Madison-Milwaukee High Speed Rail

[homer]

I've seen all sorts of stats on this thread from 110mph to 60 mph from one stop in Madison to two proposed stops. I've seen Amtrak only makes a profit in the northeast but ridership has doubled on the Milwaukee to Chicago line - that line loses money? Anyone know where we can go to confirm all this stuff?

[paul253]

but it's not like roads, highways, and interstates aren't heavily subsidized with tax dollars.

 

Obsessed beat me to the bunch but the key difference is that people use roads and interstates MUCH more than train. Its not even comparable. Let's face it, this is being forced down our throats by certain people who want it. There have been no studies done as to how many people would use it or how many cars it would take off the roads. And why would there be? It would hurt their position. There are misleading people by calling it high speed. People act like since this is federal money it doesn't really count, like federal money just grows on trees. I think by comparing this to things like sewer dumping and Asian carp, he was just basically saying....look......having a train would be great, but we need to get our priorities straight. We have much bigger issued to solve first. Everyone touts this as being so environmentally positive, but nobody seems to care MMSD dumps billions of gallons of untreated sewage directly into one of our greatest assets. This is just not the time for something that is going to immediately add to the woes of the taxpayers.

[Polish Falcons]

I've seen all sorts of stats on this thread from 110mph to 60 mph from one stop in Madison to two proposed stops. I've seen Amtrak only makes a profit in the northeast but ridership has doubled on the Milwaukee to Chicago line - that line loses money? Anyone know where we can go to confirm all this stuff?

Here is some information I beleive to have confirmed regarding Milwaukee to Madison project plans:

- 110 mph max speed. WI DOT did a study on slow, medium, fast trains and found medium to be the most cost effective at 110

- stops in Madison, Watertown, Brookfield, and Oconomowoc. The Madison station is not final and there may be multiple stops in Madison.

- $817M is the estimated capital cost paid for entirely with federal ARRA funds. \

 

Project Management Plan WisDOT: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/recovery/docs/rail-grant-11.pdf

 

This is an older DOT study on the same project with some rosy projections but relevant info:

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d1/hsrail/docs/ea-execsum.pdf

[thebruce44]

Bruce...I really respect your opinion as an engineer. But I think this paragraph here underscores two major problems. One, if they can't even get the Milwaukee to Madison route done correctly, can we really expect them to get the rest of it right? As I said, a Dane County Airport Stop is not a Milwaukee to Madison line. It's a stop near Madison on the way to Minneapolis. Second, if the government already subsidizes Amtrak, why build a competing rail? Are they going to subsidize both of them? That's absurd. Third, have there even been any studies done to see how people are going to ride this thing?

In a word, yes, I think they can get the rest of it right. I work on jobs with IDOT and METRA, not the WISDOT. I am confident the Illinois portion will be done "correctly" but I can't really say for sure about the Madison-MKE link if WISDOT plans it. Without knowing anything specific about the current WISDOT plans I said the #1 reason in my mind they want to stay away from the downtown Madison area and its land acquisition. As someone else pointed out about the Isthmus, Madison could very well be a nightmare to build this through. With Milwaukee you could probably bring the train in from the south pretty easily, and going into Chicago wouldn't be too bad since there are already a lot of grade separated lines you could revamp for the high speed lines. The MKE to Chi line will probably have a much higher average speed than the Madison to MKE line at first, but who is to say WISDOT won't continually improve it as more funds become available.

 

The government subsidizes Amtrak, yes. It is my understanding that these new lines would be also run by Amtrak, so it wouldn't be a competing rail or company.

 

In terms of studies, I haven't seen anything about the Milwaukee to Madison area. I know the planner who just did the new intermodal Minneapolis terminal so I will ask him next week if there have been any studies when I see him. Typically there is a massive amount of planning and modeling that goes into this type of infrastructure and I am sure this will be no different.

 

Finally, in terms of the speeds people are quoting, the problem is where the trains are running. Metra trains can hit speeds up to around 70 mph if I remember correctly. They do this in areas that are grade separated or out in the middle of nowhere. These high speed trains would be the same. They would hit their top speeds in the country and in cities where there is grade separation. If the best average speed WISDOT can get right now is 60 mph this may have more to do with cost in terms of land acquisition and supporting infrastructure and not with technology as someone said. Perhaps this is just the first step and in the coming years after it is opened that average speed can be increased. When I was in highschool I rode the train from London to Paris. In England we never got above 40 mph until right before the chunnel. The trains and the technology was there, they just hadn't retrofitted the tracks yet. This may not be a one time build. It may be as simple as getting things in place for upgrades over time.

