Can someone help me out on Carlos Gomez?

[UeckerAddict]

I don't want to rag on our plans for Carlos Gomez if I am truly missing something. I've suggested we could really use another CF (Edmonds, for instance) but people keep telling me that it is Gomez' spot and there's no need for any other competitor for the CF position. What am I not seeing with Gomez that everyone else is? His OBP has been horrible and even if that is chalked up to youth or a small sample, what sign/proof is there that he can handle the starting CF job? He has not power and has not hit for average. True, he can steal bases, but Macha does not especially go after the steals. Do we have a backup plan? Gerut? That's not a real uplifting thought for me.

 

As I said, I'm not on here just to diatribe, but am really looking for some insight into what I am missing with this full-fledged confidence in Gomez.

[logan82]

Really good defense. That is the value of Gomez. He is young so there is hope that he will improve his hitting, but most of his value is his defense.

[Invader3K]

Lots of speed and great defense (possibly better than Cameron will be this season). He has lots of potential and is only 23. He was hyped and the center piece of the Johan Santana trade for a reason.

[Ennder]

Cameron is a very good defensive CF, Gomez is an elite defensive CF. Gomez improved offensively in many areas last year even if it doesn't show up in slash stats. He could range somewhere from a little below average to well above average, no real way to know until he plays the season.

[jwaltz]

You can make a very strong case for Gomez being the best defensive center fielder on the planet. He's that good defensively. When you see him in person he makes very difficult plays look routine and easy. With him out there we have the best defensive shortstop and the best defensive center fielder. He's got as much untapped potential as anybody. If he meets half of his potential he'll be a star.

 

Going to Twins games the past few years I saw Gomez in the same outfield with Span. Those two seemed to have the entire outfield covered. The third outfielder didn't seem to have much to do. That was fun to watch.

[logan82]

The guy they have playing CF over in Seattle is a pretty good CF.

 

Escobar has to improve to be the best defensive SS in baseball. He has the talent, but he isn't there yet. Our defense improved minimally if at all with the addition of Gomez and Escobar. Hardy and Cameron were very good defensively. With the SS position, Hardy was very good, Escobar shouldn't be counted on for being that good yet.

[rluzinski]

Great defense. Terrible offense. If you like ball-in-play outs, you'll like him more than you probably should.

[RobDeer 45]

Cameron was a good defensive player but didn't make too many plays that made your jaw drop. Gomez will. Plus the range he has out there will make you think he's just making routine plays, when infact they are very tough plays. I think this is really good for us because I'd say Braun and Hart have average range.

[clancyphile]

Hart had some playing time in center field, too. I'd probably say his range is above average as well.

[JohnBriggs12]

In 2008, Gomez hit .258, stole 33 bases, scored 79 runs and knocked in 59. Forget his OBP, if he can duplicate those numbers, he'll be an offensive contributor. The Brewers see Gomez and think Michael Bourn with a little more power potential. Bourn took a big step forward offensively and won a gold glove in CF making spectacular plays in CF.

 

As for backups, forget guys like Edmonds. He hasn't played in 2 years and his range was gone then. The Brewers have guys they can turn to if Gomez falls flat. Gerut, Oeltjen and even Logan Schafer are available and could factor in at some point if needed.

[CheezWizHed]

And beyond all of that. Beyond potential, great defense, etc... (which I do agree with).

 

He looks like the Brewers plan for CF. They traded away our biggest trading chip (this year) to acquire him. Their biggest problem this offseason was pitching and we knew we needed spend $$ there. Otherwise, we would've just kept Cameron.

 

So I think most people just figure the Brewer's plan is Gomez in CF with Gerut as backup. Many people have questioned whether the front office has a plan or not. If they went and acquired Edmonds, it would really look questionable.

 

So you may agree or disagree that Gomez is a good answer at CF. But he looks like the Brewer's answer.

