What's up with Corey Hart? Latest: Hart wins arbitration hearing (post # 190)

[tigerbrew]

Then I assume you have to agree that management is greedy when a player does great things in his first season or two (or five) and management doesn't voluntarily agree to raise the player's salary to what the player would get for that production as a FA on the open market, rather than renewing him at the artificially depressed salary of a pre-arby player. So -- the Brewers are greedy given what they're paying, for example, Yovanni Gallardo, right?

I don't think the Brewers are greedy, to me the pre-arby structure is fair. The Brewers drafted these young prospects, invested sizable bonuses and decent salaries to sign them (especially the high picks), invested resources to develop these young prospects in the minors. If the young prospect develops into a quality major league player, it is only fair for the Brewers to reap some benefit for their investments in terms of pre-arby player salary.

[endaround]

So the Brewers used a system, the draft, that keeps down what the players are actually worth and then you argue that the pre-arby system is fair because of it?

[strawbossisevil]

An example of the Brewers "abusing the system", would be if they drafted a college Senor, and try to offer him a completely unfair compensation for his draft location because they know that his only other option is to play Independent ball the next year, likely dropping his draft ranking.

 

As far as I can tell, the Brewers have been more than generous with their draft picks. And have not been greedy pigs when approaching their draft prospects over whom they control a significant amount of leverage.

 

The point is, just because a system is in place, doesn´t mean that any abuse of the system is justified. I think it is entirely fair to point out where a player or an organization has acted greedy, even within the way the system currently is constructed.

[TooLiveBrew]

Teams just seem to get a pass since the greed on their part is hard-wired into the system (min. salary for a player's first three-ish seasons)

[endaround]

They are still draft picks. Its a system that forces players to only negotiate with one team. If there was no draft players would get paid more.

[Invader3K]

They may not be making a ton in salary their first three seasons (or whatever it works out to), but many of these guys get pretty nice signing bonuses out of the draft. How much money has Jeremy Jeffress gotten in exchange for being suspended twice? I'm not trying to pick on him specifically, but that is just one example.

 

And I also go back to how other teams have reportedly resented the Brewers for "overpaying" pre-arby players. Let's also keep in mind that other guys besides Braun have been apparently offered very large contracts to buy out their arbitration and early FA years. It's their own fault if they're now jealous or resentful of the situation. They had their chance and turned it down.

[rluzinski]

The Brewers pay their pre-arby guys on a scale that is reportedly more generous than what other teams use, so I'm not sure there is a valid complaint there.

 

I'm not complaining; I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation, as I see it.

 

In 2007, Prince Fielder had an 1.031 OPS and 50 HRs. Fangraphs estimated the free agent value of his 2007 season at almost $21 mil. We can all agree that his free agent worth was in the tens of millions. Prince was paid $670,000 in 2008 by the Brewers (about $300,000 over the league minimum). When Prince complained about the system, he was strongly criticized by many of the Brewer fans. It didn't matter that Prince was getting paid perhaps 30 times less than what his 2007 performance was worth. That's how the system works so Prince should just shut up and play.

 

In 2010, the system allowed Hart to make $4.8 mil in arbitration. Fans are pissed off because Hart used the system to maximize his earnings, despite him having a poor year in 2009. It didn't matter that Hart was just following the rules. A player should be paid proportional to his recent performance, so Hart should have just shut up, taken the Brewer's initial offer and played.

 

The argument seems to boil down to:

 

1. Certain factors make it (always?) justifiable when the major league system pays a pre free agent player a fraction of his real value. If that player is critical of the system for paying him a fraction of his real value, he has earned the fans' scorn.

 

2. It's never justifiable when the major league system allows a pre free agent player to get a raise after a bad season or seasons. And if that player is put into a position where the system may allow him to get even a higher raise, it would be immoral for him to take advantage of it. He should simply accept whatever the team offers him.

 

If that's even 80% correct, there is probably little left to argue about.

[TooLiveBrew]

And I also go back to how other teams have reportedly resented the Brewers for "overpaying" pre-arby players.

 

Slightly ironic, then, that one factor that allowed Hart to win his case is the Mets overpaying Francoeur. I hadn't heard that about other organizations -- was there a specific story or instance?

[Invader3K]

rluz, people thought it was hypocritical of Prince to whine about getting paid $670,000 when he (and/or Scott Boras) reportedly turned down a $60 million contract offer. I don't blame some fans for criticizing him in that instance.

 

TLB, I remember Haudricourt talking about it in the past. I'm sorry I don't have a specific article or link off hand.

