Bill Hall traded to Boston

[TheCrew07]

Ultimately if Hardy and Hall had a problem with it, they could look in the mirror and see who was to blame.

While I definitely agree that the players have no one to blame for their performances but themselves, the circumstances surrounding Hardy and Hall exiting the franchise were hardly ideal, much like Gamel coming up and riding the pine for nothing last season and Parra's short stay at AAA. There just doesn't seem to be any sort of long term plan here, just a "fly by the seat of my pants" type of management.

 

Regardless of how anyone feels about Hardy's play, the move was clearly about service time and not about getting Hardy "right" down the in minors, given he was down the bare minimum. I don't agree at all that Melvin did the correct thing and I always wanted Hardy traded, they hurt his career by bringing him up too soon, and they screwed him over last season using performance as an excuse. If I was a player in this organization I'm not sure how I'd feel about management at all, there certainly wouldn't be much trust.

[endaround]

Just think how much more screwed the Brewers would have been last season if they hadn't had Suppan around. We would have had to rely on someone like Mike Burns even more. Aside from 3-4 really horrid outings, Suppan was not that horrible last season. "Downright brutal" is a stretch. Yes, very overpaid, but the Brewers needed him last year and will probably need him this coming year. Hopefully after 2010, Parra will have proven himself to be a competent pitcher, or perhaps someone in the minors will be ready to join the rotation.

 

Yes he was horrible, terrible and not very good. He was below replacement level. If we didn't have Suppan we might now have a better clue about Narveson.

[Thurston Fluff]

they hurt his career by bringing him up too soon, and they screwed him over last season using performance as an excuse.

 

Wasn't his performance worthy of demotion? Didn't he get outplayed by the guy who replced him? Isn't the majors supposed to be for the best players available? Why should he not be held to the same standards as others? He was given a chance and failed. That is on him. What happens after that is dictated by what is best for the team not what is best for Hardy.

If he would have sucked from day one and never got better then maybe you could use his being brought up too early as an excuse. If his career was so hurt it's hard to understand how he managed to get to be an All-star? Hardy has only Hardy to blame. As badly as you think Hardy was screwed over I think an argument could be made that Hardy screwed the Brewers over by his poor play. He cost the Brewers a much better player than Gomez is by his poor play. Melvin certainly didn't go into the season hoping Hardy would suck so bad that his value would be increased by a demotion. Had he just played to his career norm his value would have been much higher even with one year left before FA than it is now with two and huge questions about his ability. It always makes me wonder why in sports it's so hard to blame the guy who actually sucks for what happens to him.

[Invader3K]

Yes he was horrible, terrible and not very good. He was below replacement level. If we didn't have Suppan we might now have a better clue about Narveson.

 

Aside from a few really bad starts, he was probably about replacement level, not below it. And I didn't realize Narveson was such a highly regarded prospect until roughly August '09. If we're pinning our hopes on Narveson in 2010, we're really in trouble. Besides, Narveson proved himself as an MLB option to be looked at in Spring Training. I don't really know how much more "showcasing" he should have gotten in '09.

[Ennder]

Suppan was the least of our problems last year.

 

He had two cruddy starts to begin the year and pitched just like his other seasons the rest of the way. He was better than Parra and bush and equal to Looper results wise and better than the guys who tried to fill in for injuries. If we really wanted to see more of Narveson last year there were plenty of chances. We brought Parra back up before he was ready, pitched Bush even though he was hurt, brought Suppan back from his rehab before he was probably ready. They did all this because of lack of depth and not trusting Narveson. Not having Suppan last year would have made the team worse. Of course if we had spent the money we did on him on another player that would make the team better.

[joepepsi]

He could still end up with a Jarry Hairston type career; not really very good, but handy to have around as a 25th man.

[rluzinski]

Yes he was horrible, terrible and not very good. He was below replacement level. If we didn't have Suppan we might now have a better clue about Narveson.

 

Aside from a few really bad starts, he was probably about replacement level, not below it. And I didn't realize Narveson was such a highly regarded prospect until roughly August '09. If we're pinning our hopes on Narveson in 2010, we're really in trouble. Besides, Narveson proved himself as an MLB option to be looked at in Spring Training. I don't really know how much more "showcasing" he should have gotten in '09.

 

Aside from his two best starts, he had a 5.75 ERA.

[Hate those Rodents]

The sad thing is that there is a chance that Suppan, if the fifth starter, makes more than our other four starters combined even after throwing Wolf into the foursome.

[RockCoCougars]

I like the way Melvin handled Hardy and Hall last season. Players who don't live up to what they are paid deserve to be held accountable more often. Maybe part of it was "sending a signal to the team", but part of it was making room for younger players who could get some playing time, so the team could see what they had going into next year.

 

Ultimately if Hardy and Hall had a problem with it, they could look in the mirror and see who was to blame.

Why doesn't this principle apply to Suppan then? He made more than Hardy and Hall combined. Over 10% of the team's total payroll. I guess the argument basically is, "outside of his really bad games, he pitched to his career norms..... which suck" - or "we knew he was bad when we signed him".

