What's up with Corey Hart? Latest: Hart wins arbitration hearing (post # 190)

[rluzinski]

That analogy only works if your boss paid you 1/5 what you deserved for your first 3 years.

 

Or, after you graduated from college, you were drafted into a specific company (that could be anywhere in the county) that had exclusive rights to you for almost a decade. Basically, you can't make ANY comparison between being a professional baseball player in the major leagues and a standard profession. The problem is, people keep trying.

 

You guys want baseball players to get paid proportional to their recent production? Pick a new league because that's not how MLB works.

[strawbossisevil]

I can make the comparison if I like thank you very much, I don´t feel it has to be completely analogous in every respect to be worthy of consideration. I think Hart was a greedy pig for demanding more money when he was offered what was recognized by most was more than generous considering his production the previous year.

 

I wish him the best this season, but if he struggles you better believe I´ll be emptying my lungs of all oxygen bringing down the boos on him. If it means he doesn´t want to sign with us after his arbitration years, good riddance. I hope he enjoys his new home where he can go bank his hard unearned dollars.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think Hart was a greedy pig for demanding more money when he was offered what was recognized by most was more than generous considering his production the previous year.

 

I think he & his representation were very smart to recognize that they could well win an arbitration hearing. One thing the arbitration system does is get guys that payday they missed while posting very good production for league minimum. I really don't understand whose puppy Hart kicked.

[logan82]

Didn't you know? Direct TV and Corey Hart hate puppies.

[monty57]

I can make the comparison if I like thank you very much, I don´t feel it has to be completely analogous in every respect to be worthy of consideration. I think Hart was a greedy pig for demanding more money when he was offered what was recognized by most was more than generous considering his production the previous year.

 

I wish him the best this season, but if he struggles you better believe I´ll be emptying my lungs of all oxygen bringing down the boos on him. If it means he doesn´t want to sign with us after his arbitration years, good riddance. I hope he enjoys his new home where he can go bank his hard unearned dollars.

It's hard to call someone a "greedy pig" who's offer "was recognized by most" to be "more than generous" when the arbitration panel voted in his favor. Be upset with the system, which does pay the players far less than they're worth for the first few years of their tenure. Be upset with Melvin for offering him arby if he didn't think he was worth the money. Or, be upset with stupid, big market GMs whose overpaying drives up arby numbers, but Hart obviously wasn't offered too generous a contract if the arby panel voted in his favor.

 

I don't think he's going to be even an average RF this year, but I can't be mad at him for listening to his agent, who advised him that he felt he could win an arby hearing, which he did. As I've said previously, my feelings are that Hart will continue to be an average-at-best MLB RF (offensively and defensively). That has no bearing on whether he should attempt to play by the rules put in place by MLB to attempt to get paid as much as he can. Anyone, in any walk of life should try to do what's best for them and their family. Using your earlier analogy, that underperforming employee would be dumb to say "you know what, boss, what you're offering me is too much. I suck, so therefore I should take a paycut."

 

If you take your emotions of your feelings of Hart as a player out of the equation (which I'm trying to do myself), I hope you can see what I'm driving at. Hart won. Unbiased arbitors agreed in his favor. How can he be dumb or greedy for going to arbitration when he won?

[valpocrewsader]

How can he be dumb or greedy for going to arbitration when he won?

By that logic, an individual who spills hot coffee on themselves and rejects the restaurant's fair and generous $200,000 settlement offer to pusue and win a seven figure payday in court is someone we cannot call greedy. I don't think it's very wise to set a precedent that persons can't be labeled greedy as long as an arbitrator or court agrees with them. In fact, there's nothing that stops a court or arbitrator from rewarding greed, happens all the time.

 

I guess we'll each have our different takes on this. My opinion boils down to: player isn't very good, player got an offer for a generous and underserved raise and rejected it, player refused to do much negotiating, player expected (flawed) system to award an even bigger raise that is even more undeserved, player was proven right by silly comparisons of (flawed) system. Player is greedy.