[thebruce44]

Escobar has to improve to be the best defensive SS in baseball. He has the talent, but he isn't there yet. Our defense improved minimally if at all with the addition of Gomez and Escobar. Hardy and Cameron were very good defensively. With the SS position, Hardy was very good, Escobar shouldn't be counted on for being that good yet.

It is difficult to say Escobar is already better than Hardy just because we haven't seen him play much, but I don't think it is a stretch to say he has the tools and potential to be the better fielder by the end of the season. I would say Hardy is a slightly above average SS. By the end of the season I expect Escobar to be a top 5 SS by scouting reports and from what I have seen.

 

Also, I think Cameron was living off of his reputation this last season. His range was still good, but he misplayed a lot of balls. I think CF and SS has been upgraded quite a bit defensively.

[MessiahRp]

You can make a very strong case for Gomez being the best defensive center fielder on the planet. He's that good defensively. When you see him in person he makes very difficult plays look routine and easy. With him out there we have the best defensive shortstop and the best defensive center fielder.

As I am not yet sold on Escobar as a serious MLB hitting threat (yes I know he did okay in the call up but as BF.netters often preach, I am going to use the sample size argument here for a second and hope Escobar proves me wrong quickly) I think there's the distinct possibility that whatever defense they provide is going to be negated by the giant hole in the lineup we have.

 

Think of this. If Escobar doesn't hit and hit well and Gomez continues not to hit and Zaun struggles at the plate (always possible) you have four complete black holes in the lineup with the Pitcher spot. And it could get worse if Corey Hart doesn't turn it around or McGehee comes back to earth (or Gamel's still not ready). There's just a ton of negative scenarios with this lineup and I honestly think whatever defensive and financial upgrade Gomez is over Cameron, the difference in their bats will be so gaping that it will negate all of that and we'll have a negative gain on the move.

 

Maybe I am being pessimistic but this lineup outside of Braun and Prince does nothing to make me fear it. Hell I'd contemplate IBB both to get to everyone else if I was an opposing manager.

 

Rp

[logan82]

I would say Hardy is a slightly above average SS.

 

I would say you are selling JJ a little short by calling him slightly above average. He does well in any metric you look at. Not elite, which I think Escobar has the tools to become, but still well above average. I don't think Escobar will be better than JJ by the end of this season. I don't believe that there is much of a learning curve playing defense in the minors compared to the majors.

 

Somewhat of a tangent question, but if JJ was playing back to gain more range, why wouldn't Escobar play back as well? He gets the same range by playing up but I think he would get to more balls playing back leting the 3B play on the line a little more and getting to more balls up the middle.

[NievesNoNO]

MessiahRp24[/b]]Maybe I am being pessimistic but this lineup outside of Braun and Prince does nothing to make me fear it. Hell I'd contemplate IBB both to get to everyone else if I was an opposing manager.

 

Rp

Those two are enough to make me fear it. I think there's still enought offense on this team to be dangerous, granted Gomez is a large downgrade from Cameron offensively. However, it isn't a stretch to think Braun and Fielder are still young enough to improve and Weeks could actually play more than a few months (I know, big IF). While I liked Hardy he had a bad year last year so Escobar might be able to put up similar numbers and the same with Hart who really did nothing last year. All in all I don't see a big decrease in offense coming barring injuries.

[CheezWizHed]

Think of this. If Escobar doesn't hit and hit well and Gomez continues not to hit and Zaun struggles at the plate (always possible) you have four complete black holes in the lineup with the Pitcher spot. And it could get worse if Corey Hart doesn't turn it around or McGehee comes back to earth (or Gamel's still not ready). There's just a ton of negative scenarios with this lineup ...

 

What season doesn't have the same amount of questions? Or what team doesn't have questions like this? The Yankees? If all the worst scenarios pile up, any team will become a losing team.

 

Considering we have a decent set of options for each scenario you mentioned (Gomez/Gerut, Escobar/Counsell, Zaun/Lucroy/Salome, MacGehee/Gamel, Hart/Gamel/Gerut), I'm not too worried. I'm sure at least one or two of those scenarios might happen, but I doubt all four will.

