What's up with Corey Hart? Latest: Hart wins arbitration hearing (post # 190)

[mletto157]

So because he had a good 2007, he just gets a pass from now on?? What? A 25-year old player puts up a .892 OPS and you're not supposed to expect him to get up near that level ever again in his career? You're just supposed to sit back and accept a .150 point drop? I'm sure the Brewers organization doesn't think that way. I hope they don't anyway. Players usually get better and hit their peak in the 27 to 29 year old seasons, not regress.

 

If you're going to continue to think like this, than you're probably going to be extremely disappointed in Casey McGehee this year. Players routinely have great seasons followed by them coming back to earth when the rest of the league starts adjusting to them.

[jhart05]

"What do you people expect him to do? Go and sign a tender sheet for 750k and call it a day?"

 

Umm, no. Take the 30% raise to $4.2 (something like that) the Brewers offered you, then call it a day.

 

 

One good season, does not a career make, or a bigger pay raise justify. String a few of those together and he will get paid like he thinks he should.

 

If Corey had signed the big contract after 2007 instead of turning it down, we would have just as many, probably more people, complaining here that the Brewers signed yet another player to a bad contract.

[jhart05]

If you're going to continue to think like this, than you're probably going to be extremely disappointed in Casey McGehee this year. Players routinely have great seasons followed by them coming back to earth when the rest of the league starts adjusting to them.

 

 

There are plenty more other players who make adjustments on their own and are able sustain their level of productivity, or at least not drop off as badly as Hart has.

 

Also, that is exactly the reason why the Brewers should stand their ground, take him to Arby court, and why I hope the Brewers win this one.

 

 

I just have one final thing to say...

 

If Hart could do just one thing at the plate, I think he would solve a lot of his own problems, and get the pay day he thinks he deserves. That is to stop swinging at the low outside slider. To me that's the adjustment pitchers have made on him and he hasn't been able to make his own adjustment to counter. I don't know why teams ever throw him a strike. I'd pitch him low and outside 'till he proves he can lay off it. Which he hasn't yet, and why I think his production has dropped off the past two years.

[Invader3K]

The difference between McGehee and Hart is that McGehee seems to have a better swing, and also plate discipline.

[thebruce44]

Gabe Gross had a WAR of 2.4 in '08 and 0.8 in '09 vs. Hart's 1.0 and 0.7. He just got a 1 yr $0.75 mil deal while Corey is going into his Arby hearing trying to get an extra $0.65 over the $4.15 offer from the Brewers. I just don't see how anyone can side with Hart on this one.

 

I know it isn't going to be a popular opinion and I doubt it happens, but I wouldn't mind cutting him at the end of ST if he isn't doing well. It could very well come back to bite us, but he is gone anyway after this year and that money could be so much better spent in my mind.

[sheethead]

I know it isn't going to be a popular opinion and I doubt it happens, but I wouldn't mind cutting him at the end of ST if he isn't doing well. It could very well come back to bite us, but he is gone anyway after this year and that money could be so much better spent in my mind.

 

FWIW, Its popular with me :D

[lcbj68c]

Umm, no. Take the 30% raise to $4.2 (something like that) the Brewers offered you, then call it a day

 

That's funny, I didn't see the Brewers bending over backwards to do Corey Hart any favors when they gave him a 444,000 salary in 2008 after hitting .293/.353 and driving in 80+ runs in 2007. That's the problem here. You want to nickel and dime a player when the system is convenient for you and then get upset when he nickel and dimes you in return. Which is exactly what he is doing. Management treated him a certain way in 2008 and likewise they get what's coming now, having to jump through hoops even if they do win in arbitration. He's taking a gamble that doesn't appear too bad if he loses. Fans need to stop taking these contract negotations so darn personally and just go out and root for the team/player irregardless of what he makes. Don't lose sleep at night at what paycheck Corey Hart gets twice a month.

[thebruce44]

lcbj68c,

 

Have you read any of this thread. Your argument was already made several times and responded to.

[MessiahRp]

BTW did anyone manage to see this?

ESPN's Eric Karabell on Corey Hart

[Invader3K]

Management treated him a certain way in 2008 and likewise they get what's coming now, having to jump through hoops even if they do win in arbitration. He's taking a gamble that doesn't appear too bad if he loses. Fans need to stop taking these contract negotations so darn personally and just go out and root for the team/player irregardless of what he makes. Don't lose sleep at night at what paycheck Corey Hart gets twice a month.