[sheethead]

In 2007, Prince Fielder had an 1.031 OPS and 50 HRs. Fangraphs estimated the free agent value of his 2007 season at almost $21 mil. We can all agree that his free agent worth was in the tens of millions.

 

The only fix I can come up with would be an unheard of "pay for play" type of compensation scale, where players are paid for how they actually play and not for what they are perceived or projected to do in the future. This obviously will never happen, so some players will be grossly overpaid while some will be underpaid at some given point in their careers.

 

Prince also received a nice sum of cash years before playing a single game with the Brewers.

[Invader3K]

Yes, and of course you have a player like David Riske who has made millions of dollars while barely pitching a single inning for the team. The team carries much more financial risk than the players, so I have a hard time feeling bad for guys who only make large amounts of money their first few years in the league for the chance to make insane guaranteed amounts of money later on.

[TooLiveBrew]

TLB, I remember Haudricourt talking about it in the past. I'm sorry I don't have a specific article or link off hand.

 

Oh don't worry about it... I was just curious

[monty57]

TLB, iirc, it was the A's complaining about what the Brewers gave Keith Ginter. I may be wrong, and there may be other cases, but for some reason that one came to mind.

 

rluz, I pretty much agree with your assessment. I think much of it psychologically is that in order for teams like the Brewers to have any chance of competing with the big money teams is for the system to favor the team over the player. If the system starts to sway back more in the players' favor, I think there's some fear that the Brewers hopes are gone. Also, some people (not just sports fans) get really upset when a person makes more money than they will ever hope to make in their lifetime. We see it in sports and other forms of entertainment, as well as in the corporate world. Americans in general like to root for the little guy and then rip them apart when they become successful.

 

Of course, there are other factors such as players the teams have to pay bonuses to who flame out and never play in the majors, and complementary minor league players that have no chance of making the bigs, but are paid simply to field a team so that the good minor leaguers have a team to play on. I guess that's why the union accepts making players "pay their dues" for their first few years before they get a chance to hit it big in free agency. A system like the NBA or NFL wouldn't work for baseball.

 

I'm trying to look at things in a relative fashion. Corey Hart is probably not grossly overpaid at $4.8MM (although it's more than I would've thought he would have received in year 2 of arby), but I think he will be overpaid in 2011 if offered arby. In my mind, he's not a horrible player, just below average for a MLB RF. Relative to other players, that means he'll still make seven figures unless he continues to regress. However, the Brewers will be locked into paying him more than he's probably worth if they offer him arby for 2011, so I hope they'll have options that are around Hart's talent level or better for less money, which is possible in players such as Cain and Gerut or even Gamel.

[AJAY]

I can't speak for others, but part of my own anger towards Corey Hart is based on several factors (many of which have existed long before any of us even heard of Corey Hart)

 

(1) Overall frustration with high player costs --- You spend years and years rebuilding and then you finally make the playoffs after what feels like a lifetime. Immediately after a very brief stint in the playoffs, CC Sabathia turns down the biggest contract offer in franchise history because apparently 100 million dollars it is still not enough. Sheets heads to free agency, and you are back to being under .500 so fast again. Then on top of that, the Yankees buy the World Series, cheapen the game, cheapen the meaning of a championship, and once again remind you that the game and the system are brutal for fans in smaller or mid-markets.

 

The rebuilding lasted forever, but the playoff stint and the tearing apart of the pitching staff happened so quickly. That alone leaves a very bitter taste, and it is all because the salaries are just way too expensive. You can't even enjoy success because it will all be stolen away from you due to your rising costs. You do nothing but stress all the time and worry about losing players. We are already feeling the angst of losing Fielder and the feeling really stinks.

 

I don't care that athletes make more money than teachers, firefighters, etc. My issue is that the costs are so high that fans can not even enjoy the sport anymore when most franchises can't afford what it takes to win championships and perenially contend. It's has just gotten so stupid and out of hand when 75 percent of the league can't really compete in reality. The overwhelming majority of the fans are just not having fun with this.

 

(2) Hating to waste money --- When you live in a small market, every dollar matters. Every time salaries go up, it has a more crippling effect for people like us, and it also makes the game harder and less fun because you are facing a harder uphill climb. I hate to see money being wasted on a player who has underperformed and has already gotten a raise offered to him anyway. When you feel like you just threw away 700,000 dollars to Corey Hart, it makes you mad because we are not a franchise that is in a position to write off that kind of money. That loss of money feels a lot heavier in a market like ours.