[Thurston Fluff]

Why doesn't this principle apply to Suppan then? He made more than Hardy and Hall combined. Over 10% of the team's total payroll. I guess the argument basically is, "outside of his really bad games, he pitched to his career norms..... which suck" - or "we knew he was bad when we signed him".

 

First of all he was about average for a 5th starter. That has value. Hardy and Hall both had no value to the team playing the way they were.

It's not about the money spent it's about not being the best option for the team. Hall and Hardy both sucked and had a replacement player available. Suppan was the best available option so he got used. I have no doubt at all if there was a better player available Suppan's salary would not have been enough to keep him around. We could have at least got something of value for Suppan in a trade if we were willing to eat as much of his salary as we were Hall's.

[RockCoCougars]

Why doesn't this principle apply to Suppan then? He made more than Hardy and Hall combined. Over 10% of the team's total payroll. I guess the argument basically is, "outside of his really bad games, he pitched to his career norms..... which suck" - or "we knew he was bad when we signed him".

 

First of all he was about average for a 5th starter. That has value. Hardy and Hall both had no value to the team playing the way they were.

It's not about the money spent it's about not being the best option for the team. Hall and Hardy both sucked and had a replacement player available. Suppan was the best available option so he got used. I have no doubt at all if there was a better player available Suppan's salary would not have been enough to keep him around. We could have at least got something of value for Suppan in a trade if we were willing to eat as much of his salary as we were Hall's.

Hardy and Hall both had a replacement player available largely because the team traded for Lopez instead of a pitcher like Pavano. This made absolutely no sense to me especially considering the team didn't even offer Lopez arbitration. Further confounding is why a guy like Jason Bourgeois was brought up to replace Hall. He was never in the team's future plans and ended up performing worse than Hall would have. Going further, Melvin has picked up exactly one starting pitcher while losing one this offseason, meaning he has done absolutely nothing to improve starting pitching depth (adding "available options"). This makes no sense, and frankly I am worried that this team has no plan.

[joepepsi]

I think Hardy and Hall's replacements were Escobar and McGehee, respectively.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't think Lopez was Hall's replacement. Lopez was Weeks replacement. If he wouldn't have been on the team Hall would have ben replaced by someone else.

For the sake of argument though do you really think replacing a pitcher with a 5.29 ERA for one with a 5.10 ERA was going to do as much as replacing a 600 OPS player with a 810 OPS player?

 

Really though it doesn't matter. Hall was not worth anything while Suppan was about a league average 5th starter. Not worth his pay but still not totally worthless like Hall was.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't think Lopez was Hall's replacement. Lopez was Weeks replacement. If he wouldn't have been on the team Hall would have ben replaced by someone else.

For the sake of argument though do you really think replacing a pitcher with a 5.29 ERA for one with a 5.10 ERA was going to do as much as replacing a 600 OPS player with a 810 OPS player?

 

Really though it doesn't matter. Hall was not worth anything while Suppan was about a league average 5th starter. Not worth his pay but still not totally worthless like Hall was.

So McGehee, Counsell, Hall or Hardy could not have finished the season at 2nd base? Why was Lopez acquired, shifting Counsell and McGehee to third, blocking Gamel .... especially when a starting pitcher was more needed at the time? Why did the team feel that Escobar was ready to play regularly and Gamel was not? Why did Melvin acquire David Weathers, which bascially cancelled out the savings from the Hall "salary dump" when the team was obviously out of the race? All of these questions shout "no plan" to me.

[Thurston Fluff]

So McGehee, Counsell, Hall or Hardy could not have finished the season at 2nd base?

 

Because Lopez was better and the team had hopes of comepting for a playoff spot at the time.

 

Why was Lopez acquired, shifting Counsell and McGehee to third, blocking Gamel

 

My guess is Gamel's defense wasn't good enough to be trusted.

 

especially when a starting pitcher was more needed at the time?

 

That's assuming they could have had one for the price they were willing to pay. Starting pitching even crappy ones are expensive in trade.

 

Why did the team feel that Escobar was ready to play regularly and Gamel was not?

 

Defense and attitude combined with better options in Mcgehee and Counsell would be my guess.

 

Why did Melvin acquire David Weathers, which bascially cancelled out the savings from the Hall "salary dump" when the team was obviously out of the race?

 

I don't think they felt out of the race when they go Weathers. Fans quit far faster than teams do. Hall as not a salary dump since they didn't dump much salary at all. IT was pretty much a bad player dump.

[Crew2323]

So McGehee, Counsell, Hall or Hardy could not have finished the season at 2nd base? Why was Lopez acquired, shifting Counsell and McGehee to third, blocking Gamel .... especially when a starting pitcher was more needed at the time? Why did the team feel that Escobar was ready to play regularly and Gamel was not? Why did Melvin acquire David Weathers, which bascially cancelled out the savings from the Hall "salary dump" when the team was obviously out of the race? All of these questions shout "no plan" to me.

McGehee was raking at at third base, and I wonder if his knee limited him to staying at third base. If I remember correctly, Hall was tried at second base and he wasn't very good there. And what makes you think Hardy would have accepted being moved to second? If the rumors are true that he scoffed at moving to third for Escobar, I don't see why he would have been suddenly willing to move to second.

