What's up with Corey Hart? Latest: Hart wins arbitration hearing (post # 190)

[trwi7]

His agent is dumb. The only thing they have to stand on to demand a raise is his .900ish OPS season three years ago compared to his .760ish OPS the past two seasons.

 

There's no way he gets a $1.5M raise after the season he had last year.

[tdeggie]

Anyone else thinking that this is a calculated decision by management making players aware that yes we don't want to go to arbitration, but we will? I'm not saying that Hart is correct and I think the Brewers made a very fair offer, but with Melvin's record he feels he needs to go to one? Just a thought, let me know what you think.

[BREWERPRIDE]

Anyone else thinking that this is a calculated decision by management making players aware that yes we don't want to go to arbitration, but we will? I'm not saying that Hart is correct and I think the Brewers made a very fair offer, but with Melvin's record he feels he needs to go to one? Just a thought, let me know what you think.

Yeah I think Harts agents thinks that, "oh Melvin doesnt want to go to a hearing, so I will be stingy and go really high"

 

I bet they work out a deal near the Brewers offer before the hearing, the only argument his agent has is Harts month he missed from surgery.

[thebruce44]

To me Corey's problem in MKE is that the Brewers essentially have a guy in Gamel that could probably match Harts offensive and defensive production at this point for 1/10th the salary.

 

I don't have a lot of sympathy for him when he tries to squeeze out more money. I know the Arby system doesn't work that way and Hart is supposed to be looked at in a vacuum, but as a fan I see it something like that.

[Invader3K]

It could be. Melvin's actions in the near past with regards to Hall, Hardy, etc. seem to indicate that they're not messing around with under-performing players anymore, mainly because they simply can't afford to if they actually want to make the playoffs again.

[jhart05]

Corey lost weight? Where did he loose it from? His brain? The guy didn't have much weight on him to begin with.

 

Get a new agent, tell him to take what the Brewers are offering, and be glad you have a job.

 

Go out and work your butt off in 2010 and get back to the .900+ OPS player you were, or Gamel is going to take your job.

 

Oh yeah, one other thing...STOP SWINGING AT THE LOW OUTSIDE SLIDER!!!

[jhart05]

"The Brewers filed for $4.15 million in arbitration, with Hart requesting $4.8 million. That would make the midpoint $4.475 million. Last year, Hart made $3.25 million."

 

 

Hell, I think $4.15 is too much.

 

He's a below average RFer on defense and average at best at the plate. Wish I could get a 30% raise for being an average worker.

[saget]

"You know going in that they're going to say the worst things they can and we're going to say the best things we can," said Hart. "That's the way it goes. I have thick skin. I know a lot of fans don't like me. But I have fans that do like me."

 

That quote just irritates me. Why do you think it is that a lot of fans don't like you, Corey? Think about that one real hard.

[monty57]

His agent is dumb. The only thing they have to stand on to demand a raise is his .900ish OPS season three years ago compared to his .760ish OPS the past two seasons.

 

There's no way he gets a $1.5M raise after the season he had last year.

Agreed. I may be wrong, but I believe the arbitration panel only uses the previous two years' data. If so, Hart really doesn't have much ground to stand on. He's been in the bottom third of all MLB RF's in offensive production (as measured by OPS) for those years. His 20/20 string of two years was broken last year. What's he going to say... "I'm the fastest guy on the roster?"

 

I understand trying to maximize earnings, but Hart really played this wrong. He should've put his tail between his legs, took the "mandatory raise" he gets in arby, and busted his butt to do whatever it takes to play well again. If he has a poor start to the season, I think there's a good chance he'll find himself on the bench, then cut and fighting for a job on a minor league contract somewhere next year.

 

I hope he gets things together and plays up to his ability. It'll help his future, and the Brewers could really use good numbers out of him.

[TooLiveBrew]

If he has a poor start to the season, I think there's a good chance he'll find himself on the bench, then cut and fighting for a job on a minor league contract somewhere next year.

 

I can't take any more of the overstatements regarding Hart. While he's not a top-flight MLB RF, the idea that a guy in his prime-aged seasons would be fighting for a job on a MiLB contract is just absurd. As fans we really, really need to step back from that ledge. It's just way too easy to overreact to player performance, which always has & always will vary quite a bit from season to season. 'DFA Rickie Weeks!' ... 'Cut Dave Bush!' ... 'Cut Corey Hart!'