Wasn't it after the '07 season that the Brewers offered Hart a contract in the neighborhood of $40 million that he turned down?

[lcbj68c]

thebruce44]lcbj68c,

 

Have you read any of this thread. Your argument was already made several times and responded to.

And yet the whinning continues......

 

[sheethead]

Exactly, Corey keeps whining about how some fans don't like him and how he should make more money. Its all going to come down to him anyway. Put up numbers and get paid. Play like the last two years and fade. Its all up to Corey, not the Brewers or the fans or the media or....

[lcbj68c]

Exactly, Corey keeps whining about how some fans don't like him and how he should make more money. Its all going to come down to him anyway. Put up numbers and get paid. Play like the last two years and fade. Its all up to Corey, not the Brewers or the fans or the media or....

 

And some fickle fans keep whining about what's Corey's business. I would never dream of writing on a public blog that I wished you'd take less money at your job. Now we can debate Corey's salary in terms of his performance and he's definitely not deserving of 3.9 million, but as previously stated, he was definitely worth more than the 444,000 the team gave him in 2008. I just don't agree with people coming on here and demanding Corey "settle at what the Brewers figure is and call it a day". Let Corey work out his business, that's what he hired an agent for afterall. Support him on the field when the season starts and leave it at that.

[TheCrew07]

I believe the player should do whatever he can to maximize his salary, I have no issue with that idea at all.

 

However I also expect people in general to be realistic about their situation and take some personal responsibility for what's happened to them. Corey turned down a Braun type deal from the Brewers in 2008, he passed on security to maximize his yearly earnings. He's certainly entitled by the CBA to do such and I hold no animosity towards him for doing so. I've said numerous times that my 3 favorite Brewers from this crop were Braun, Hardy, and Hart. I honestly thought that Hart had the potential to push the 30/30 mark in HRs and stolen bases while hitting for a high batting average. He was definitely one of my boys... I went so far as to argue for him to get playing over Jenkins and Mench, I felt at the time he was the superior player riding the pine.

 

That being said, these arby dramatics with Hart every year have gotten under my skin, and yes I understand how arby works as a percentage of a FA contract and how the system works in general. This isn't about players getting screwed when they are cheap, that's the price these guys pay for being able to hit FA after 6 years, the lack of a salary cap, and market disparity. The system is what it is, I don't like it much, I think the whole system from the draft to FA compensation needs to be addressed and overhauled, but that's a different topic entirely. This situation gets under my skin simply because Corey is so sure he's worth the money.... I know multiple professional athletes personally from multiple sports, I've been very fortunate in that regard, all of them have tremendous self confidence, some would call it arrogance, but it's a necessary ingredient of their success. The whole situation smacks of supreme arrogance on Corey's part. I know I've been critical of Melvin in regards to pitching and giving a contract to Hall (as Hall wasn't a long term solution anywhere), but he's been very fair in arbitration hearings for as long as I can remember, and my gut feeling is that the organization has negotiated in good faith with Corey.

 

The Brewer offer was fair, the counter offer was high but not outrageously so, just settle in the middle and call it a day. Is his financial situation so dire that the couple of hundred K over the mid point makes or breaks the deal? Come on Corey... look at your even performance the last 2 seasons and be reasonable, that's all I ask.

[lcbj68c]

Well said Crew. However, I think that Corey is just doing what his agent tells him to do. I think the Brewers offer is very fair, but in the past, particularly when these kids are performing when they are young and not getting recognized in the paycheck for it, that gets under their skin a little bit. Corey wasn't the first to speak out, as Fielder and others have expressed great disdain for how the Brewers renewed their contracts in the past. Melvin has stated that he hasn't even spoken to Corey directly about this matter. I also haven't seen exactly what the Brewers offer was to know if they were close to meeting in the middle of arby submitted numbers.

 

Either way, I'd never tell a guy not to maximize his earnings. You never know when your season will be your last to make significant money (Koskie). I've never been a sports agent, and if his agent feels they have a case to take to arbitration, then Corey should pursue every means in order to maximize his earnings. Perhaps, the agent is taking risk in a bigger fee or smaller fee and Corey has no risk? For these reasons, I think it's arrogant on the part of some fickle fans to whine over this matter and just demand that he take what the Brewers offer. He did you all a favor by not signing this "supposed long term offer" and it turned out to be the best decision for you, so why not just let him go about his business and then you can boo his performance on the field after 6 at-bats into the season, which I fully expect. Heck, he'll probably even be boo'd on opening day for missing time with appendix surgery.