[tigerbrew]

I think Escobar has better range than Hardy defensively with his superior speed, he probably covers the gaps better than Hardy. I'm optimistic about Escobar's offense, I think he will improve his OBP from last season.

[bcf5575]

Think of this. If Escobar doesn't hit and hit well and Gomez continues not to hit and Zaun struggles at the plate (always possible) you have four complete black holes in the lineup with the Pitcher spot. And it could get worse if Corey Hart doesn't turn it around or McGehee comes back to earth (or Gamel's still not ready). There's just a ton of negative scenarios with this lineup and I honestly think whatever defensive and financial upgrade Gomez is over Cameron, the difference in their bats will be so gaping that it will negate all of that and we'll have a negative gain on the move.

last year there were many black holes in the lineup with hardy, kendall, hart, cameron (yes, cameron - after his fast start he was a "black hole" for much of the season). At least Escobar and Gomez bring a speed factor to the lineup. A soft gound ball turns into a hit - beats waiting for a home run...

[logan82]

yes, cameron - after his fast start he was a "black hole" for much of the season

 

You are wrong. check the splits.

[lodiness]

It is difficult to say Escobar is already better than Hardy just because we haven't seen him play much, but I don't think it is a stretch to say he has the tools and potential to be the better fielder by the end of the season. I would say Hardy is a slightly above average SS. By the end of the season I expect Escobar to be a top 5 SS by scouting reports and from what I have seen.

Couldn't agree with you more thebruce. After seeing Escobar play last spring training, you could tell that JJ's days were numbered in my opinion. Remember most of Escobars errors in the minors last year were when they moved him to second when Weeks got hurt. As far as the people down on the Hardy trade for Gomez, what did you expect for the crappy last two seasons. Hardy was an average infielder at best in my opinion, and his offense beginning to end last season was crap, and the season before that he was horrible the second half. I think that Gomez is gonna be a stud. We were not going to get any good pitching for Hardy, and why do we need more back of of the rotation talent? We had enough of that already.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'll say it until I'm blue in the face but there is nothing in Escobar's minor league record that indicates he won't hit. He's got the experience with over 2,500 minor league AB's. He's got over 750 professional hits. His worst offensive year was as a 19 year old in the pitching dominated Florida State League, which he returned to the following year and hit .325. He's been young for every league he's been in at every step and still has a career .293 BA. He he put up better numbers at Huntsville (.328/.363/.434) than Hardy (.279/.368/.428) did, and unlike Hardy, who's lone AAA season was cut short by injury, Escobar had the benefit of a full AAA and partial major league season before being thrown in as the everyday guy. He's also coming off a winter league season where he led the Venezuelan league in hitting.

[1992casey]

At least Escobar and Gomez bring a speed factor to the lineup. A soft ground ball turns into a hit - beats waiting for a home run...

 

Gomez's .292 OBP already includes any soft ground balls that might have turned into hits. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif I think there's the potential to improve on that, but it's not likely going to be because more soft ground balls turn into hits. Rather, it would be through developing more solid contact and increasing his BB rate.

[topper09er]

yes, cameron - after his fast start he was a "black hole" for much of the season

 

You are wrong. check the splits.

Cameron in April: 20 G .333/.430/.667

Rest of season: 129 G .237/.328/.419

 

Not exactly a black hole still better than Gomez's career marks but nothing special.

 

Also, I based on the eye test I have always thought Hardy was a below average fielder because he has about the worst range I have ever seen by a ML SS. He has a good glove and very good arm, but I think range is the number 1 aspect for every position except for catcher and maybe 3B and hardy has got to be one of slowest players in the league relative to his age and body type.

[mletto157]

But he plays so far back and has such a strong arm that he actually has decent range as well. He's not fast or flashy, but because of how far back he can play his range by all metrics is still pretty good.

[topper09er]

His range factor on his career is below average despite the fact he plays near the grass. I would imagine in the dome it will get much worse.