 

Let's just say I'm grateful that we have a GM that doesn't make these types of overreacting moves.

 

 

Go out and work your butt off in 2010 and get back to the .900+ OPS player you were, or Gamel is going to take your job.

 

To me, this mentality is the problem, not Hart. He had a fantastic year in 2007, and instead of appreciating that & just how hard it is to consistently be a good hitter in MLB, people are getting all over Hart for not fulfilling their own relatively unrealistic expectations of him. Each of the four projections that FanGraphs lists on player pages has Hart turning in a line of roughly a .330 OBP/.460 SLG/.790 OPS. So yeah, let's go ahead & just cut him if he starts the season slow.

[trwi7]

Didn't they have him at an .800ish OPS last year too?

 

He's been below average and easily replaceable the past two years. When he's trying to get every penny possible when he doesn't deserve it based on performance, it's going to anger fans. When they see him lazily jog after flyballs, it's going to be worse.

[TooLiveBrew]

When he's trying to get every penny possible when he doesn't deserve it based on performance, it's going to anger fans.

 

Ok, I get that. I just wish people would be more realistic. He turned in a .892 OPS in 2007 while making peanuts relative to his peers & his own production. And yes, that's how the system works. But you can't have that attitude about it when the player is being underpaid & not when he's seeking to make as much money as he can get... or seeking to be overpaid, I'm sure in the eyes of many fans. Is $4.5M or whatever even overpaying for a mid- or upper-.700s OPS? I'm honestly not sure.

 

I know some people loathe these figures, but since I don't know where else to look for a quick comparison, FanGraphs has his production in 2008 worth $4.6M & last season's as $3.2M (& they include defense). So let's say we're reasonable & forecast a 2010 OPS of .750-.780. I'd have to guess that he's going to be roughly worth what he's after.

EDIT: Xavier Nady signed with the Cubs for a 1 year, $3.3M deal. And he's 31 this year, bats RH, plays RF with what appears to be below-average defense, and is coming off an injury that forced him to miss the entire past season. Career OPS of .792, career OBP of .335 & SLG of .458. Basically as carbon-copy of Hart as you can get. If he were healthy last season, and still hit the FA market, there's no way I can see him not getting at least a deal of 1 yr./$4.5M, and that's at age 31.

[thebruce44]

Ok, I get that. I just wish people would be more realistic. He turned in a .892 OPS in 2007 while making peanuts relative to his peers & his own production. And yes, that's how the system works. But you can't have that attitude about it when the player is being underpaid & not when he's seeking to make as much money as he can get... or seeking to be overpaid, I'm sure in the eyes of many fans.

 

So because he had a great year 3 years ago while being paid according to the system, now he deserves more than the system typically dictates? And when he is clearly trending downward?

 

I know some people loathe these figures, but since I don't know where else to look for a quick comparison, FanGraphs has his production in 2008 worth $4.6M & last season's as $3.2M (& they include defense). So let's say we're reasonable & forecast a 2010 OPS of .750-.780. I'd have to guess that he's going to be roughly worth what he's after.

 

The reason people loathe those figures is they tend to be used incorrectly and misunderstood more often than not. The price of midlevel free agents is well below what it was in the past. Hart was worth 1 win above replacement and 0.7 wins above replacement in 08 and 09 respectively. Maybe a good comp would be Matt Diaz who is older, somewhat of a part time player, but is also in his 3rd year of Arby, produced 1.8 WAR the last two years, and is someone I would expect to well outperform Hart this coming season. ATL signed him last month to a 1 yr $2.55 mil contract and I believe they expect him to be a full time player this season.

 

Xavier Nady signed with the Cubs for a 1 year, $3.3M deal. And he's 31 this year, bats RH, plays RF with what appears to be below-average defense, and is coming off an injury that forced him to miss the entire past season. Career OPS of .792, career OBP of .335 & SLG of .458. Basically as carbon-copy of Hart as you can get. If he were healthy last season, and still hit the FA market, there's no way I can see him not getting at least a deal of 1 yr./$4.5M, and that's at age 31.