[gregmag]

How can he be dumb or greedy for going to arbitration when he won?

By that logic, an individual who spills hot coffee on themselves and rejects the restaurant's fair and generous $200,000 settlement offer to pusue and win a seven figure payday in court is someone we cannot call greedy. I don't think it's very wise to set a precedent that persons can't be labeled greedy as long as an arbitrator or court agrees with them. In fact, there's nothing that stops a court or arbitrator from rewarding greed, happens all the time.

 

I guess we'll each have our different takes on this. My opinion boils down to: player isn't very good, player got an offer for a generous and underserved raise and rejected it, player refused to do much negotiating, player expected (flawed) system to award an even bigger raise that is even more undeserved, player was proven right by silly comparisons of (flawed) system. Player is greedy.

Then I assume you have to agree that management is greedy when a player does great things in his first season or two (or five) and management doesn't voluntarily agree to raise the player's salary to what the player would get for that production as a FA on the open market, rather than renewing him at the artificially depressed salary of a pre-arby player. So -- the Brewers are greedy given what they're paying, for example, Yovanni Gallardo, right?

 

I just don't see the benefit of tossing around moral epithets like "greedy" when nobody who participates in the system ever acts based on moral considerations. The system is set up to produce exactly this sort of result in this sort of case. Teams don't renegotiate contracts when a player exceeds expectations, and players don't turn down money made available by a system the owners agreed to, whether the player in question had a good year or not. Are professional athletes overpaid? IMHO, absolutely, and grossly; and also, IMHO, owners of sports franchises don't deserve to be as wealthy as they are. But Corey Hart didn't invent the system -- he's simply extracting value from the Brewers under the rules of the game, just like the Brewers are extracting value from Gallardo.

 

[monty57]

As I said earlier... if you don't like the system, argue for change in the system. I can't blame a player for listening to his agent who correctly felt that he could win the case.

 

Using your court system analogy: If you are in a bad car crash and the insurance company says they'll give you $200,000, but your attorney says he is certain you can win a case and get over $1,000,000, what are you going to do? Are you greedy if you listen to your attorney, or are you simply believing that the person you hired to help you make these type of decisions knows what he is talking about?

 

I'm with you in the belief that Hart is a below average MLB RF. I also agree that the MLB system isn't perfect, but it actually is put in place for the benefit of the teams, not the players. There should be a more level playing field for small & mid-market teams, but in the grand scheme of things that has very little to do with Corey Hart. The end result of this is that the Brewers have shown that they are willing to go to arbitration, Hart gets additional money this year, and I believe he won't be a Brewer next year because this decision, along with the arbitration system's method of guaranteeing pay raises for arby-eligible players, means that Hart would have to be significantly over-paid by the Brewers next year if they offer arby.

 

I don't dislike Hart, and any "bad feelings" I have for him (as shown in earlier posts in this thread) are a result of his poor play since late 2008, not because the system in place for him means that he'll get paid more than people in most walks of life. The Brewers are in a situation that Melvin felt that offering Hart arbitration was the best option for this season, knowing that he'd be paid over $4MM whether the Brewers won or lost. Lorenzo Cain getting hurt and Brendan Katin refusing to take a walk probably helped him make this decision. I think the biggest negative effect this will have for the 2010 Brewers will be if they decide to play him every day no matter what because of his contract, rather than playing the player who gives them the best chance of winning, which may well be Jody Gerut or even Jim Edmonds.

[RyDogg66]

By that logic, an individual who spills hot coffee on themselves and rejects the restaurant's fair and generous $200,000 settlement offer to pusue and win a seven figure payday in court is someone we cannot call greedy.

