. What are the chances of getting consistently good value out of players available in the market you want to stay away from?

 

And yes, I would rather have 85mil instead of 45mil, even if it meant being just a little patience. In the meantime I could get by with 2mil or so. Just a difference of opinion I guess.

 

You're not even including the possibility that Braun doesn't get the $85M. Braun only gets to live this life once. Maybe he has a 90% chance of being good and healthy and earning all that. But there is a chance that things don't quite work out that way, and he doesn't have enough money to be rich for the rest of his life and has to actually go and work for a living. This way he is set for life. What specifically has he lost? This way he only has one or two mansions, and not ten, and he doesn't get to own his own jet. So he's not in the super rich set, but he has security, and has the possibility of more money down the road. I think many of us wish we we could be so stupid.

[TooLiveBrew]

So if we sign Prince, then what? Who do we surround him with?

 

For the pitching, as of now it's looking like two or more young & fairly cheap/affordable SPs. For other positions, C, SS, 3B, & CF should be cheap/affordable as well. LF is obviously a very good bargain, and it shouldn't be too expensive to either develop or acquire a solution for RF beyond 2011. 2B is a bit of a wild card -- if Weeks performs like I believe he will, he could easily be the luxury you'd have to sacrifice in order to retain Fielder (that or RF). I just don't see a huge budgeting problem when you'd essentially be retaining Prince through his mid & late 20s, likely until he's 30 or 31.

 

The flip side of that coin, of course, is that 1B is theoretically the easiest spot to find offense for a NL team, so Fielder's value could well be greater in terms of the trade return he'd bring. Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with either direction for the Brewers.

[HiAndTight]

For an All Star power hitting CF the Reds got Edinson Volquez, who has essentially been the equivalent of Randy Wolf so far into his career. That is the price of solid pre-arby top of the rotation arms, with very few exceptions where a GM was an idiot (Steve Phillips - Kazmir).

For what it's worth(and that isn't very much at all), but I don't think Phillips was the GM who dumped Kazmir. I believe it was Duguette who traded Kazmir after he replaced Phillips.

 

 

 

[HiAndTight]

All I was saying, and saying poorly, was that the Brewers already have a difficult time signing players long term, and that will just make things worse once we hand out a 20mil per season contract. So if we sign Prince, then what? Who do we surround him with?

 

As far as Braun goes, lets just say he's the anomaly then. I think he was stupid. If I was his agent I would've made him realize the power he has to ring out every last cent of what is rightfully his in the marketplace. I might not like the marketplace, and even think it's irrational, but it's the only game in town. And yes, I would rather have 85mil instead of 45mil, even if it meant being just a little patience. In the meantime I could get by with 2mil or so. Just a difference of opinion I guess.

 

Again though, you're ignoring the possability that he doesn't earn that 85 million. How many players have fallen off the cliff and seen their earning power greatly diminish in a short period of time? Not saying that'd happen to Braun, it likely wouldn't have, but you take that 45 million and you can still cash in as a FA, but you've got that guaranteed money.

 

What's more, waiting FIVE years to become a FA is more than just being a little patient. When you're talking about your financial future, that's taking a lot of patience.

 

AS for what you surround Prince with, this is why I was saying I'm only making that deal if you've got a farm system that you believe can produce a significant amount of big league talent to make up for the 10 million dollars you're losing between Prince earning the 11 he's making this year and the 20-25 he'd be earning in Free Agency.