 

Nady appears to have put it together in 2008 (4.0 WAR), then was setback by injuries in 2009 and basically did not play. He isn't coming off of 2 underpreforming years where he just plain sucked. He had a great year, then was hurt. He is also a FA and all he got was $3.3 mil as you said. Hart has looked pretty bad for 2 seasons now with no excuse such as an injury (apendix issue aside). Pretty different situations, but if anything it just futher shows how ridiculous Hart's salary desire is becoming.

 

Honestly, he has looked more like a 4th outfielder if you just look at the last two years. I could see Jody Gerut (2 mil in his 3rd Arby year and 3.3 wins above replacement the last two years) out preforming him and taking his starting spot. And from all the quotes on JSonline I would guess Hart has turned down an offer above $4.5 mil to hold out for $4.8 mil. It seems like the reactions from people here are pretty realistic really. He needs to shut his mouth and play, and its probably going to be for the generous $4.15 mil the Brewers submitted.

[jhart05]

"He had a fantastic year in 2007, and instead of appreciating that &

just how hard it is to consistently be a good hitter in MLB, people are

getting all over Hart for not fulfilling their own relatively

unrealistic expectations of him."

 

So because he had a good 2007, he just gets a pass from now on?? What? A 25-year old player puts up a .892 OPS and you're not supposed to expect him to get up near that level ever again in his career? You're just supposed to sit back and accept a .150 point drop? I'm sure the Brewers organization doesn't think that way. I hope they don't anyway. Players usually get better and hit their peak in the 27 to 29 year old seasons, not regress.

 

No one would be talking about him if he took the decent raise the Brewers were willing to give him. Fans are upset with him, especially these days, because based upon what he's done in the two years since, he has been very average at best, but for some reason thinks he deserves a bigger raise.

 

Corey, find your 2007 form again and you will get paid. If he doesn't the Brewers try to trade him for a #5 starter or a AAA prospect and more Gamel to the OF.

[bobskube]

Corey lost weight? Where did he loose it from? His brain? The guy didn't have much weight on him to begin with.

 

Get a new agent, tell him to take what the Brewers are offering, and be glad you have a job.

 

Go out and work your butt off in 2010 and get back to the .900+ OPS player you were, or Gamel is going to take your job.

 

Oh yeah, one other thing...STOP SWINGING AT THE LOW OUTSIDE SLIDER!!!

Great message. So very true. I usually am a guy that backs players over management in contract discussions, but Corey should just be happy he has another chance. If I could bet on this arby case, I would come out a rich man.

[lcbj68c]

I can't believe all this whining about Corey Hart and his salary. What do you people expect him to do? Go and sign a tender sheet for 750k and call it a day? He should get every nickel his agent thinks he can get from the system. What TLB is trying to say is the system and the Brewers didn't give a damn what kind of seasons him, JJ, Prince, etc were having a few years ago (06, 07) when they were puting up All-Star numbers and the Brewers were just renewing their contracts for 430K, etc. That's the system. I'd look back through the archives if I thought I'd find it, but I didn't see anyone vouching to give Corey or Prince more money then? It's ok for the "system" then, but now it's not?? Let's just let the "system" play out and worry about what Corey does or doesn't do on the field, but let's not try and pretend for one second that you'd wouldn't try to get an extra 600k out of your employer's system, when that same system didn't give a crap about your performance in the past.

[Invader3K]

The difference is that Corey Hart had a chance to sign a bigger deal and turned it down, unlike Ryan Braun.

[thebruce44]

I can't believe all this whining about Corey Hart and his salary. What do you people expect him to do? Go and sign a tender sheet for 750k and call it a day? He should get every nickel his agent thinks he can get from the system. What TLB is trying to say is the system and the Brewers didn't give a damn what kind of seasons him, JJ, Prince, etc were having a few years ago (06, 07) when they were puting up All-Star numbers and the Brewers were just renewing their contracts for 430K, etc. That's the system. I'd look back through the archives if I thought I'd find it, but I didn't see anyone vouching to give Corey or Prince more money then? It's ok for the "system" then, but now it's not?? Let's just let the "system" play out and worry about what Corey does or doesn't do on the field, but let's not try and pretend for one second that you'd wouldn't try to get an extra 600k out of your employer's system, when that same system didn't give a crap about your performance in the past.