There hasnt been a situation on Earth where a restaurant has offered 200k for someone spilling coffee on themselves. If you are referring to the infamous MacDonalds case, the woman in question only asked for compensatory damages for the skin grafts she needed on her lap from the hot coffee that McDonlads was warned was too hot and unsafe previously. It wasnt until they went to trial - for those medical bills - that the jury was so disgusted at McDonalds for not heeding warnings about the fact that their coffee was 20 degrees hotter than what was safe for consumers and basically telling this woman to go pound sand that the jury awarded punitive damages to her as well as her medical bills. She never rejected anything and even in your hypothetical, by rejecting the 200k, she would have risked losing everything, Hart was guaranteed a raise even if he lost

I guess we'll each have our different takes on this. My opinion boils

down to: player isn't very good, player got an offer for a generous and

underserved raise and rejected it, player refused to do much

negotiating, player expected (flawed) system to award an even bigger

raise that is even more undeserved, player was proven right by silly

comparisons of (flawed) system. Player is greedy.

I wouldnt call Hart's raise undeserved. He is decent, 20/20 talent isnt readily available off the shelf and a player who is arguably worse than he is - Jeff Francouer - got 5 million. If there is any problem with the arbitration system, it is that besides a player getting his feelings hurt, there really isnt much downside. I cant call Hart greedy. I can call him average, but even an average major league right fielder can get 7 million on the open market.

[brewcrew7]

By that logic, an individual who spills hot coffee on themselves and rejects the restaurant's fair and generous $200,000 settlement offer to pusue and win a seven figure payday in court is someone we cannot call greedy.

There hasnt been a situation on Earth where a restaurant has offered 200k for someone spilling coffee on themselves. If you are referring to the infamous MacDonalds case, the woman in question only asked for compensatory damages for the skin grafts she needed on her lap from the hot coffee that McDonlads was warned was too hot and unsafe previously. It wasnt until they went to trial - for those medical bills - that the jury was so disgusted at McDonalds for not heeding warnings about the fact that their coffee was 20 degrees hotter than what was safe for consumers and basically telling this woman to go pound sand that the jury awarded punitive damages to her as well as her medical bills. She never rejected anything and even in your hypothetical, by rejecting the 200k, she would have risked losing everything, Hart was guaranteed a raise even if he lost

I guess we'll each have our different takes on this. My opinion boils down to: player isn't very good, player got an offer for a generous and underserved raise and rejected it, player refused to do much negotiating, player expected (flawed) system to award an even bigger raise that is even more undeserved, player was proven right by silly comparisons of (flawed) system. Player is greedy.

I wouldnt call Hart's raise undeserved. He is decent, 20/20 talent isnt readily available off the shelf and a player who is arguably worse than he is - Jeff Francouer - got 5 million. If there is any problem with the arbitration system, it is that besides a player getting his feelings hurt, there really isnt much downside. I cant call Hart greedy. I can call him average, but even an average major league right fielder can get 7 million on the open market.

I didn't want to get into this argument but it is completely out of hand. First to label Hart a below average right fielder is wrong. Take a look around the league and see what is out there. In the NL maybe you are looking at Pence, Upton, Hawpe, Werth, Ethier. In the AL you have Markakis, Ichiro, Dye, Abreu. Hart was in the class of some of these guys prior to having a down year that included an uncommon injury. To say he is below average because of this is just wrong.

 

Second, this argument should be over just for the fact the way baseball is setup. Players play for well below what they are worth for their beginning years. The explanation used before should have settled this argument but apparently some people are really upset about this and will not let it go. Fans get mad when a player asks for money during their current contract but when they try to get more once they are open for arby is wrong as well? Is it then also wrong when they try to get the most in free agency and might not accept a solid offer from their current team? Because fans get mad at guys for that as well. But fans also get mad at management when they don't offer enough money to keep guys Or they sell off a player because he is set to make more money the following year.

 

It seems to me that some just like to complain about players or management depending on which way the situation is going. Is Prince going to be a bad guy when Boras begins shopping him around the league for the most money possible and he snubs milwaukee? We are talking about Hart here, and at some point last year this negative vibe has begun with him, and we are talking about a minor raise in the grand scheme of things. Hart has reached his time of arbitration and has an all star appearance next to his name now, and it is one that the people of milwaukee gave him by voting him in. Now they have completely turned on him due to his one bad year and they is just straight hate. I don't get it just always come back to how people feel about a player in good times and in bad. People would have fought to the death about JJ and he had a completely ridiculous year last year.