 

Anyway, I don't have a lot of specifics about this project, just trying to give an engineer's opinion on a lot of the issues that typically come from projects like this.

[yount19.u]

The airport stop in Madison is not a bad idea because this line is meant to be a regional service and not just for southern WI. Bringing the train into Madison will slow it down too much due to the density and heavy cross traffic caused by the isthmus. Also keep in mind that Madison and Dane County have been studying (with growing support) the possibility of building a local light rail system. If high speed rail comes to the airport, a local system (if built) would link up with it and get riders to other parts of the city more efficiently than buses or cabs. This would hold true in Chicago and the Twin Cities since they already have local rail systems. It could be a boost to Milwaukee's attempt to get support for a local rail system as well.

 

As a system like this gets built, ridership will not be robust immediately due to its limited destinations. But as it's expanded, more and more people will use it as an alternative to automobile and plane travel. Oil prices will continue to go up and therefore, create more of a demand for rail travel like this. Another thing to keep in mind is that train travel is not affected as much by weather and traffic, so it a more reliable form of transportation. There are also a growing number of people in this country that are living without cars due to the high cost of owning one. Linking up major populations with one another via high speed rail is a great way to increase those numbers.

 

Edit: One more thing. Yes it's expensive to maintain our roads and it will be costly to maintain additional rail lines (although not nearly as much as it is to maintain roads). But one thing the opponents are forgetting is the cost to continually expand our highways to make them wider. By taking some of the cars off the road with rail travel, we prevent this need in some areas, and at least delay it in others which saves a ton of money and land.

[Invader3K]

As far as roadways, this is an incredible invention I've been reading about for a while that seems like it may be gaining a slight amount of traction: http://www.solarroadways.com/main.html

[RyDogg66]

Where does all this money come from. Doyle just keeps putting this state in a deeper hole. We as a state are beyond broke.

I dont think Doyle has anything to do with this. As I understand it $800 million is coming from Washington as part of the Federal Stimulus.

[LouisEly]

Lots of good posts in this thread. To address some of the concerns:

 

The line needs to go right into downtown Madison. I'm not familiar with Madison

I believe Bruce addressed the main reason why it probably won't go to downtown Madison:

 

I just want to note that you guys have no idea what a pain it is to get the necessary land acquisition for this type of thing.

Bingo. Someone else mentioned the problem with downtown Madison is and always has been the isthmus. There just isn't much land available, and it is too condensed to have a train flying through there at high speeds. Even if you could get the land it would have to slow down, and that would defeat the purpose. But people aren't going to hand over their house so that a rail line can go to downtown Madison. It would be like trying to get a stop by the Bradley Center. Believe it or not, one of the biggest costs to the project will be land acquisition.

 

I hate to say it, but I think most people are too lazy or lack the forethought to plan ahead for something like that.

There is a lot of truth to that statement. However the beauty of trains is that unlike any wheeled transportation they are always on-time with at most a minute or two variance. No problems with traffic or weather. And in WI when the snow and ice storms hit you have another mode of transportation that isn't really affected by the weather.

 

I can read a book, take a nap or whatever on that ride, and not have to deal with parking, traffic, tolls and other issues.

 

Yep - that's how you have to sell it. And igor hit the nail on the head too - put in WiFi and a mini-Starbucks. And somehow if it can eliminate dealing with parking at SummerFest then I think it will sell. The biggest reason why people outside of Milwaukee don't go to Summerfest anymore is because they hate dealing with parking. The last time I went there it took over an hour just to get out of the parking lot. I could have been back to Madison by then.

 

Right but if you have to wait for a bus and then ride a bus, that's an extra 30 - 40 min to your trip

 

Nope - really easy to coordinate the buses with the trains. The trains are never more than a minute or two off schedule - literally. The buses will be waiting so you can hop right on.

 

you better believe I'd be taking a train to Madison instead of driving I-90.

And you better believe I'd be taking the train from O'Hare to Madison instead of Van Galder bus line, which can take 3.5 hours in rush hour getting out of Chicago and/or in bad weather. The last five times I have flown back to Madison I've had flights canceled and had to take that bus. If this train can cut that in half I would definitely use it.

 

One concern not brought up is if they put a stop at the airport it might greatly reduce the demand to fly out of Madison. If people can quickly get to O'Hare or Mitchell where they can fly directly somewhere instead of connecting and dealing with a layover I think business at Dane County Regional will drop.