There are reasons why the system is in place. Baseball couldn't function like the NBA or NFL where rookies are given exorbitant 4 or 5 year contracts. If a player comes up and looks special, many times it is mutually beneficial for the team and player to go ahead and sign a deal like Braun did. The player gets security and the team gets some savings down the line. Corey wanted to work the system in his favor and now it has blown up in his face.

 

Your assertion that we shouldn't "pretend that nobody would try to get an extra 600k out of our employer when that system didn't give a crap before" doesn't apply to Corey' situation at all.

 

And I will save you the trouble of looking back through the archives. You must have missed it, but many here (myself included) wanted to give Corey and Prince extra money to buy out some FA years. In terms of Corey I think we all know we dodged a bullet there.

[TooLiveBrew]

What TLB is trying to say is the system and the Brewers didn't give a damn what kind of seasons him, JJ, Prince, etc were having a few years ago (06, 07) when they were puting up All-Star numbers and the Brewers were just renewing their contracts for 430K, etc. That's the system. I'd look back through the archives if I thought I'd find it, but I didn't see anyone vouching to give Corey or Prince more money then? It's ok for the "system" then, but now it's not?? Let's just let the "system" play out and worry about what Corey does or doesn't do on the field, but let's not try and pretend for one second that you'd wouldn't try to get an extra 600k out of your employer's system, when that same system didn't give a crap about your performance in the past.

 

This is basically what I was getting at, yes.

 

 

So because he had a good 2007, he just gets a pass from now on?

 

That's absolutely not what I said. I said the fact that he put up an .892 OPS has created unrealistic expectations. He is absolutely worth roughly $4M-$5M unless he's actually "trending downward", but realistically, there isn't any way to know yet whether he's trending downward, or if he's merely had a couple of down seasons. His LD% last season was basically identical to his 2007 number. The rest of his swing data looks pretty similar aside from him just swinging less overall in 2009 (Hart & the team have addressed this, basically saying that he's not going to be asked anymore to take pitches for the sake of taking pitches like he was in '09). The only thing I can see that's been down is his HR/FB%, which iirc tends to fluctuate for all players. I could be wrong on that one, though. I hope someone can confirm that or refute that.

Nady appears to have put it together in 2008 (4.0 WAR), then was setback by injuries in 2009 and basically did not play. He isn't coming off of 2 underpreforming years where he just plain sucked.

One good season out of a 6-year career from Nady definitely means he's put it all together? A season in which he had a .337 BABIP, his BB & K rates really weren't much different from career norms? I think he's a pretty apt comparison. And why is Nady's injury history relevant, and Corey Hart's isn't? Who's to say that the appendix wasn't giving him problems he was just trying to gut his way through? After all, it was described as an emergency procedure -- why isn't it possible that he was dealing with pain for a decent chunk of the season? I don't pretend to know, but it just seems all too convenient to say that the appenix issue doesn't count.

 

 

Your assertion that we shouldn't "pretend that nobody would try to get an extra 600k out of our employer when that system didn't give a crap before" doesn't apply to Corey' situation at all.

 

How does it not apply? Because you're annoyed at Corey Hart for not being a perennial .900 OPS player, & he's looking to make as much money as he possibly can? Hart can easily lose his arbitration case, and I'm sure he's well aware of that. Maybe he feels like risking an additional ~$300K is worth it with a decent shot at an extra ~$750K. I mean, we're talking about nearly an extra million bucks there. Does he deserve it? I don't even think it's worth it for fans to worry about that. The extra money he may win will mean next to nothing to the Brewers, and could mean a whole heck of a lot to Hart & his family. If he wins his arbitration case, he's certainly not hamstringing the Brewers' payroll flexibility. And if he loses, well then I guess he felt that risk was worth $300K. I mean, some people are literally passing judgment on this guy over an amount that means zero to the Brewers' competitive chances in 2010 or beyond. It just makes no sense to me.

I'd like to say, on the record, that I really don't like or dislike Corey Hart. I just find the backlash & venomous distaste overwhelming.