 

As you can tell I am dumbfounded about the conversation that is taking place here and the people that are bashing him cannot be brewer fans because he has never done anything to piss anyone off and is a great guy. And he is also not a butcher in right like some would like to describe. Again look around the league and look at what is playing right field. I am completely lost as what else to say. My mind is spinning and can't understand at what some are looking at with this talk. Having the appendectomy was his fault and he is now a terrible person becasue of it. And no player on the brewers besides him had any bad stretches last year? Everyone has bad times. And that includes Prince and Braun. But that is always overlooked because of all the good they do. Sorry, everyone cannot be elite and every team has average players on their team.

 

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

As you can tell I am dumbfounded about the conversation that is taking place here and the people that are bashing him cannot be brewer fans

 

Sigh....

 

You've been warned in other places here in the last few days about stuff like this, please accept this as a final warning.

[brewcrew7]

As you can tell I am dumbfounded about the conversation that is taking place here and the people that are bashing him cannot be brewer fans

 

Sigh....

 

You've been warned in other places here in the last few days about stuff like this, please accept this as a final warning.

By me being dumbfounded and saying that the people who say these things about Hart must be fans of another team? What is wrong with that? I can't disagree with anyone?

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

By me being dumbfounded and saying that the people who say these things about Hart must be fans of another team? What is wrong with that? I can't disagree with anyone?

 

You can disagree with whomever you'd like. But you can't be condescending while you do it.

[brewcrew7]

By me being dumbfounded and saying that the people who say these things about Hart must be fans of another team? What is wrong with that? I can't disagree with anyone?

 

You can disagree with whomever you'd like. But you can't be condescending while you do it.

Condescending to who? I didn't direct a comment towards anyone. Condescending is when you direct a comment towards someone. I said that I couldn't understand the hate for Hart and that they must be fans of another team. There are comments like that all over the forum. I honestly don't know what the problem is here.

 

 

[monty57]

I didn't want to get into this argument but it is completely out of hand. First to label Hart a below average right fielder is wrong. Take a look around the league and see what is out there. In the NL maybe you are looking at Pence, Upton, Hawpe, Werth, Ethier. In the AL you have Markakis, Ichiro, Dye, Abreu. Hart was in the class of some of these guys prior to having a down year that included an uncommon injury. To say he is below average because of this is just wrong.

 

In 2009, Corey's .753 OPS was 20th out of 26 MLB RFs with 400+ plate appearances.

In 2008, his .759 OPS was 16th of 23.

He had a great season in 2007 with an .892 OPS and had a .796 OPS in limited playing time in 2006.

 

Since his one big season, he has been below average (the 50% mark). In fact, he's pretty much been in the bottom third.

 

Now, if you're talking about defense, I'd say he's about average, as his good speed make up for his not always getting a good jump on the ball. I don't really have a problem with him defensively as a RF, especially since he played 1B most of his life and wasn't moved to OF until the low minors, so there's reason to believe that he could continue to improve defensively.

 

Overall, I'd dub him a below average MLB RF. I agree that all teams have average-ish players, and I'm fine with Hart on the Brewers. I think he'll be overpaid next year (his final arby year), so I hope some of the minor league OFs are ready to play in the majors in 2011. I also think that Gerut at least as likely as Hart to regain former glory if given the playing time.

[1992casey]

arbitration is supposed to keep players at below full market value in order to benefit the teams who drafted said player.

 

Actually, arbitration exists to prevent holdouts rather than control costs.

[rluzinski]

Why isn't there a 30 page thread every time the greedy Brewers take advantage of the system and pay a valuable pre-arby player league minimum? The obvious answer is, of course, it's OK when the system benefits the team because that is who the fans are ultimately rooting for.

