Doug Davis returning to Milwaukee, 1 yr. $5.25 with mutual option

[Funketown]

Cubs suck. Doug Davis owns them. God bless us.

Good call, we should get back on topic. Anybody else remember the time Doug Davis hit a bases clearing opposite field double off Carlos Zambrano in the second inning of a (2006?) game, giving the Brewers an 8-2 lead?

 

I was at that game, and it has to be my favorite DD memory. There is nothing quite like seeing Carlos Zambrano curse his way off a mound.

[trwi7]

Good call, we should get back on topic. Anybody else remember the time Doug Davis hit a bases clearing opposite field double off Carlos Zambrano in the second inning of a (2006?) game, giving the Brewers an 8-2 lead?

It was June 2005. I was at that game too sitting in the field level bleachers in right field. The Cubs won the first two games of that series so their fans were talking more trash than usual. It didn't make it 8-2 though. It was a two run double that made it 3-0. Davis and Miller were on 2nd and 3rd respectively, Brady Clark singled them in, Overbay got on and then Carlos Lee hit a homer to left making it 8-0 in the 2nd inning. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[craigharmann]

I was thinking about this today, and I'm wondering if Parra might be the odd man out? Yo, Wolf, DD for sure have spots. Would the Brewers want to go with 3 Lefties? That's going to be the interesting question. Thankfully, I'd rather have Davis over Suppan, but how the rest of the rotation shakes out could be interesting.

[TheCrew]

I was a big Cameron fan - From what I've heard about Gomez, he is damn good defensively, let's assume they are the same on defense and look some offensive numbers.

 

Cam hit .233 with RISP last year - Gomez .247 (small sample size for Gomez, only 73 AB's) Cam also had 3 times as many K's as gomez with RISP but only had twice as many AB's. Cam was better at drawing the walk, but most vets are.

 

The way I see it, Cameron is 37 years old - his numbers continue to drop and while I've always like the guy, I don't think he is going to be effective for much longer. Gomez on the other hand is 24 years old, has blazing speed and plays good defense - if he can get it together at the plate, the dropoff will be minimal at best.

 

Even if Gomez doesn't improve at the plate this season, I don't see it as a substantial dropoff from Cameron - heck Cam only hit .250 last year and strikes out more often than he gets hits these days............ I'd rather have a guy that has the potential of being on the upswing than a guy who is guaranteed to be on the downside.

[SDOwen28]

Top ten...overall? Maybe.

No, not maybe. 2009 ranks among qualified CFs --

 

OPS: 7th

RC: 6th

wOBA: 8th

Stats are so overrated. Ill take:

 

1) Granderson

2) Hunter

3) Gutierrez

4) Kemp

5) Jones

6) Beltran

7) McClouth

8) Victarino

9) Morgan

10) Seizmore

[1992casey]

Wow, this thread got hijacked bad.

 

Yeah, I forgot what topic I was reading.

 

This is one of those threads that would benefit from this trick:

1. Create a new empty bookmark.
2. Give the bookmark a name and put this code into the address (location) field:

   javascript:(function()%7Bfunction%20l(u)%7Bvar%20s=document.createElement('SCRIPT');s.setAttribute('type','text/javascript');s.setAttribute('src',u);var%20h=document.getElementsByTagName('HEAD')%5B0%5D;h.appendChild(s);%7D;l('http://ezdesign.spayce.com/tools/scripts/lead.js');%7D)();

3. Every time you open a new page within the topic, open the bookmark. It'll put the lead post on the top of the page you're reading.

If you want to test the code without bothering with the bookmark, just paste the code into your URL bar and hit enter (return).

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Ennder]

Stats are so overrated. Ill take:

 

1) Granderson

2) Hunter

3) Gutierrez

4) Kemp

5) Jones

6) Beltran

7) McClouth

8) Victarino

9) Morgan

10) Seizmore

The question was top 10 offensively. Find it hard to believe offensively you'd take all those guys over Cameron unless you really have a thing for AVG.

[berniebrewer4life]

Stats are so overrated.

Better make me some popcorn, this is about to get good.

[hawing]

Good call, we should get back on topic. Anybody else remember the time Doug Davis hit a bases clearing opposite field double off Carlos Zambrano in the second inning of a (2006?) game, giving the Brewers an 8-2 lead?