 

(3) My strong hatred towards the players union --- I spend my hard-earned dollars so that I can enjoy baseball with my friends and family. So what does the union do to thank me? They repeatedly go on strike to make sure that my favorite players leave to bigger markets. They make sure that my team has to perpetually be at a competitive disadvantage. They make sure that teams like the Yankees can continue to buy championships and cheapen the game. They make sure that we have to pay Corey Hart what our dumbest competitor pays similar players even though money is extremely tight. Every single thing they have ever done in their history has done nothing but cause nothing but misery and hardship for fans in markets like ours.

 

I am tired of hearing players make statements about how they need to "take care of their family". I am sorry, but I don't spend my hard-earned money because I am motivated to take care of the players families. I don't even know their families. The reason I spend my money on baseball is because I want some enjoyment and entertainment for myself and my loved ones. I want to have a good time, and I want to enjoy the experience. It is high time that players show some respect and understanding of this. Not one player has even once shown any ounce of sympathy for what fans go through. Not one small market player has stepped up and been critical of the competitive disadvantage. They just continue to act like sheep, speak the company line, and thumb their noses at us every time there is a labor negotiation. The union absolutely disgusts me.

 

Apparently the new union leader thinks these arbitration hearings are so important, that he is personally making an effort to attend each one in person. He could be working on finding ways to improve and grow the game, but instead his priorities are purely to grab every dollar without any regard to the harmful impact it has on fans like us. It makes me absolutely sick.

 

(4) The feeling that the current labor agreement is terrible and is being forced on us --- Yes, technically the owners did agree to the current system. But we all know that the current system isn't based on what is right or wrong. Instead, it is decided by who has the leverage when it comes to a threat of a strike. So if the system determines that Corey Hart should get paid more, I can't respect that because I don't respect the system and I don't respect how it was forced on owners and fans. We fans never had any representation at the labor meetings, and we never agreed to this garbage. So even though Corey Hart might have played by the rules, I can't accept it because the rules are a joke and the players created this mess.

 

So why am I angry with Corey Hart? It's because this arbitration case strikes at the very heart of what is so darn frustrating and upsetting about being a small-market fan. Rising costs and declining returns are a terrible combination and do nothing but harm small-market teams. Players always want to defend themselves and point to "the system" being what it is, but yet they never want to change the system even though it directly cheats the customers who pay their salaries in the first place.

 

I can't accept that.

[Invader3K]

Wow, I'm digging your passion on this, AJAY. You should write to Bud Selig with that. Not sure if he'd bother to read it, but you never know.

[TooLiveBrew]

I spend my hard-earned dollars so that I can enjoy baseball with my friends and family. So what does the union do to thank me? They repeatedly go on strike to make sure that my favorite players leave to bigger markets.

 

I don't think it's fair to categorize the MLBPA as striking at the drop of a hat. The last strike was 15 years ago, and frankly I think they were right to do so, given the business they're in.

 

 

I am sorry, but I don't spend my hard-earned money because I am motivated to take care of the players families. I don't even know their families. The reason I spend my money on baseball is because I want some enjoyment and entertainment for myself and my loved ones.

 

If you're bothered so much, stop spending your money on it -- it's really your only vote in the matter.

[And That]

It's has just gotten so stupid and out of hand when 75 percent of the league can't really compete in reality. The overwhelming majority of the fans are just not having fun with this.

I think that bolded statement is overwhelming hyperbole. If you have a study to the back up your point, I'd like to see it.

 

For my money, baseball is just about as popular and diverse as it ever has been. In the last decade, we've had 8 different World Series winners, and 14 of the last 20 World Series participants have been different teams... that's almost half of baseball that's been to the World Series in the last ten years. That's pretty phenomenal.

[NievesNoNO]

No, I don't think Hart deserved the raise. However, I think of the three major sports baseball has the best pay structure system. Yes, it needs some tweaking so that all players must come through the draft and some of the top drafted players have been getting substantial money, but it's no where near as bad as football or basketball.

 

Honestly, when I look at player salaries I treat them like fantasy or video game numbers. None of the numbers are realistic to me since I can't even comprehend having a 50K job a year so it really doesn't upset me with the money that's being made. It's more of a societal issue than a baseball issue. For my money I'd be hard pressed to get much more enjoyment per dollar than making a day of it at the ball park. Yes, it's tough being a small market fan, but that's just how it is.

 

Can't wait to get this season rolling!