[Invader3K]

The Brewers pay their pre-arby guys on a scale that is reportedly more generous than what other teams use, so I'm not sure there is a valid complaint there.

[PeaveyFury]

I didn't direct a comment towards anyone. Condescending is when you direct a comment towards someone

 

While we certainly appreciate your attempt to tell us how to interpret our own rules, your guideline isn't how it works here. A person can be condescending in general, as you were there. If it was directed at a specific person, it could have been either condescending, a personal attack, or both.

 

Any further need for clarification should probably be taken to private messages.

[AJAY]

Did anyone read Adam McCalvy's blog? Corey Hart was quoted as saying "You feel kind of bad because it's hard for the fans to understand this process".

 

I really wish Corey Hart would not even dare to go down this road. I realize that not every fan is an expert in how arbitration works. But some of us have been following baseball economics and labor issues much longer than Corey Hart has been alive. I hope he doesn't think the backlash and anger is due to a lack of knowledge and understanding. I just can not tolerate that line of thinking on his part.

 

I want Corey Hart to understand that all the other arbitration eligible players on this team settled very quickly and did not try to rob the organization of every penny the way he did. Those other players also could have used "the system" the way he did, but they instead handled themselves more amicably with management. Not only that, but those other arbitration eligible players actually performed their jobs way better and probably had more of a right to fight for a bigger raise than Hart did. Still they chose to settle fairly rather than go for an all out war.

 

To me, this is all about greed and character and not "the system" being what it is.

[logan82]

I want Corey Hart to understand that all the other arbitration eligible players on this team settled very quickly and did not try to rob the organization of every penny the way he did.

 

All the other players were offered a contract somewhere in the middle. Hart was apparently never offered in the middle.

[strawbossisevil]

All the other players were offered a contract somewhere in the middle. Hart was apparently never offered in the middle.

That isn´t what I heard. I heard on numerous occasions that the Brewers tried to settle. It sounds like they gave him a deadline on their top offer, and when he passed the deadline, they never offered that again.

 

Even reports from the day of arbitration included information that the Brewers offered him something in the middle but he passed.

 

I think what AJAY said hits the nail on the head, I have far more respect for those who did well last season and yet chose to make a deal in the middle with the Brewers.

[logan82]

Yes they did give him many offers to settle. Not in the middle though.

 

The midpoint of the figures was $4.475 million, which the Brewers thought was high and didn't offer to Hart in negotiations.

[TheCrew07]

Shouldn't players have to play their way into big money instead of getting it up front? I think that's one of the bigger problems with the NFL draft... a Ryan Leaf type player can break the bank and never amount to anything, while players drafted lower who play 5-6 years may never make as much. I don't have any problem with players starting out at league minimum and having to play their way into more money at all, isn't that what most of us have done out in the world? The only change I would make from a Brewer standpoint is to do more Braun type deals for impact talent as I've said numerous times. The theory is actually fairly sound, it's just the practical application that sucks in this case.

 

I think the way Arby is calculated certainly doesn't favor the teams, because all it takes is 1 really horrid overpay from a GM to set the market too high and it screws over everyone else.

[RockCoCougars]

I guess that I don't get all the uproar about this. If this system was in place in every workplace, I highly doubt that most on this board would not attempt to utilize it to maximize their salary if it seemed at all possible. If you would not you are a better person than I. I'm not sure if people think that he should just sit back and happily take whatever the Brewers offer, because he's 'sucked since he was in the all-star game'. Using that logic, Suppan should be cutting Attanasio a check for about $30 million.

 

To put this more into perspective, Hart will be making only $300,000 more than David Riske next season. I really don't think that $4.8 million is that out of line for a guy that put up back to back 20/20 seasons. Hart was starting to hit a little bit last season too just before he came down with his appendix issue, so it's not inconceivable that he may have came very close to 20/20 again. I'm not the biggest Hart fan, but it seems that he has supplanted Weeks as the whipping boy du jour of the fans. I think that vitriol is better reserved for guys like Suppan and Riske, but that's me.