I remember this June 2006 game where the Sharpie had 11 strikeouts, then Derrick Turnbow gave up two runs in the 9th to let Washington win. But I enjoyed the 11 strikeouts immensely.

 

(Keeping this on topic is feeling like driving a car with no power steering.)

[dlk9s]

Stats are so overrated.

Better make me some popcorn, this is about to get good.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4821/903cluof2.gif

[Funketown]

Good call, we should get back on topic. Anybody else remember the time Doug Davis hit a bases clearing opposite field double off Carlos Zambrano in the second inning of a (2006?) game, giving the Brewers an 8-2 lead?

I remember this June 2006 game where the Sharpie had 11 strikeouts, then Derrick Turnbow gave up two runs in the 9th to let Washington win. But I enjoyed the 11 strikeouts immensely.

 

(Keeping this on topic is feeling like driving a car with no power steering.)

I'm sorry, but I do not seem to remember Derrick Turnbow giving up any baserunners, much less runs, while pitching for the Brewers. You must be mistaken. My only memory of Derrick Turnbow is when he struck out the side in the 9th inning of a tie game against Pittsburgh, setting the stage for a Prince Fielder walk-off. His second career homer, all set up by the bow.

 

Oh, Turnbow.

[TooLiveBrew]

Stats are so overrated

Those pesky facts... they ruin everything!

[clancyphile]

Good signing. While it doesn't excite me, it soooooooooothes me. Runners are going to have a tough time swiping bases against the Brewers this year.

If the umps don't yell "Balk!" if they do get a good pickoff move. Remember how Sharpie got ripped in `04 when he had Berkman cold?

[TheCrew07]

I don't think anyone will be surprised by my take.

 

As far as what Melvin could have done differently? Is that a question that seriously still needs to be asked? The answer depends how far back you want to go.... if were going back 2 weeks it's reasonable to assume this was the best he could do. If we're going back 6 years the possibilities are limitless. The dominoes absolutely did not have to fall this way, it wasn't set in stone by a higher power, this outcome was predictable only because of how Melvin has operated in the past.

 

As far as a deadline deal.... why? So we can be right back in the same place next off season? Why wouldn't we want some sort of permanent solution to go with Yo? Pitchers are fragile, we're years away from a home grown rotation, why not add pieces that will help today and tomorrow, instead of just today?

 

I'll say this, if anyone on this site would have convinced me in 2005 that all we'd have to show for the hitting talent that came through the minors in this first wave was a 1 and done in the playoffs and the rotation would still be 1 marquee player and 4 averagish starters I would have been crushed. So it's not surprising that I look at the progress of the rotation over the last 5 years and I'm very disappointed, and by extension the progress of team has left me very disappointed.

 

DM is a great patcher of the rotation, but he's not a great builder of a rotation. On paper the rotation looks better, but on paper going into last season the rotation didn't look as bad as it turned it out. All the same things were said about Looper (I even made some of the comments even though I didn't want him signed) about over performing his contract, being excellent value for the dollar, and so on. I think DM is a victim of his own success, he gets just enough production to get the team to brink and keep fan interest high, but I honestly don't believe we'll get over the hump patching the rotation after every season. DM is fond of talking about "payroll flexibility". am I the only who finds it ironic that he's actually done the exact opposite, signing FA players and maxing out the payroll every single year? Where's the flexibility in that?

 

The truth is that Davis doesn't make this a playoff caliber rotation, the season hinges largely on the same 2 players it did last season, Gallardo and Parra. Yo needs to take a step forward and become more economical with his pitches, something he hasn't done thus far in his young career, not even in AA or AAA. Parra needs to start getting results closer to his potential as he's the only other pitcher with top of the rotation talent above AA in the organization. Without Yo pitching like a true ace and Parra ascending, we simply won't have enough innings in the rotation. I will also say that there is no way the Brewers have a top 5-7 rotation in the NL as someone predicted earlier, using last year's numbers the staff would have to put up sub 4.20 combined ERA to be in the top 8. Objectively that seems highly unlikely, Parra would have to be very good for the rotation to approach those numbers, he's the only pitcher we have with enough stuff and poor enough results to make a significant enough jump for that scenario to happen. We have 1 pitcher with a career ERA under 4, which makes it very difficult to have a team ERA in the low 4s.

