Vazquez to Yankees

[bigredrobbo]

This isn't fantasy baseball. Maybe DM DID offer all that you said, and the Braves went, "nah, we prefer Melky and the rest, thanks". What are you gonna do when the other side doesn't value your player as much as it values another team's guy?

 

YOUR opinion is that Hart is a better player than Cabrera. Obviously Atlanta disagrees...

[TooLiveBrew]

Again, aside from Hoffman, the money Melvin spent was after ATL's asking price was too high on Vazquez. If he didn't get Wolf & wasn't able to trade for Vazquez, I'm sure you'd be belaboring him for not getting any pitching. Not acknowledging the timeline really distorts things.

[Invader3K]

People are continuing to ignore that the Braves apparently had not interest in Corey Hart. Hart was terrible last year and his value has apparently diminished quite a bit in terms of how other teams view him. Yeah, it stinks, but maybe if he hadn't looked like an over matched minor leaguer at the plate in 2009, someone would have traded for him.

[hawing]

The Brewers could have easily beaten this offer without including Gamel.

Maybe, maybe not. If I had a SP to spare and the Brewers wanted to negotiate with me, I'd think about their pretty-well-known need for starting pitching and conclude that for that transaction, I'm in a seller's market.

[ninja33]

There are always excuses as to why we add mediocre talent like Wolf while an ace like Vazquez gets traded for a bunch of fluff. Melvin always takes the easy way out signing the average free agents like Wolf and Hawkins instead of making a trade to acquire a far better pitcher. This offseason has been a huge disappointment thus far and that likely wont change. We have marginally improved our rotation while we have weakned our lineup significantly by replacing Cameron with Gomez. I just dont see how this team is better right now than it was when we ended the 2009 season. .

I would agree that he is a good pitcher (and a great one last year)....but since when is javier vazquez an ace?

[joepepsi]

JVasquez career ERA: 4.19

RandWolf career ERA: 4.13

 

That is all.

 

Feel free to carry on with the ranting and raving.

[JoeHova]

People are continuing to ignore that the Braves apparently had not interest in Corey Hart. Hart was terrible last year and his value has apparently diminished quite a bit in terms of how other teams view him. Yeah, it stinks, but maybe if he hadn't looked like an over matched minor leaguer at the plate in 2009, someone would have traded for him.

 

Corey Hart 2009: .335 OBP, .418 SLG, 100 OPS+

 

Melky Cabrera 2009: .336 OBP, .416 SLG, 99 OPS+

 

If he looked like an overmatched minor leaguer last year then so did Melky. The year before that, Melky had a 68 OPS+. Hart was bad in 2008 too but not nearly that bad. Melky is probably a more valuable commodity because he's younger and a better defender but I don't think there is much difference. It would be great if Hart could be traded for even half the return the Yankees got for Melky.

[Funketown]

JVasquez career ERA: 4.19

RandWolf career ERA: 4.13

 

That is all.

 

Feel free to carry on with the ranting and raving.

I'm not going to criticize the Brewers for not getting Vazquez, but I think that oversimplifies it a bit. Vazquez was one of the best pitchers in the game last year, and probably projects as a 3.5 ERA guy. Wolf probably projects as a 4+ ERA guy next year.

[JoeHova]

JVasquez career ERA: 4.19

RandWolf career ERA: 4.13

 

That is all.

 

Feel free to carry on with the ranting and raving.

 

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with it but the reason a lot of people consider Vazquez significantly better than Wolf is that Vazquez's career FIP is half a run better than Wolf's. The disparity in xFIP is even greater.

[logan82]

Half a run of ERA over 180 innings is about one win.

[nate82]

We could have offered a package of Hart/McGehee and an A ball pitcher like Odorizzi plus a bullpen arm like Coffey and that would have been a far better package than what Atlanta received. Maybe Melvin did offer more than Hart but I just find it hard to believe that we couldnt beat this extremely underwhelming package. Melvin just seems to have no creativity whatsoever when it comes to improving this team.

The Braves were stated earlier in the offseason as having no interest in Hart at all and I doubt they would have had any interest in McGehee either. It takes two to tango. If the Braves were not interested in any players other than Gamel why should Melvin make a trade then? It doesn't really make any sense to trade away a player like Gamel for Vazquez when you are only getting Vazquez for 1-year.

[Invader3K]

If he looked like an overmatched minor leaguer last year then so did Melky. The year before that, Melky had a 68 OPS+. Hart was bad in 2008 too but not nearly that bad. Melky is probably a more valuable commodity because he's younger and a better defender but I don't think there is much difference. It would be great if Hart could be traded for even half the return the Yankees got for Melky.

That's all well and fine. It doesn't change the fact that the Braves apparently had NO INTEREST in Hart or anything else the Brewers probably had to offer.

 

Melvin can't force other teams to accept trades they don't want.

[Mass Haas]

If Melvin hadnt decided to spend 15 million plus on our bullpen we could have had enough money for two starting pitchers instead of one plus a extreme long shot like Mulder. I'm sure a deal with Hart/McGehee, Odorizzi and Coffey would have been a far better haul than what Atlanta recieved.