[razzzorsharp]

If it's good enough for Ogdenville, North Haverbrook, and Brockway, it's good enough for me.

[Point Beer Is Best]

The news here in Green Bay is that there will be a rail connecting Green Bay to Milwaukee. It's being described as a 79 mph train rather than the 110 mph.

[JJHardy7]

Point,

 

Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but it seems like it would be 10 years out...

 

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11898067

 

I'm guessing this would be on the state's dime.

[homer]

And you better believe I'd be taking the train from O'Hare to Madison instead of Van Galder bus line, which can take 3.5 hors in rush hour getting out of Chicago and/or in bad weather. The last five times I have flown back to Madison I've had flights canceled and had to take that bus. If this train can cut that in half I would definitely use it.

---------------------------------

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but the train doesn't go from OHare to Madison - well not directly anyway. You'd have to take the EL from O'Hare to downtown and then take the Amtrak to Madison. There's no Amtrak service to OHare or Midway.

[Invader3K]

I still don't get why they can't put in a train that is actually fast if California and other places are apparently getting actual "high speed rail".

[thebruce44]

As far as roadways, this is an incredible invention I've been reading about for a while that seems like it may be gaining a slight amount of traction: http://www.solarroadways.com/main.html

Very interesting, but I see massive problems utilizing that technology on interstates, especially with Wisconsin's freeze/thaw and plows. It looks like the technology is way out as it is. Maybe some day on parking lots or local roads in residential areas without much truck traffic.

[thebruce44]

Where does all this money come from. Doyle just keeps putting this state in a deeper hole. We as a state are beyond broke.

I dont think Doyle has anything to do with this. As I understand it $800 million is coming from Washington as part of the Federal Stimulus.

The money going to the states has been diluted pretty heavily since it was originally going to just be Wis-IL, Cali, and FL. The federal funding will be enough for surveying, Phase 1 work, and hopefully the land acquisition. This is probably going to be a fairly long process though.

[Invader3K]

Very interesting, but I see massive problems utilizing that technology on interstates, especially with Wisconsin's freeze/thaw and plows. It looks like the technology is way out as it is. Maybe some day on parking lots or local roads in residential areas without much truck traffic.

Well, that's the thing...it wouldn't necessarily have to cover every roadway...but if one large parking lot made out of the panels could supply a whole factory, or a city block, it would hugely alleviate our current energy needs in this country.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Point,

 

Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but it seems like it would be 10 years out...

 

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11898067

 

I'm guessing this would be on the state's dime.

That's pretty similar to what was reported on the news. Like others here, as a sports fan and occasional weekend traveler, I'm pretty pumped by this. If I can get to Miller Park and back in the same amount of time (or less time if they put in the 110mph train) or get to Chicago in three hours without having to drive and worry about the traffic congestion, sign me up. But I do see the concerns that others are having with the fact that these trains will be running mostly empty during the week. My family would certainly make more trips to Miller Park for weekday evening games if I didn't have to worry about driving/parking, however.

[thebruce44]

BTW, if we are talking about revolutionary transportation technology you guys may want to check this out:

 

http://www.tubularrail.com/index.html

 

The basic idea is to put the tracks on a single train car itself and the wheels on structural supports spread out. The train always contacts enough of the supports so that it can be cantilevered to the next support as it goes forward. It could be used in cities where land is at a premium or between cities for higher speed lines but for a much smaller cost since you are looking at less than 50% of the materials required to build an actual track.

 

I've read through the website and the crazy thing is the whole idea seems entirely valid using existing technology from an engineering standpoint. Texas A&M donated a bunch of land so that they can build and test the thing now so who knows how far out it is, but something like this would make it entirely possible to get a station in Madison for less than half the cost of purchasing land and running a huge right of way through the downtown area.

[valpocrewsader]

Put me firmly in the "collosal waste of money" camp. Beyond perhaps some initial boom of novelty, I think ridership of this line will be laughably low. There is no real call for this from residents of Madison or Milwaukee -- no demand at all.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can only think of two reasons someone would use this Mil to Mad line:

- Ability to read/compute/nap? instead of focusing on driving

- Feel like you're doing something good for the planet?

 

Whereas, I can easily think of more significant reasons not to use this line:

- No freedom. Stuck on the train with no option to stop to get something to eat or use the bathroom. At your destination, you can't venture to different places on your own whim or as the situation changes. When you're done at your destination, you're at the mercy of the train schedule dictating when you can come home. Being Wisconsin, where it's unpleasant outside five months of the year, you want to be able to deliver yourself as close to the doorstop of your destination(s) as possible -- train makes you jump through hoops of waiting for buses, walking, etc. No thanks.