 

As far as Counsell is concerned, from the time Weeks went down with an injury on May 17 to the time the Brewers acquired Lopez on July 19, the Brewers played 55 games (If I counted correctly). Out of those 55 games, Counsell played in 48. In 39 of those 48 games, Counsell played second base. During that time span he went from a .339/.432 avg/obp to a .280/.350 avg/obp. Now I realize that he wasn't going to maintain a .339 average or a .432 obp. and I will concede that his .280/.350 line was also respectable/good. But Counsell, at his age, isn't really capable of playing every day at this point in his career. I would imagine Melvin and Co. noticed the decline in Counsell's numbers and the lack of productive options they really had, and went ahead and traded for Lopez. I won't consider that a poor move, or a sign that they didn't have a plan. I think you could argue that the Brewers didn't acquire Lopez soon enough.

[Ennder]

The only mistake they made with Lopez is not offering him arbitration.

[Invader3K]

Like others pointed out, the Lopez trade was made when the team still had a fairly realistic shot at the playoffs. He did not cost much of anything, and performed extremely well with the Brewers. I wish people would keep pointing to that as some horrible trade, or make it sound like Melvin wasn't TRYING to trade for pitching help.

[monty57]

One of the first decisions Macha made after being announced as manager was to name Bill Hall as the everyday 3B. This was before ST last year. Hall was given every chance to shine, and he blew it, just like he has ever since signing his contract. Melvin essentially traded him for around $1.5MM (IIRC) in salary relief and to open up a 25-man spot for someone more useful. The $1.5MM he saved could probably be looked at as what we're using to pay Counsell this season.

 

As for Hardy, I have to agree with the poster that agrued that we couldn't have screwed his progression up too much, if he was able to become an All-Star. We may have cost ourselves some "cheap" years, but it's hard to argue that bringing him up early is what hurt him last season. He had a really bad year, and that's on him. The fact that he whined that he needed more rest probably expidited his trip to AAA. I think that some of the people who complain that we didn't trade him prior to last year would have been complaining just as loud if we had traded him, and Escobar came up and sucked, and Hardy tore it up with the team he was traded to.

 

As has been stated, Suppan wasn't/isn't useless. He is probably an average 5th starter. He is overpaid, but not useless. Our biggest problem with pitching is lack of de. pth. If Bush and Suppan had sat out with injuries last year (and the previous year for Suppan), their numbers would likely be better. However, the team needed someone to pitch, so they toed the mound, even though they clearly weren't 100%. Melvin and Jack Z both deserve blame for lack of depth, but so do Jeffress, Rogers, Jones, etc. Maybe there's an element of bad luck in things other than BABIP and HR%.

 

It's hard to be perfect. Melvin took over a horrid franchise (not just at the MLB level). He has turned it into a respectable franchise. We used to long for a .500 season. Now we go 80-82 with a team that had a fair share of injuries and players playing well below their projections, and we're upset about it. I went into last year hoping fro playoffs as well, and wish we had a better season than we did, but to the anit-Melvin crowd, please stop bashing Melvin on every single thread. I understand you're upset at some of the things he's done, but he has had a LOT to do with Brewers fans being able to be proud of their franchise for the first time in 20+ years.

[RyDogg66]

The only mistake they made with Lopez is not offering him arbitration.

Because teams have been beating down his door all off season to hand him a multi year deal.

[thumperden]

So, now with Bill Hall in Boston with Mike Cameron, who's going to play center field?!http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Ennder]

The only mistake they made with Lopez is not offering him arbitration.

Because teams have been beating down his door all off season to hand him a multi year deal.

Because he would have almost certainly turned it down and even if he didn't it isn't the end of the world. We go into the season with substantial question marks at SS and 2B and the extra depth would have been nice anyway. Going into the season with Weeks as the starting 2B is a huge question mark give his wrists.

[joepepsi]

It's early January and monty57 has already written the Post of the Year.

[logan82]

The fact that he whined that he needed more rest probably expidited his trip to AAA.

 

JJ probably did need more rest. He has had shoulder and back problems for a few years now. I don't think it is a stretch at all to say he might have needed a few more days off. He didn't whine about it either. He said he probably should have talked to Macha about more days off. The way Jj was handled by the Brewers last year was crappy. Well within their rights but still crappy. If they had left him down at least till the end of the AAA season I wouldn't say that but they left him down just long enough to get another year out of him.

[RockCoCougars]

The fact that he whined that he needed more rest probably expidited his trip to AAA.

 

JJ probably did need more rest. He has had shoulder and back problems for a few years now. I don't think it is a stretch at all to say he might have needed a few more days off. He didn't whine about it either. He said he probably should have talked to Macha about more days off. The way Jj was handled by the Brewers last year was crappy. Well within their rights but still crappy. If they had left him down at least till the end of the AAA season I wouldn't say that but they left him down just long enough to get another year out of him.

Agreed. It's not going to be fun watching Hardy have a good year next year for the Twins. We can only hope that Gomez can step up and play to his potential.