Well, if you don't like the $15 million bullpen, that means you wouldn't have Hawkins. Trading Coffey would mean no Hawkins and no Coffey. Hard to have it both ways.

 

That being said, it'd be nice to see John Axford pan out and more guys behind him that could be effective and cheap out of the pen.

[brains and braun]

I like DM as much as most posters on here, but you have to admit that it looks bad to see a player we inquired about dealt for scraps while we signed a guy who is obviously not as good. Do any of you believe we couldn't have matched the Yanks offer?

[trwi7]

Well, if you don't like the $15 million bullpen, that means you wouldn't have Hawkins.

That would be just fine with me.

[Invader3K]

$15 million = Hawkins and Hoffman, right? If we don't have them, who the hell finishes the games?

[trwi7]

Why does that matter? Hawkins + Wolf = $12 million or so. If we don't sign either we can trade for Vazquez. We could still have Hoffman in that scenario and we could've kept Coffey by adding another prospect or something.

[Invader3K]

Some of you should just admit you hate Melvin and are using any reason possible to bash him. Just admit it and set yourselves free and you'll feel a lot better.

 

These theoretical trade scenarios are getting silly.

[trwi7]

Some of you should just admit you hate Melvin and are using any reason possible to bash him. Just admit it and set yourselves free and you'll feel a lot better.

 

These theoretical trade scenarios are getting silly.

Who hates him? Just because we disagree with his moves means we hate him?

 

I'd rather trade for Vazquez, especially considering what it took for a few reasons.

 

1. It's only a one year deal. I'd rather have a veteran pitcher on a one year deal than a three year deal.

2. I think Vazquez is a better pitcher than Wolf.

3. Draft pick compensation.

4. With Suppan, Hall and Riske's contracts off the books next year, we would have a ton of payroll flexibility to do a bunch of things. With Hawkins and Wolf now taking $13.5 million in 2011, that flexibility is now much more limited.

 

But yes, it's all just hatred of Melvin. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

[Invader3K]

It's not just this thread. It seems like every move getting made lately results in a "Why the hell didn't Melvin go for this guy?", type of diabtribe.

[Ennder]

I sure would have liked to have added Vazquez instead of Wolf but I'm pretty sure Melvin already talked to the Braves and they couldn't come up with a deal so at some point he kind of has to sign one of the FA out there.

[RockCoCougars]

Melvin has done a lot of good for this franchise, but this offseason has been very frustrating. He needs to stop sitting on his hands and do something. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the Hardy trade even though it was a gamble, but everything else outside of the Zaun/Counsell signings has been questionable. I mean, come on, his underling was able to dump Carlos Silva for God's sake. Melvin needs to stop hiding behind his flimsy payroll excuse and start doing something. By the way, that excuse falls on deaf ears for me as he just shelled out 8 figures for a guy with questionable credentials who had no other strong suitors on the market. I think that Melvin could have waited back and found something much better with the added payroll flexibility he would have had, but I guess that money was just burning a hole in his pocket....

 

The first thing that he should do is get creative and deal Suppan. It could be done, but it will take some creativity and yep, gulp, salary eating. They were so quick to give Bill Hall away for nothing when he brought much more value to the team, if for nothing else playing several positions with adequate defense.

 

For Heaven's sake, get out there and find a good pitcher so this fanbase doesn't need to watch Suppan trotted out there every fifth day again.

[brains and braun]

I am a Melvin fan, but I don't like absolving him in this case based off of the assumption that a deal couldn't get done. We're only talking about a week or two. In that space of time, Vazquez went from unattainable for us to traded for odds and ends?

[pingman]

Do you really think the Brewers could of offered a package as good as the Yankees?

 

1) The Braves wanted salary relief so they could pursue a major free agent bat....they gained $9 - $10 million in salary relief...Cabrera is still relatively cheap with a projected 2010 salary of about $2 million ....I don't see Cabrera as much more than a platoon player in the Braves plans

2) Vizcaino was the Yanks top rated pitching prospect & #3 overall....would the Brewers be willing to trade that kind of prospect, assuming they had a young, hard throwing pitching prospect the Braves wanted, for a one-year rental?????? ....frankly the Brewers are lacking in top rated pitching prospects & can't afford to deal them away

3) Dunn is a 24 year old southpaw who throws 96-97 & has the highest rated slider in the Yankees farm system per Baseball America....sounds like a solid prospect to me....

 

....the reality is that this economy is hitting many teams hard making it hard to move high salaried players

[trwi7]

1. Casey McGehee. Probably just as good of a bat as Cabrera and cheaper as well.

 

2. Vizcaino is in A ball. Take your choice of Odorizzi, Peralta and Scarpetta.

 

3. Zach Braddock. A lefty who had the best rated slider in the Brewers' system, doesn't throw as hard (low 90s) but also has much better control (5.65 BB/9 for Dunn and 1.56 BB/9 for Braddock) and a better strikeout rate (12.15 K/9 for Dunn and 13.84 K/9 for Braddock.)

 

That's just as good of a package and probably better than what the Braves got.