[sheethead]

"supposed long term offer"

Are you insinuating the offer was not real or somehow made up by malcontent fans? Why say things like this?

 

I would never dream of writing on a public blog that I wished you'd take less money at your job.

 

Good thing, because we don't have salary arbitrators here. Like I said, Corey can do whatever he wants, but to think that fans are just going to stay out of his business (especially when he got in the fans' business during the 2007 collapse) is unrealistic. Pro sports are as public as politics, and fans are just as passionate. I don't for one minute feel the need to defend Corey Hart in his pursuit for an extra $600k. Conversely I don't feel the need to slam him for letting his agent attempt to get paid an extra $30k or whatever.

 

What I do hope for is the Brewers winning the arbitration hearing if it gets there. I like the Brewers way more than Corey Hart, and I am sure he is feeling the pressure coming into this year knowing he (or his agent, however you like to think of it) turned down set-for-life financial security in exchange for a chance at the mother load. Unfortunately for him, in this day and age, the mother load ain't what it used to be (Gary Matthews). Only special players are now allowed to cash in. Is Corey Hart a special player? I would consider placing a wager that he makes less in 2011 than he makes in 2010.

[lcbj68c]

Are you insinuating the offer was not real or somehow made up by malcontent fans? Why say things like this

 

I have not seen the offer, nor I have seen the offer in full in the newspaper or on electronic media. I vaguely recalling hearing about an offer being worked on, but I don't remember the details every being presented, nor do I recall if the offer was every made. Furthermore, if such an offer was made, I think it's immature and short-sighted to automatically speculate it was the bottome line at which Corey Hart or his agent were turning down. Perhaps they didn't like the number of years, didn't like the bonuses, didn't like the option years, or maybe, Corey has no interest in remaining in Milwaukee. Perhaps he wants to go to Cincinnati, closer to home, or somewhere else.

 

but to think that fans are just going to stay out of his business (especially when he got in the fans' business during the 2007 collapse) is unrealistic.

What business of the fans did he get into? Did he say you should pay more at the gate? Pay more for your popcorn? Only sit below the terrace level if you make more than 25k a year? What business do the fans have? They have a business to buy a ticket, sit in their assigned seat, and cheer. IIRC, Corey was upset about the fans booing Turnbow, Yost, Gagne, and other players who were trying their best and getting beat by the opponent trying their best. If that's the case...if fans open their mouths and boo, are players not allowed to open their mouths as well?

 

I hate this belief that "fans" think they are entitled to something other than rooting for their team. Corey Hart is a human being, same as you and me. Puts his pants on the same way. If a fan can act out "negatively" and that's just ok, why can't a player? You can't possibly be upset about these negotiations today due to some comment made in 2007? At the end of the day, Corey needs to do what's best for Corey for 2010, as we are guaranteed no tomorrow. My ticket price remains the same, my popcorn price remains the same irregardless of what Corey makes....but additionally my love for Brewers baseball and rooting for Corey Hart is the same...irregardless of what his salary is, or what he had to go through to reach that agreement.

[strawbossisevil]

I agree with sheethead, who are you to tell people how they can perceive Hart?

 

It was clear that last season Hart had a pathetic season, not worthy of a raise at all. Now he is certainly entitled to try for a raise, it´s his right. But if he chooses to fight for a raise he hasn´t earned, I think it is the right of a fan to recognize that and react accordingly.

 

And, quite truthfully, his contract costs ARE reflected in the costs to fans. That 600k comes from somewhere, doesn´t it? Also that 600k could certainly have an effect on our ability to add another player that helps our team later in the season.

 

All I´m gonna say is that if Hart gets his raise, he better give 100% in earning it with his play this season.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't understand where the implication that he might not give 100% comes from. This, imo, is the problem with fan expectations. Sometimes dips in performance aren't related to effort given by the players.

[sheethead]

I hate this belief that "fans" think they are entitled to something other than rooting for their team.

 

I hate to break this to you, but rooting for your team includes the occasional booing, especially in 2007. Show me a planet where fans don't boo when the team they paid money to go see was sucking it up. If only we were more like Europe, where we would get into giant brawls and spit on the under performing players as they walked off the field, then you really would have something to whine about.