 

- Cost. Assuming it's like Hiawatha, this will not be cheaper than driving. At least with Chicago, you're up against sometimes horrible traffic and huge parking fees, but these two huge negatives don't really exist with Mil/Mad so there's even less reason for someone to swallow the cost. And we're not even talking about the extra cost of buses or cabs on either end of ther trip. And if you're driving yourself to the station and/or being picked up by a driver on the other end, that's not exactly free either.

 

- Don't save time. Person A gets in his car in suburban milwaukee, hits I-94, and drives directly to the doortstep of his madison-area destination. Person B drives to the train station, waits some amount of time for the train, endures a few bedroom community stops, arrives in some centralized madison location, gets on a bus or takes a cab or waits for a ride to pick him up, eventually makes it to madison destination. Person B probably isn't saving time unless this train can reall, really fly.

 

- Can't carry large/many items with you. Sometimes you might be traveling light, other times you need a trunk or your back seats to carry who-knows-what. People are talking about going to Miller Park -- only if you're not going to tailgate or you're going to depend on others to set up a tailgate that you crash.

 

To me, the two "pros" are very measley compared with the cons. I don't want to be flippant and say "nobody will use this", but I really think it's only a slight exagerration to say nobody will use this. I think the only individuals to really use and benefit from this will be Madison-based government officials and employees who make frequent visits to the state's largest city. That alone is no justification for this massive project and ongoing expense. It will become extraordinarily expensive on a per-user basis to operate, just completely and utterly wasteful. We'll need a very strong and practical leader at some point down the road to shut the line down and stop the bleading. The waste we're talking about makes me want to cry. Or scream. Or be violent.

[JimH5]

$823 million for 80 miles? That's over $10 million per mile. Obscene.

 

They project the ticket fee to be between $40 and $66 round trip--AND 1.17 million riders in the first year.

 

First off, how can that be possible? 22,500 fares per week? That's a laughable overestimate.

 

AND, those fees and those riders won't be enough to fund the ongoing operating costs. That's going to cost taxpayers a minimum of $7.5 million per year in subsidies.

 

As if they're aren't already wasting transportation dollars, take $7.5 million (probably closer to $30 million) out of the budget for road construction and repair, and tell me that's not going to result in 3rd world highways.

 

If you're married, with two kids, how often are you going to drop $200 just in transportation costs to take a train ride to a town 80 miles away?

[homer]

As if they're aren't already wasting transportation dollars, take $7.5

million (probably closer to $30 million) out of the budget for road

construction and repair, and tell me that's not going to result in 3rd

world highways.

Anyone drive up 41/45 from Milwaukee to Appleton? 45 splits right after Lake Butte Des Morts. We used to take the two lane highway back when I was a kid and it took about 1 hr and 25 minutes to get from Oshkosh to my dad's hometown. Now that same highway is four lanes almost the whole way. It takes us 1 hr and 10 minutes to get to my dad's hometown. So for how ever many millions it took to expand that stretch of highway, I can now see my uncle's farm 15 minutes earlier than I used to. And did we really need to make Hwy 10 four lanes from Appleton to the booming metropolis of Fremont? Now we're spending about a billion dollars to expand I94 from Milwaukee to the Illinois state line. This one really confused me - I drive that stretch at least once a month and there's never any traffic problems. Even now that it's at two lanes due to the construction there's no traffic problems. We have enough roads and enough lanes to go around - more than enough in much of the state (although I'm sure Wally in Winneconne is grateful that he can get to his ice shanty on Lake Winnebago 5 minutes earlier in the morning). WiDOT can easily afford a $7.5 million allocation towards trains as long as they stop with the irresponsible over building of roads and highways.

[Polish Falcons]

$823 million for 80 miles? That's over $10 million per mile. Obscene.

 

They project the ticket fee to be between $40 and $66 round trip--AND 1.17 million riders in the first year.

 

First off, how can that be possible? 22,500 fares per week? That's a laughable overestimate.

 

AND, those fees and those riders won't be enough to fund the ongoing operating costs. That's going to cost taxpayers a minimum of $7.5 million per year in subsidies.

 

As if they're aren't already wasting transportation dollars, take $7.5 million (probably closer to $30 million) out of the budget for road construction and repair, and tell me that's not going to result in 3rd world highways.

 

If you're married, with two kids, how often are you going to drop $200 just in transportation costs to take a train ride to a town 80 miles away?

