Bill Hall traded to Boston

[AJAY]

It's all over twitter. Bill Hall goes to Boston in exchange for Casey Kotchman going to Seattle.

[RockCoCougars]

Still trying to figure out why Melvin didn't wait until the offseason to mess with Hall and Hardy. He killed the trade value for both of them when Suppan is the one who should have been jettisoned.

[Funketown]

Huh. You gotta think he'll struggle to find playing time there, no?

[jerichoholicninja]

If he is traded do we still pay him this year? Are we still paying him this year?

[TooLiveBrew]

Still trying to figure out why Melvin didn't wait until the offseason to mess with Hall and Hardy. He killed the trade value for both of them when Suppan is the one who should have been jettisoned.

Hall & Hardy killed their own trade value, and Suppan was needed (just as a body) given the state of the rotation in 2009. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that someone found a way to slam Melvin, though.

[1992casey]

jerichoholicninja, this doesn't change anything from Milwaukee's standpoint. The Brewers will continue to pay almost all of Hall's salary.

[colbyjack]

Sure, now Zduriencik gets Kotchman http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif.

[craigharmann]

Kinda figured he might be the odd man out with the signing of Beltre.

[Invader3K]

I don't understand what possible need Boston has for Hall at this point. Maybe they figure Lowell is a complete loss for the season, which could be a factor.

[BREWCREW5]

AJAY, do you have a link for this?

 

I see that it is "close" on mlb.com but I am not seeing this anywhere else.

 

 

Also, from what I am reading, this doesnt look to just be Bill Hall for Kotchman. The mariners are also sending a minor league player and CASH along with Hall for Kotchman.

[crewcrazy]

BREWCREW5, everyone seems to be running with a tweet from Ken Rosenthal confirming that Hall is in the trade. I don't think anything's official yet, but it seems to be more than rumor.

 

I think this is a good deal for both sides. Jack Z essentially turns Ruben Flores into Casey Kotchman, and Boston replaces a relatively expensive reserve infielder with one that's practically free and plays better defense at more positions. Really depends on who the minor leaguer is, though..I'd think it'd have to be someone with average potential, because Kotchman for Hall seems pretty one-sided, but I'm not sure what they have left to deal after the Halladay/Lee blockbuster.

[AJAY]

Here is a link for you . . .

 

http://www.csnne.com/page...D=112530&feedID=3947

[1992casey]

I think the big motivation for this deal was for the Red Sox to shed salary and avoid paying luxury tax.

[Ennder]

Seattle gets a a below average 1B which replaces their replacement level one and the Red Sox shed a little salary and gain some backup depth.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Kotchman is a pretty good defender too so this adds to Seattle's historically good defense.

[RockCoCougars]

Still trying to figure out why Melvin didn't wait until the offseason to mess with Hall and Hardy. He killed the trade value for both of them when Suppan is the one who should have been jettisoned.

Hall & Hardy killed their own trade value, and Suppan was needed (just as a body) given the state of the rotation in 2009. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that someone found a way to slam Melvin, though.

Who is at fault for the "state of the rotation" in 2009? I would say the blame lies at the feet of Melvin. Otherwise, what is the excuse? Dave Bush getting smoked with a line drive? Melvin is the person who felt comfortable entering the season with Parra as his #2 and Suppan as his #3. Not sure what the point was of demoting Hardy and giving Hall away for nothing when the team was out of the race by any stretch of the imagination. They should have showcased those two guys with the hope that they would finish strong (probably wouldn't have happened with Hall but very well could have with Hardy). Instead all they did was waste service time for Escobar.

 

I posted the same thing at the time of the purge in August and people countered with "Bill Hall has no value", etc., etc. Apparently the Red Sox feel that he does. On the other hand, it would be difficult to find a taker for Suppan even if the Brewers paid 90% of his salary. I'll withhold judgement on the Hardy trade for now, but I have an uneasy feeling about it for whatever reason.

[Ennder]

Who is at fault for the "state of the rotation" in 2009? I would say the blame lies at the feet of Melvin

 

Jack Z is at fault more than anyone else. Melvin is a close 2nd. When you only draft 1.5 major league quality pitchers in an 8 year span it tends to cause problems.

[TooLiveBrew]

Who is at fault for the "state of the rotation" in 2009?

 

So the solution to an already bad problem is to make it worse? (your idea of jettisoning Suppan)

 

 

Not sure what the point was of demoting Hardy and giving Hall away for nothing when the team was out of the race

 

They got the best available deal for Hall. I guarantee you Melvin had been working for months to unload that contract, & finally found something he could stomach. As for Hardy, they kept him in AAA to increase his service time. Doing this actually increased his trade value, because it gives his new team (obv. now MIN) more salary control of him. A one-week stretch of palatable offense really wouldn't have done anything to increase J.J.'s value.

 

Like I said, some people just do anything to find fault with Melvin -- nevermind that he's widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the game. Every GM makes mistakes, but one like Melvin just doesn't make nearly as many as the rest of his peers.

 

 

I posted the same thing at the time of the purge in August and people countered with "Bill Hall has no value", etc., etc. Apparently the Red Sox feel that he does.