 

I don't see a rotation of Yo, Wolf, Davis, and Bush getting it done in the post season. We might compete for a playoff spot, but signing Wolf and Davis doesn't guarantee anything. In fact, I felt the team was an 86 win team going in to 2009, but that was based largely on the idea that Parra would start ascending and Bush would continue to pitch as he did at the end of 2008. With Parra faltering, Bush getting hurt, no trade for a player of front line ability at any level, I predict somewhere between 81-83 wins for this team going into 2010.

 

I've always thought of myself as optimist but over the last 2 years I've lost quite a bit of faith in Melvin's ability to push the team over the hump to the next level, and I honestly have no use for Macha, and that's coming from someone who aggressively supported the coaching staff in the past (with the exception of Yost's defined bullpen roles). I just see the same pattern continually repeating itself... yes the pattern is better than 20 years of futility, but it's not enough for me anymore.

[Oldcity]

That's true. What it comes down to is we're faced with a strong possibility of getting one measly playoff appearance out of this heralded corps we'd been hearing about for years, and it's due to the lack of pitching.

[RightFieldCoder]

So on one hand this rotation isn't any good because there are no young pitchers to go along with our hitters. On the other hand, this rotation isn't any good because the two young pitchers haven't lived up to their potential.

 

If Yo and Parra came into the majors pitching to their talent level like Braun and Fielder came into the majors hitting to their talent level, no one would be complaining about the other pitchers we have on staff.

[davego]

It's important to be able to hold to conflicting thoughts in your mind at the same time and believe them both to be true...

[Invader3K]

*shrug* Clearly there have been some missteps. They maybe didn't draft enough quality pitching, but they have also had some bad luck (Parra, Rodgers, Jeffress, etc, etc.)

 

I guess if you keep pointing back to what should have been done four or five years ago, you'd never really be happy anyway. No one could predict we'd only have one playoff run by this point, and that's more than many teams have to talk about. At least we're not still among the Kansas City and Pittsburgh types of the league.

 

Davis is a short term fix, and not a costly one. Next year's FA crop is supposedly better, and Melvin should have more payroll flexibility and perhaps some more palatable trading chips to deal at that point.

[Ennder]

That's true. What it comes down to is we're faced with a strong possibility of getting one measly playoff appearance out of this heralded corps we'd been hearing about for years, and it's due to the lack of pitching.

Almost every team has a heralded group of young players, getting one playoff and barely missing another is hardly some huge let down. Especially for a team that was miserable with a miserable minor league system when Melvin took over. Hardy, Parra and Weeks suffered through injuries. Every other young pitcher we've drafted except for Gallardo hasn't panned out. It happens.

[RobertR]

I'll take the stats over the selective memory crowd. Which isn't to say that Cameron is a super amazing player guaranteed to keep playing as well as he had in the past, but we will take a hit in CF in 2010 offensively. Perhaps a big one. We're really going to need Gomez to do significantly better than his .246/.292/.346 career line.

 

The Brewers era with Prince and crew isn't over. We don't have to bury them yet, especially since the division isn't that strong and they're bound to get better starting pitching this year. Heck, Bush wasn't pitching that badly (4.38 ERA through May) until he took a ball off his arm. I can't see how Parra could be any worse either. Combined with Wolf and Davis, it's not unreasonable to think 4 spots in the rotation will be better. I can't say whether they'll be better enough, that really depends on Bush and Parra, but if the marching orders were to improve run prevention this offseason, then they did a very reasonable job of it.

 

Robert

[PrestigeWorldwide]

TheCrew07[/b]]I'll say this, if anyone on this site would have convinced me in 2005 that all we'd have to show for the hitting talent that came through the minors in this first wave was a 1 and done in the playoffs and the rotation would still be 1 marquee player and 4 averagish starters I would have been crushed.

If someone told me in 2005 that we would make the playoffs within the next three years, and that the team would not return to doormat status immediately afterward, I would have been jumping for joy.

[dlk9s]

We're not here to talk about the past...

[logan82]

The only really bad decision that can be made with the rotation at this point is putting Suppan in the rotation on opening day without an injury to one of our other starters. I have no faith in Macha keeping Suppan out of the rotation. Gallardo, Davis and Wolf are probably guaranteed to be in the rotation. Bush should as well unless, like mentioned earlier, he shows a loss of velocity or can't locate. I would prefer Parra in there as well unless he walks the world in Spring Training. Suppan is next if somebody gets hurt.