Where do you get those figures of $7.5M to $30M per year from? I'm curious because I haven't been able to find operating cost estimates. Is that a low-high range estimate of operating dollars - fare revenue? If so I think that would be fantastic because much of the remainder could realistically be offset by economic benefits of train station area development and job creation, especially at the low end. I actually think that a pretty positive estimate. Even if the cost was $30M a year that is less than 5% of the State's transportation budget. Assuming that an increase in transit budget = a decrease in the road budget, I highly doubt a 5% cut would make our highways represent the 3rd world. Although I don't think that's how they'd budget anyway; there are probably more creative approaches available.

 

I definitely agree that the cost per ticket is concerning. At that cost, if I'm using public transportation to get from Milwaukee to Madison I might just stick with the badger bus even though I'd prefer the train.

[JimH5]

Here is the JSOnline link to the article where I got my figures:

 

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/83000147.html

 

The $30 million figure was made up by me, as I don't see how they could possibly find 22,500 fares per week, considering the $40-66 roundtrip fee.

 

If they don't get that many riders, then the annual subsidy has to go up. . .so I pulled $30 million out of the air. It could be their estimated $7.5 million, or it could be way more than that.

 

Even at the low price of $40 per roundtrip, it's not going to work for commuters. Do you know anyone that's going to spend $800 per month PLUS taxis/buses/parking to go back and forth to Madison?

 

It's an exceedingly expensive model not even counting the initial $813 million.

[thebruce44]

$823 million for 80 miles? That's over $10 million per mile. Obscene.

 

They project the ticket fee to be between $40 and $66 round trip--AND 1.17 million riders in the first year.

 

First off, how can that be possible? 22,500 fares per week? That's a laughable overestimate.

 

AND, those fees and those riders won't be enough to fund the ongoing operating costs. That's going to cost taxpayers a minimum of $7.5 million per year in subsidies.

 

As if they're aren't already wasting transportation dollars, take $7.5 million (probably closer to $30 million) out of the budget for road construction and repair, and tell me that's not going to result in 3rd world highways.

 

If you're married, with two kids, how often are you going to drop $200 just in transportation costs to take a train ride to a town 80 miles away?

Interested to see where you are getting these figures from too.

 

Also, I wanted to point out that the ridership between Milwaukee and Madison won't just be people going from Milwaukee to Madison and vice versa. As I said before, the whole reason this thing is being built in the first place is to connect the 10 million people in the Chicago metro area to the 1.5 million people in Milwaukee area to the 3.2 million people in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. If the state and its tax payers feel so strongly that this will be a huge disaster, then they can very easily pass on this federal funding and it can go to Illinois and Minnesota and to the track in between. However, if I were still a Milwaukee or Madison resident (I have lived in both cities) I would be happy to take this federal funding for a stop on the line.

Whereas, I can easily think of more significant reasons not to use this line: - No freedom. Stuck on the train with no option to stop to get something to eat or use the bathroom.

 

Have you ever been on a train before? The whole point is that you don't have to stop to eat or go to the bathroom.

 

Being Wisconsin, where it's unpleasant outside five months of the year,

you want to be able to deliver yourself as close to the doorstop of

your destination(s) as possible -- train makes you jump through hoops

of waiting for buses, walking, etc. No thanks.

 

Fair enough, public transportation isn't for everyone. For me I have walked over a mile outside everyday as part of my commute for 1.5 years now and I love it. Sure sometimes its rainy or snowy, but I sit at a desk all day and feel lazy. I walked everywhere for my 5 years in college too and would honestly choose to walk or bike a mile or 2 over commuting without a second thought.

[thebruce44]

Even at the low price of $40 per roundtrip, it's not going to work for commuters. Do you know anyone that's going to spend $800 per month PLUS taxis/buses/parking to go back and forth to Madison?

 

Madison to MKE is around 80 miles? Most people probably average something like 20 miles to the gallon. A round trip would then be 8 gallons. Say gas is $3.50 a gallon ($28 round trip). Say gas gets up to $4.00 a gallon ($32 round trip). How much is parking in Mke? $10 or $15 for a day in the city? Then you have also saved 160 miles on your car. It could be pretty even for one person when looking at it like that if everything else it considered equal.

 

Then factor in that you are not actually driving. When I last took the train from Chicago to MKE I actually billed an hour of my time since I was working. I am assuming most people get paid over $20/hr. Well at that point I think its pretty obvious which is the better value but I know not everyone can work on the train.