[thebruce44]

How does it not apply? Because you're annoyed at Corey Hart for not being a perennial .900 OPS player, & he's looking to make as much money as he possibly can?

 

No, as I stated in my previous post it does not apply because that system was the Brewers and they did give a crap about Hart's performance when they offered him a contract extension.

 

The extra money he may win will mean next to nothing to the Brewers, and could mean a whole heck of a lot to Hart & his family. If he wins his arbitration case, he's certainly not hamstringing the Brewers' payroll flexibility. And if he loses, well then I guess he felt that risk was worth $300K. I mean, some people are literally passing judgment on this guy over an amount that means zero to the Brewers' competitive chances in 2010 or beyond. It just makes no sense to me.

 

While I doubt his family will be going hungry with the $4+ mil he is going to make either way, the idea that the extra money he may win means nothing to the Brewers is completely false. We don't know how far apart they are, maybe only 300k or 500k, but we had 6 other arby eligible players who felt just fine getting paid what their contemporaries around the league are. If they all tried to eek out that extra 3 or 4k, we wouldn't have Doug Davis on the team.

 

I too don't dislike Corey as a person. I know he has a family and he is probably a very nice guy. I am just saying that with the contract decisions he has made over the years and statements about the fans in relation to his performance, this type of backlash seems pretty reasonable to me.

[TooLiveBrew]

We don't know how far apart they are, maybe only 300k or 500k, but we had 6 other arby eligible players who felt just fine getting paid what their contemporaries around the league are.

 

I don't follow you on this statement. By agreeing to (assumedly) midpoint deals, the other players are getting paid what their contemporaries are? And Corey Hart wouldn't be at $4.8M? I'm sure there are plenty of corner outfielders worse than Hart that make at least $5M.

 

I agree that from an outsider's perspective, it seems odd that Hart wouldn't just settle with the Brewers at the midpoint. But who knows, maybe the Brewers weren't willing to meet at the midpoint. Maybe they feel their offer of ~$4.1M is more than fair, wouldn't really go any higher than $4.25M, & Corey or his representation felt slighted that the Brewers went to the midpoint with everyone else. Not saying that's a likely scenario, but we know it's untrue just as much as we know any of the other conjecture in this thread is untrue. Like I said, it's not that I don't find this situation odd & wish it would be settled at the midpoint so it's over, but I just don't understand why people are so quick to jump to conclusions that they really have no way of knowing.

[thebruce44]

I don't follow you on this statement. By agreeing to (assumedly)

midpoint deals, the other players are getting paid what their

contemporaries are? And Corey Hart wouldn't be at $4.8M? I'm sure there

are plenty of corner outfielders worse than Hart that make at least $5M.

 

Well Doug flat out said how they make their offers when talking about the Villy deal and why it was over the half way point. It is based on market value (similar player signings that season), with of course the understanding that you go through the standard jumps of 40/60/80. The fact that the Cubs gave Soriano a terrible contract or that there are other bad corner outfielders making more than $5 mil shouldn't effect Corey at all. You brought up Nady as what you thought was a good comparison. He just signed a 1 year 3.3 mil deal, but without an injury you figured a $4.5 mil deal. Since Hart is in his final year of arbitration, 80% of Nady's total would be $3.6 mil.

I agree that from an outsider's perspective, it seems odd that Hart

wouldn't just settle with the Brewers at the midpoint. But who knows,

maybe the Brewers weren't willing to meet at the midpoint. Maybe they

feel their offer of ~$4.1M is more than fair, wouldn't really go any

higher than $4.25M, & Corey or his representation felt slighted

that the Brewers went to the midpoint with everyone else.

 

You are right, this is all from an outsiders perspective and we are just speculating. But when Doug has never gone to an arby hearing as the Brewers GM, and has met virtually in the middle quickly with every player in recent memory except Villy who Doug said deserved more because of recent signings, I am inclined to think Hart is the one being difficult for the second year in a row. It is conjecture, but its also pretty logical and sound reasoning.

 

Anyway, maybe we have to agree to disagree. I am starting to think some on here just don't like the system that is in place and thats really for another thread. In my mind Corey thinks he is above that system while all his other teammates are following it. I think that is what is rubbing a lot of fans the wrong way and its pretty reasonable.