[monty57]

Wow, this thread got hijacked bad. Can we go back to talking about how exciting our rotation is now and what a joy it will be this year to hold game tickets for studs like Wolf and Davis?

Yes, I'd much rather have the excitement of buying tickets for Ben Sheets only to realize he has a hangnail and isn't pitching. Maybe we could've signed Sheets and Bedard, so we'd be able to feel that excitement out of two of our rotation spots. I also like the excitement of watching Dave Bush pitch wonderfully for a few innings, knowing that he's going to blow up and post a 3-walk, 5-run inning. Looper was pretty exciting, as the Brewers scored 7+ runds a game for him, but he still managed to keep the game close. Parra's pretty exciting, as we don't know if we'll get the confident Parra who can mow down hitters with ease or the Parra who looks lost and can't throw anything other than a meatball over the middle of the plate. Other exciting pitchers we've seen like Jorge de la Rosa, Derrick Turnbow and Jose Capellan really made my heart beat fast... all for the wrong reasons.

 

I like pitchers who do their job and get through games while giving their team a reasonable chance of winning. Those that do this with blazing fastballs and high K rates are really expensive as FAs and very rarely traded by their teams. Generally, for a team like the Brewers to have these players on their team, they need to bring them up through their system, and it really appears that is what they are doing. Maybe a little late in coming, but coming none the less.

 

Until then, I am glad that Melvin is signing players that should be able to give the Brewers a reasonable chance to win most of the times they toe the mound, whether they "excite" a particular fan or not.

[monty57]

As far as what Melvin could have done differently? Is that a question that seriously still needs to be asked? The answer depends how far back you want to go.... if were going back 2 weeks it's reasonable to assume this was the best he could do. If we're going back 6 years the possibilities are limitless. The dominoes absolutely did not have to fall this way, it wasn't set in stone by a higher power, this outcome was predictable only because of how Melvin has operated in the past.

 

TheCrew07, would you be happier if Rogers and Jones (among others) would have lived up to their potential, but Braun and Fielder got hurt and never made it to the Majors. Then, we'd have a great pitching staff, but no offense, and likely would have been in roughly the same shape. Instead of "wasting" prospects to in a CC Sabathia trade, we probably would have "wasted" them in a Texiara deal that might have gotten us to the playoffs for a one-and-done deal.

 

While it may be fun to speculate, it is impossible to go back and say what could have been done that would have made a difference. There are far too many variables in place, and one move that is or isn't made would have countless future possibilities. Maybe we pulled a Prince Fielder for young pitcher trade four years ago, as many here were calling for. Where would we be now? No one knows. Maybe we'd be better, but likely we'd be worse. What if we'd have traded Hardy before last season for a better player? Maybe he'd have had a great season for the team he was traded to instead of a miserable season on Milwaukee. No way to tell.

 

As for the reality of the present, we have a rotation with one possible ace (Gallardo), one high ceiling guy we hope puts it all together (Parra), two solid lefties without "blow you away stuff" (Wolf, Davis) and two unspectacular righties either of which will probably be among the best fifth starters in baseball (Bush, Suppan). We also have finally built a modicum of depth at the AAA level, which has been seriously lacking for some time, and we have some really, really good pitchers in the minors, finally getting to the level where they could help as soon as this year, with much more help coming in 2011 and beyond.

 

Will we have a top 5 rotation? Probably not. But we should have a middle-of-the-road rotation, which when added to a better than average lineup, and what should be a pretty decent defense, could at least keep us in the playoff hunt. I don't know what you could ask of Melvin and his staff. Even $100MM+ payroll teams cannot put together a team year in and year out that is a "Playoffs aren't good enough, it's World Series or bust" caliber team.

 

I'm with you, I want the rotation to be better. However, when you think back to the "could have beens," try to remember the events that have happened to the pitchers like Rogers, Jones and even Jeffress, who should be manning the top spots in our rotation along with Gallardo. And also remember that we had a pathetic team from the low minors to the majors not too long ago, and now we have a very respectable franchise that should remain competitive for at least as long as Mark A is rational enough to keep Doug Melvin as his GM, and doesn't do something rash simply because we missed the playoffs in 2009.