 

Yes, they feel he has value because they're hardly going to have to pay him a dime, and they are in dire need of a cheap IF backup since Lowell won't be able to contribute much in 2010. Like BREWCREW5 noted, the M's are also sending a minor leaguer & cash along with Hall. If anything, this is Zduriencik turning a redundant player into one Seattle can actually use in Kotchman.

[SeriesFinale]

Here is a link for you . . .

 

http://www.csnne.com/page...D=112530&feedID=3947

(The cost will actually be shouldered by the Milwaukee Brewers, who agreed to pick up most of Hall's remaining salary when they dealt him to Seattle last August. Thus, in a unique twist, the small-market Brewers will help subsidize the Red Sox, one of the most profitable teams in the game.)

 

 

Ugh. I know it's all relative (although remember when the Brewers supposedly told the Yanks to pound sand when they wanted us to pick up Cam's salary in a deal because, well, they were the Yankees?), but ugh.

 

I don't have strong pro- or anti-DM feelings, but that parenthetical doesn't reflect altogether well--on the fact that that contract was signed to begin with (I have less a problem with that) or the fact that he couldn't deal him without the Brewers shouldering the burden and at that time (more problematic to me). Yeah, I know it was ultimately Hall's play, but still.

 

 

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

So the solution to an already bad problem is to make it worse? (your idea of jettisoning Suppan)

In my opinion, getting Suppan out of the rotation would be addition by subtraction. The guy has been downright brutal for the past two years and I would bet that many waiver wire pickups (someone like Jeff Weaver) would have outperformed him somewhat.

 

As far as Hall goes, I will agree that he was tradeable because the Red Sox won't have to pay him anything. That said, the Brewers ate almost his entire salary when they didn't have to. There was no reason whatsoever for the team to jump the gun and trade him during the season. Do you think that it took months for Melvin to craft the trade for Flores (is he still even with the organization?). Worst case is that you have to cut him in the offseason, best case is that you make a deal like Boston did today. As for Hardy I disagree that messing with his service time by sending him to the minors increased his trade value. Maybe for a small market team like the Twins, but had the Brewers played out the string wth Hardy and he got into a hot streak, they could have leveraged things somewhat by using the Hardy/Escobar situation as a smoke screen. They could have played the "we don't know which one we want to keep" angle. Once Hardy was demoted, every GM in the game knew that he would have to be moved in the offseason.

 

In conclusion, the main problem that I have with Melvin is that he seems to sit on his hand for months and then make rash decisons seemingly on the spur of the moment. Case in point, the August purge of Hardy and Hall. At that point, there was no need to do anything. Another example I would use is the Wolf signing. Given the market that we have seen, I would bet dollars to donuts that he would still be out there unsigned had the Brewers not signed him. This sort of rash decision making causes me to question whether or not Doug is truly pulling all the strings or if there is another person who sometimes steps in.

[cwolf2012]

"best case is that you make a deal like Boston did today."

 

This deal wouldn't have happened if Hall's salary wasn't effectively league minimum. Not even Dayton Moore would be willing to take the full cost of hall. We saved a couple mil on Hall, and got rid of him. It was about the best DM was going to do. Acting as if we could have gotten a player of even Kotchman's level for Hall is absurd unless we had paid a lot of cash. I'm guessing SEA is still sending a decent prospect and covering even more of Hall's salary. Would you have traded Hall + a mid-level prospect + 10 mil for Kotchman?

 

Hardy is a different story, but that's not relevant.

[RightFieldCoder]

To keep Hall until Jan (in order to trade him to BOS), we would have had to keep Hall on the 40 man roster through the end of the season and the Rule-5 draft. Who would we have left off the roster to keep a spot open for Hall in the hopes that someone would trade for him?

[Invader3K]

I like the way Melvin handled Hardy and Hall last season. Players who don't live up to what they are paid deserve to be held accountable more often. Maybe part of it was "sending a signal to the team", but part of it was making room for younger players who could get some playing time, so the team could see what they had going into next year.

 

Ultimately if Hardy and Hall had a problem with it, they could look in the mirror and see who was to blame.

[Thurston Fluff]

In my opinion, getting Suppan out of the rotation would be addition by subtraction. The guy has been downright brutal for the past two years and I would bet that many waiver wire pickups (someone like Jeff Weaver) would have outperformed him somewhat.

 

If you think getting rid of an average 5th starter is addition by subtraction then, yes it would have been. I tend to think having an average 5th starter is better than replacement level. His problem wasn't that he wasn't good enough to be the 5th man in a rotation. It was how much he's being paid to be one. You have to separate overpaid from useless. Though it pains me to say it because I always liked him Hall was useless. Soup is overpaid.

[Invader3K]

Just think how much more screwed the Brewers would have been last season if they hadn't had Suppan around. We would have had to rely on someone like Mike Burns even more. Aside from 3-4 really horrid outings, Suppan was not that horrible last season. "Downright brutal" is a stretch. Yes, very overpaid, but the Brewers needed him last year and will probably need him this coming year. Hopefully after 2010, Parra will have proven himself to be a competent pitcher, or perhaps someone in the minors will be ready to join the rotation.