[bucks2281]

It's has just gotten so stupid and out of hand when 75 percent of the league can't really compete in reality. The overwhelming majority of the fans are just not having fun with this.

 

I think your comment would be more accurate if you were talking about the NBA. And that's a league with a salary cap. For me, it's not much fun when I know in January that the Cavs and Lakers will be in the Finals. In MLB, everybody has a chance to compete -- the "poorer" teams just have a much smaller margin of error. I think your comment is most accurate when it applies to the Blue Jays, Orioles and Rays. It must have been beyond frustrating for Toronto fans to win 86 games in that division and not sniff the playoffs.

[Invader3K]

No, I don't think Hart deserved the raise. However, I think of the three major sports baseball has the best pay structure system. Yes, it needs some tweaking so that all players must come through the draft and some of the top drafted players have been getting substantial money, but it's no where near as bad as football or basketball.

At least football doesn't have ridiculous guaranteed contracts like baseball. I've never gotten the justification for a guy getting hurt and getting paid his full salary, or obviously grossly under-performing and still getting his full salary. It's just plain silly.

[endaround]

Because in almost every single job at that level of pay you have multi year guaranteed contracts. The weird thing is that the NFL doesn't and thats because the player's union has been lick-spittle group.

[rluzinski]

I've always thought it was odd that in the NFL, a contract is binding for the player but not the team. Either both sides should have to abide by the terms of the contract or it should just be an open ended employment. The terms of that employment can be renegotiated each year (I think midseason negotiation is impractical for professional athletes). No one is making MLB franchises offer up huge, multiyear deals, however. Teams do it when they think it's in their best interest to do it.

 

I didn't mean to hyjack this thread, though. My point was that the anger being directed towards Hart had more to do with fans' unhappiness with the system as a whole. Subsequent comments seem to support that theory.

[Invader3K]

For my money, baseball is just about as popular and diverse as it ever has been. In the last decade, we've had 8 different World Series winners, and 14 of the last 20 World Series participants have been different teams... that's almost half of baseball that's been to the World Series in the last ten years. That's pretty phenomenal.

Yes, but if you look at the teams that by and large make and WIN the World Series, it's been almost exclusively the big market teams in the last ten years. For every freak Marlins championship, there's 4-5 Yankees/Boston/LA/Chicago winners.

 

Go back to the '80s and look when we had teams like the Orioles, Royals, A's, and Reds not only making by WINNING the World Series. Does anyone see any scenario where such runs could occur realistically in the next ten years? I think not.

[sheethead]

I've always thought it was odd that in the NFL, a contract is binding for the player but not the team. Either both sides should have to abide by the terms of the contract or it should just be an open ended employment.

 

The NFL contracts are in fact binding for both parties. Its not like teams just tear up a contract and send a player packing. Its written into the contract that players can be cut or released.

 

If NFL contracts were all for guaranteed money, they would have to remove the salary cap. Then it would be similar to baseball, where wealthier teams that make a mistake with a signing can simply go out and sign more players, while the not-so-wealthy teams will be fielding prospects and scraps due to their limited resources. MLB is a microcosm of the widening gap between the haves and the have-nots in society, in my opinion.

 

On topic comment: I hope Corey Hart has a fabulous year, and attempts to diversify his music library.

[Ennder]

Teams that made the World Series in the past decade. Only one team has made it more than twice and 14 of 30 teams have made it. 53% of the teams did not make it this past decade.

 

NYY - 4

NYN - 1

PHI - 2

TB -1

BOS - 2

COL - 1

STL - 2

DET - 1

CHA - 1

HOU - 1

FLA - 1

LAA - 1

SFG - 1

ARI - 1

 

Teams that made a Super Bowl the past decade. Only one team has made it more than twice and 14 of 32 teams have made it. 56% of teams have not made it this past decade.

 

PIT - 2

ARI - 1

NYG -2

NE - 4

IND -1

CHI - 1

SEA -1

PHI - 1

CAR - 1

TB - 1

OAK - 1

STL - 2

BAL - 1

TEN - 1

 

This entire concept that Baseball is not competitive at all and only the big market teams have a shot has been debunked in so many ways now that I'm always surprised people still make the argument. The cap doesn't make things magically fair for every team, large market teams can pay their players less and small market teams still struggle to get free agents in the NFL. Baseball DOES still need some work especially as far as the Yankees are concerned but it isn't anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be. Baseball is always going to be harder to make the playoffs though because they play a real schedule and injuries don't play as big a role so any gap in talent becomes more apparent than in the NFL.