What's up with Corey Hart? Latest: Hart wins arbitration hearing (post # 190)

[TooLiveBrew]

Awesome Corey. You are now only the second Brewer I love to hate. If only you could be one tenth the player Gary Sheffield was. What a bright boy.

Seems funny to question his intelligence when he won the case

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I can't blame Hart or his agent. They played their hand and won within the rules. So be it. It is frustrating for most fans, myself included, to see a guy who has played so poorly over the last season and a half get rewarded. I hope he earns it. Reality is if he doesn't, he's going to hear about it big time.

 

The question for the Brewers is if he's worth it? He seems replaceable to me, probably at a lower price. It's not a long term Suppan disaster, but they could probably do nearly as well for far less. I hope he plays well, but I'm skeptical. My guess is he ends the season splitting time, getting booed and is playing somewhere else in 2011. Hope I'm wrong.

[thebruce44]

I don’t understand how you could think Willingham is a better hitter than Hart?

 

Over the last three seasons Hart’s batting average is higher and he has had more RBIs and Runs than Willingham. Willingham has a few more homers, but he has also stuck out more times than Hart. Hart also destroys Willingham in stolen bases and sacrifice bunts.

 

It seems to me, based on the important statistics, that Hart is clearly a better hitter.

 

I am assuming this is sarcasm, no?

[crewcrazy]

Not sure why this is a surprise when you compare Hart's numbers to Francoeur. Hart is still underpaid compared to Francoeur--he could have asked for even more money.

While this is true, I would say the most frustrating thing about it is the fact that Omar Minaya gave Frenchy $5 million after he managed to put together a good half-season with the Mets (despite a handful of subpar and downright horrible seasons after his rookie year).

 

Of course, the system doesn't protect teams from the stupidity of other teams. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[RockCoCougars]

I can't blame the guy for trying to squeeze every cent he can out of the Brewers. I'm sure that he and his agent are regretting the decision to shoot the Crew down on the long term offer. They probably left $20 million at the least on the table. Hart has kind of become the Jody Reed of the new century. That said, Hart is not as bad as many here make him out to be. Outside of drawing walks, he's about the same guy at the plate as Cameron was (some power, strikes out at terrible pitches, streaky- disappearing for weeks on end, etc. For whatever reason, Cam is loved by many and Hart is terrible. One of the problems is that Hart was way overhyped as a prospect. He's probably slightly above average, but never was and probably never will be star caliber.

[strawbossisevil]

For whatever reason, Cam is loved by many and Hart is terrible.

The reason Cam was loved is because he is/was one of the best defensive players in the MLB. Hart is a below average fielder.

 

So, Cam put up equal numbers at a position higher up the defensive spectrum while playing elite defense.

 

There really is no comparing the two.

 

To put it another way:

 

Cameron:

Offense: Above average for CF

Defense: Elite for CF

 

Hart:

Offense: Below average for RF

Defense: Below average for RF

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Corey Hart at $4.8 or Mike Cameron at $7.25...no brainer IMO...I'd take Cam in a heartbeat.

[Baldkin]

Hart + Hawkins or Cameron?

 

I think I'd rather have Cam.

[RockCoCougars]

There really is no comparing the two.

You are right. Cameron made about 3 times as much money as Hart last year. With all his warts, I'd rather have Hart than Cameron at this point- even if they were making the same amount of money. Hart is 10 years younger, and there is the (albeit remote) possibility that he could improve. Best case, Cameron will maintain, but he will most likely start to decline at his age. Gomez will replace his 'elite' defense just fine if you ask me and likely the .250 career average as well. Hart hasn't been very good, but I don't think that the 4.7 million is really out of line for what he has done. I just think that people have had too high of expectations of him from the start.

[Invader3K]

Baldkin]Hart + Hawkins or Cameron?

 

I think I'd rather have Cam.

Not to get too sidetracked, but I don't get why so many have dumped on the Hawkins signing. I think he is going to be a nice asset to have around this season.

[Ennder]

I am assuming this is sarcasm, no?

 

Considering who he was quoting I'd feel safe in this assumption.

 

To be fair Willingham has had pretty chronic injury problems and is a downright bad defensive player. Hart has had a one non-injury DL trip and would probably be able to make a case for being average defensively(though I think he is below average). I think Willingham is a better player but I can see where they could get by using his numbers in the comparison.

[Baldkin]

Hart + Hawkins or Cameron?

 

I think I'd rather have Cam.

Not to get too sidetracked, but I don't get why so many have dumped on the Hawkins signing. I think he is going to be a nice asset to have around this season.

I agree that he'll be a good signing. I just think that with the logjam in the starting rotation & bullpen that he's an asset that the Brewers are going to end up not really needing.

[bigredrobbo]

I may be in the minority, in that I'm going to stick up for Corey. He played the game by the rules that exist, he didn't try to find loopholes or "cheat" the system. The "what have you done for me lately" schtick that pervades sports fans gets really old sometimes, and I guarantee many deriding Hart for this episode were the same ones championing his promotion from the minors only a couple years ago.

 

For the record, I firmly believe Hart's stats in 2010 will be at least equal to, if not better, than Cameron's in Boston.

[thebruce44]

For the record, I firmly believe Hart's stats in 2010 will be at least equal to, if not better, than Cameron's in Boston.

Offensively, its very possible.

[Thurston Fluff]

If you are in the minority so am I. Hart simply went by the rules of the game. He took a chance that his idea of his worth was more in accord with the sytem than the team's was. Turns out he was right. I also think he was better than he is being given credit for by the average fan. Seems like fans today have a need to say a player is either great or terrible. With no room in between those two extremes. I also think many times that assessment is based on how they thought the player should play vs how they actually played.