[monty57]

If he has a poor start to the season, I think there's a good chance he'll find himself on the bench, then cut and fighting for a job on a minor league contract somewhere next year.

 

I can't take any more of the overstatements regarding Hart. While he's not a top-flight MLB RF, the idea that a guy in his prime-aged seasons would be fighting for a job on a MiLB contract is just absurd. As fans we really, really need to step back from that ledge. It's just way too easy to overreact to player performance, which always has & always will vary quite a bit from season to season. 'DFA Rickie Weeks!' ... 'Cut Dave Bush!' ... 'Cut Corey Hart!' Let's just say I'm grateful that we have a GM that doesn't make these types of overreacting moves... So yeah, let's go ahead & just cut him if he starts the season slow.

Let me clarify what I was saying.

 

If he has a poor start to the season, I think there's a good chance he'll find himself on the bench

 

If Hart is the starting RF to start the season (which is likely), and he looks like he did at the end of 2008, it is very likely that some combination of Gerut/Edmonds would take significant PT away from Hart.

 

then cut

 

Macha's bench players get about 3-5 PAs/week, so if Gerut takes the starting job away from Corey, and Corey gets little PT this season, with bad numbers (not enough PAs to overcome the bad start), then it is pretty likely the Brewers would not offer him arby at season's end, as they would essentially be required to give him a big pay raise, even if he is horrible. Maybe I should have said "would not be offered arbitration in the next offseason" instead of "cut," but they basically mean the same thing.

 

fighting for a job on a minor league contract somewhere next year

 

This would make Corey a free agent. If his most recent year (2010) were something like 300 PAs, .650 OPS, and in his previous two seasons (2008, 2009) he was in the bottom third of all MLB RFs in offensive production (as measured by OPS), how many teams would be jumping over themselves to sign him? There would probably be a team that would take a flier on him, so I probably overstated things by saying "minor league contract," but I would have to think he'd be making far, far less than the $4.15MM he's likely to make this season.

 

I honestly care much less about what players make than most. I think Corey's being a bit foolish, as he's almost assuredly costing himself a lot of money, but my angst with Corey isn't contract related, it's performance related. His past performance leads me to think he should be soft-platooned with Gerut to start the season, but instead he's seemingly being handed the starting job. I hope Corey "finds it," but if he doesn't, I hope the Brewers do what's smart for the franschise, which, if the cards fall a certain way, may be to not offer Hart arby after this season, saving the team $5-7MM to use elsewhere. I'd rather this doesn't happen, as I'd rather see him play well and earn the pay raise, but if it makes sense for the franchise, I hope Melvin has the guts to do it.

[Thurston Fluff]

why isn't it possible that he was dealing with pain for a decent chunk of the season? I don't pretend to know, but it just seems all too convenient to say that the appenix issue doesn't count.

 

I once had a wrestler complain of a lack of strength for a while. Small things like not being able to do as many situps as he used to. It didn't hurt him at first then he felt a small pang for a while so we thought he pulled muscle. Then I got a call that he had an emergency appendectomy. So, yes, I do think it's possible it hampered him even before it hurt him.

 

I used to have more problems with it but now I don't care if any player tries to get what they can nor will I hold it agianst them. It's just the business side of it. I was happy to see Hart say he likes tohe city and understands the process can be brutal. It give me hope he will not hold hard feelings toward the city or the team if it does go to arby. That is especially important since I think Cory may have overplayed his hand and will lose the arby case. Seems like he's a lot more business savvy than his appearance would suggest.

[sheethead]

What do you people expect him to do? Go and sign a tender sheet for 750k and call it a day?

 

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anyone here insinuating Hart should do this. Hart should do whatever he wants, and if that means putting the entire matter into the hands of a greasy agent that's fine. He just shouldn't be surprised when a portion of the fan base holds it against him. Judging by his comments at On Deck, it appears he is fine with the fan backlash that is occurring. The bottom line is he needs to perform this year to get paid again, otherwise he is just another Gabe Gross making $750k and calling it a day. That can only mean good things for the Brewers (unless he feels he is just another Gabe Gross, that this is his last year to get a big payday, and is milking the system thinking he may just fade into MLB mediocrity).