 

Now, since cheering/booing is my business that I paid for and subsidized Corey Harts salary with, and Corey Hart wants to tell me how to cheer, then he is getting into my business. Shut up and play! Maybe then people won't get on your case when a matter like this arises. People don't forget, and it festers. To whine and moan about the fan backlash is to whine and moan yourself. Understand the psychology of the masses and you will get it.

 

Again, I'm not saying its right, just that I understand it.

[sheethead]

I don't understand where the implication that he might not give 100% comes from.

 

Very often Hart looks like he is not giving 100% effort. It may just be his country, golly-gee-willikers style oozing out, but he appears doggish at times. At least to me anyway. I am not saying he doesn't give the effort.

[rluzinski]

"I doubt anyone reading this right now can say the same. FWIW, Fangraphs had his performance worth (in average free agent dollars), $3.2 mil last year and $4.6 mil the year before. If he was worth what a school teacher was worth to his employer, he wouldn't even be in the league."

 

Come on. You knew you were going to be called out on this, right? I guess I'll be the one to do it.

 

And I don't really care what Fangraphs says. I'm don't have a beef with his salary last year...but it's clear he didn't earn a huge raise. A $900,000 raise is pretty darn generous. His production is replaceable. If he is angry that he turned down a larger contract earlier in his career, he can look in the mirror for who he has to blame.

Being called out for what? Realizing that a broom sweeper is lworth ess than an engineer and an engineer is worth less than a doctor? Do you referring to something else?

 

And if his production was replaceable for significantly less, the Brewers wouldn't have even offered him arbitration. They don't have to pay him a penny this year if they don't think he's worth whatever he'll get awarded in arbitration.

 

And AGAIN, his raise shouldn't be proportional to his relative production the last 2 years. A player in his arbitration years typically get's a 20% bump in salary each year for the same projected performance . It sounds like your beef should be with the system but you want to ignore that variable for some reason.

 

Hart deserves as much as he can get. The Brewers deserve to pay as little as they can for his services. If Hart is overestimating his worth (and it appears that he is), I have no emotional response to that. He rolled the dice and he has a good chance of losing. As a fan, I don't feel wronged.

 

 

 

[strawbossisevil]

I don't understand where the implication that he might not give 100% comes from. This, imo, is the problem with fan expectations. Sometimes dips in performance aren't related to effort given by the players.

All I was saying is that he better pull out all stops in regards to his performance. If that means more time in the cage, more time fielding fly balls, eating healthy vs unhealthy food, so be it. Go to extra lengths to earn it and make what you are being paid worthwhile to those who are paying your salary (the fans).

[TooLiveBrew]

Right, but why do you feel it necessary to say that? To me it implies that you already dislike Hart & question his effort & dedication.

[lcbj68c]

subsidized Corey Harts salary with

 

That's funny. Like the police officer whom shouldn't write you a ticket because you already pay his salary with your taxes? Where were you when Corey Hart was in little league, puting in extra hours on the diamond with his dad with the hopes of being a better ballplayer? Were you attending games at Greenwood High School when Corey was busting his rump in the weight room, taking extra infield with the hopes of getting drafted? Did you attend games at Ogden or High Desert and take part in subsidizing his salary then, when he was investing in himself for this type of payday? Were you around the house when Corey was doing the right things for his family, staying out of trouble, giving back to the communities in Wisconsin and Kentucky? The point being, Corey Hart has worked his entire childhood, teenage years, and young adult life with the prospect for someday getting a contract as big as the one he has an opportunity to do so today. Most of which, you weren't around to witness and subsidize. To tell him to pound sand and play for whatever he is offered simply because the last two years of such a journey have been below-average, and because he made a comment in response to your verbal boos, is pretty high and mighty. Again, I'm certain I purchase some product or service at which you contribute to society, but I wouldn't for one second walk into your job or post on a public forum what I thought about how you negotiate your salary, as it's none of my business, despite the fact that I may "subsidize" your job in some way.

 

Shut up and play!

 

He did play...likewise....shut up and watch. That could be said as well. He didn't outdo his pitching opponent at the plate, that happens. When you boo, which you've acknowledged you have a right to do, then he can reply however he pleases verbally, as you did.

This conversation is really nauseating, and I'll read your reply, but I think we're going in circles and I have no new points.

 

If his production was replaceable for less, the Brewers wouldn't have even offered him arbitration. So you are obviously wrong.

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