[rluzinski]

It's OK for players to go by the rules only when they are getting paid league minimum and are worth far more to their team. In that scenario, you'll never hear a fan complain that a player isn't properly compensated for his production. And that player better not complain that the system is underpaying him or he'll be criticized for it.

 

Basically, fans are not being objective. It's understandable, since the whole point of sports is to be emotionally irrational but there is no sense in trying to justify it, rationally. I think part of what's pissing some people off is that they said Hart was stupid for doing something that ultimately made him $700,000. I thought he was stupid too but he was willing to take the risk, so good for him.

[strawbossisevil]

No, I think the biggest thing we recognize about the situation is that arbitration is supposed to keep players at below full market value in order to benefit the teams who drafted said player. For example, this being Hart's second arbitration year, he is supposed to be getting 60% of what he would get on the open market. That would place his market value at 8 million per year (based off the arby he was rewarded).

 

There is no way that Hart has that market value. In fact, if he were to be placed on the free agent market, I doubt he makes what the arbitration committee just gave him.

 

By players, like Hart, demanding far more that what their true market value is, they are hurting the small markets in the long term that depend on the arbitration process to keep the player's salaries below market value.

 

If players, like Hart, continue to push the salary envelopes as he did this year, it'll be much more difficult to persuade players like Ryan Braun to sign below market long term contracts that go through their arby years, especially if said players know they can already make market value (or more) by their second Arby year, and quite likely an above market value contract in their final Arby year.

[trwi7]

and is a downright bad defensive player.

Willingham's career UZR/150 is -5.3, Hart's is -1.5.

[endaround]

No, I think the biggest thing we recognize about the situation is that arbitration is supposed to keep players at below full market value in order to benefit the teams who drafted said player. For example, this being Hart's second arbitration year, he is supposed to be getting 60% of what he would get on the open market. That would place his market value at 8 million per year (based off the arby he was rewarded).

 

There is no way that Hart has that market value. In fact, if he were to be placed on the free agent market, I doubt he makes what the arbitration committee just gave him.

 

By players, like Hart, demanding far more that what their true market value is, they are hurting the small markets in the long term that depend on the arbitration process to keep the player's salaries below market value.

 

If players, like Hart, continue to push the salary envelopes as he did this year, it'll be much more difficult to persuade players like Ryan Braun to sign below market long term contracts that go through their arby years, especially if said players know they can already make market value (or more) by their second Arby year, and quite likely an above market value contract in their final Arby year.

If Hart was a free agent going into 2009 he would easily have gotten 3 years/24 million. Yes the market has gone down and arby is slow to adjust, but its slow in both directions.

[strawbossisevil]

Right, before last season he would have potentially gotten that. Last season was arguably his worst since becoming a fulltime player, and so that should have some effect on the salary he makes in arbitration. Even the number the Brewers offered was the equivalent of ~7 million per year. I think he would have been hard pressed to find that type of deal this offseason.

 

There is no way he should be given a deal that considers him as valuable as Mike Cameron. He isn't even close to the same player.

 

I think this is a case of you overvaluing one of our players, end. Fangraphs back it up that he would be no where near the value of an 8 million per year salary.

[endaround]

$8m is about what a 2 win player gets. CHONE projects Hart to be worth 1.9 wins in 128 games. Do I think Hart had a strong case based on his value? No but then its based not on that but the fact the Mets gave Francouer $5m

[rluzinski]

He's supposed to get around 60% of what comparable players have gotten over the last few (2-3?) years. So it's not just about this off season. Furthermore, I'm sure the system overvalues things like RBIs, runs and steals. Guys like Hart might be overvalued in a system like that. Other players are undervalued. I don't know what they use to measure defense but maybe they see a fast player and think Hart is an above average in RF. The slow plodders with sure hands and good instincts might be undervalued. And in the end, it's not like Hart is really worth $1 mil and intead he got $4.8mil. The brewers offered him, what, $4.4 mil or something like that?

 

To hold it against Hart for trying to maximize his earnings... I just find that unbelievably hypocritical. Sports fans have all these other rules for professional sports players that don't apply to the rest of the population. Hart and every player are going to continue to make as much as they can. Why the hell wouldn't they!?

[strawbossisevil]

Let's say you worked at a business where you sold paper, where your salary is decided year to year.

 

Now let's say you had a real bad year at your job, but despite that your boss offers you what most consider to be more than fair of an offer (despite your poor work). With you knowing full well how poorly you did at your job, would you think it is right for you to demand more?

 

That's essentially how I view the situation. He knows full well after how poorly he performed last season that the offer the Brewers were making was more than fair (the consensus with most people was that the Brewers were being more than generous, especially considering they did go over their arbitration number at least to a certain extent in negotiations), but yet despite that he demanded more.

 

That costs us, the fans, as more of the money we pay for tickets goes into his coffers, somewhat undeservedly. Add to the fact that it could mean having less money to upgrade at the deadline, and I think the resentment is at least somewhat understandable.

[brewcrew7]

Hart + Hawkins or Cameron?

 

I think I'd rather have Cam.

 

Hart + Hawkins without question. Solid bullpen arm and a solid RF. Cameron is getting up there in years and as we saw he goes through some very tough times as well. But he is a player that is liked so he doesn't get the same heat for some reason. Hart as least had surgery. Cam was flat out bad for stretches the last couple years.

[logan82]

Last season was arguably his worst since becoming a fulltime player

 

I would have argued that he improved in 2009 over his 2008 season.

 

Now let's say you had a real bad year at your job, but despite that your boss offers you what most consider to be more than fair of an offer (despite your poor work). With you knowing full well how poorly you did at your job, would you think it is right for you to demand more?

 

That analogy only works if your boss paid you 1/5 what you deserved for your first 3 years.