Mike Cameron agrees to a 2 year, $15.5 million deal with Red Sox

[sheethead]

would you like Cameron at around $8M, or money spent in other areas?

 

Money spent in other areas. I thought Cameron was a decent CF for the Brewers, but I wasn't too attached. He seemed to disappoint me in big game moments more than he came through. He excelled in less tense moments of the game, but the "big hits" were too rare for me to latch onto him so much that I would take him over a SP or bullpen/experienced bench help. I know how some believe it doesn't matter when the production comes throughout the year, just so its there. But it does matter to me. I would take Wolf over Cameron at this juncture. The Brewers need pitching, not an aged CF.

[Invader3K]

I agree completely. Cameron just wasn't a luxury the Brewers could afford any more with the dire need to improve the starting pitching.

[Ennder]

I'd rather have Cameron at $8M than Hawkins + whatever weak SP we will end up signing with the rest of our money. Though I guess because we messed up and traded for Gomez there just wasn't any room.

[rluzinski]

If I'm trying to judge the value of a player's projected perfomance, one of the last thngs I care about is clutch performance from the previous year. It simply has little or no predictive value. If a fan wants to be objective, they need to accept that. If they just want to be a fan, by all means, hold a grudge. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Invader3K]

Can we at least give Gomez a chance to play before we say he was a mistake?

 

The mantra around here used to be, "These guys are young, they will take time to develop in all aspects of the game," since this team was built around draft picks. Now people are ready to say a 23 year old center fielder with tremendous speed and defense is a bust. I just have to shake my head at that. Give the guy a chance...a lot of Twins fans weren't happy with the trade either, and it's not just because Hardy had a down season in '09.

 

Look, Mike Cameron was a good player for this team, but he's going to be 37, and I feel, was starting to regress a bit both with his vaunted glove and his bat. Melvin made the correct small market move in letting him go. Same with Hardy. So many want to see the Brewers be like the Twins, but apparently many around here don't want to see Melvin actually follow their model of success. You can't have it both ways.

[sheethead]

I'm not holding a grudge, I just don't have many fond "Cameron saves the day" memories. A great catch robbing the HR in CF was my fondest memory of him from 2009.

 

Edit: to go with that catch I also have a memory of a ball getting by him and costing the Brewers the game. Give and take.

 

I won't argue his production value, but I will argue that the Brewers (as a small market club) have more pressing needs. Had Hardy not gone fishin' last year, maybe the Brewers could have gotten pitching for him.

[Ennder]

Now people are ready to say a 23 year old center fielder with tremendous speed and defense is a bust

 

I'm not calling him a bust, I'm saying trading for a CF instead of waiting and going for a SP was a mistake.

[logan82]

I don't remember anybody calling Gomez a bust. Several called him a really crappy hitter and great defender, which to this point he is, and thought we wasted our biggest trading chip on a position we could have just as easily filled from within instead of trading for our real need, pitching. I think Gomez is a better defender than Cameron and a much worse hitter even in optimistic projections.

[endaround]

Keep in mind that Hart + Hawkings=Cameron.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't remember anybody calling Gomez a bust. Several called him a really crappy hitter and great defender, which to this point he is, and thought we wasted our biggest trading chip on a position we could have just as easily filled from within instead of trading for our real need, pitching. I think Gomez is a better defender than Cameron and a much worse hitter even in optimistic projections.

Gomez' UZR/150 was only .3 higher than Cam's last year. Now it's obvious that Cam can be counted on to regress slightly, but how much, in all honesty? Cam was +10 defensively last year, is +5 still realistic? I think it is.

 

There's no way Gomez's bat covers even a portion of the difference. Keep in mind Gomez was -14.9 based on wOBA in less than 350 plate appearances. I surely hope he doesn't get even that many if he's that bad again this year.

[battlekow]

If we offered Cam arbitration, Cam might have accepted to spend another year here. I don't think DM had the budget to sign who he wanted to sign and also pay Cam's salary.

Obviously, but the point is that now we know there was interest from at least one team in giving Cameron a multi-year deal, and I don't think Cameron would turn such a deal down in favor a one-year contract with the Brewers, even though he would have earned more in that one year than he would in the first year of this Boston contract. Cameron knows how old he is, and that makes the second guaranteed year very important.

[DuWayne Steurer]

If we offered Cam arbitration, Cam might have accepted to spend another year here. I don't think DM had the budget to sign who he wanted to sign and also pay Cam's salary.

Obviously, but the point is that now we know there was interest from at least one team in giving Cameron a multi-year deal, and I don't think Cameron would turn such a deal down in favor a one-year contract with the Brewers, even though he would have earned more in that one year than he would in the first year of this Boston contract. Cameron knows how old he is, and that makes the second guaranteed year very important.

 

Had we offered him arby or negotiated an extension with him this might have never gotten to the point where other teams would have had a chance to get interested in him.

[battlekow]

Had we offered him arby or negotiated an extension with him this might have never gotten to the point where other teams would have had a chance to get interested in him.

Correct, which makes it a point worth debating rather than an obvious reality. I assume that after being offered, his agent would have called around and ascertained general interest for a contract near this level, but I could be wrong.

[RockCoCougars]

It was a no-brainer not to offer him arbitration. I have no doubt he would have accepted, and probably would have gotten in the $12 million range in 2010 based on his stats. No way would he have gotten that on the open market. Remember last year, Melvin had buyer's remorse after picking up his option for $10 million.

[endaround]

If Melvin had buyer's remorse he shouldn't be a GM

[RockCoCougars]

If Melvin had buyer's remorse he shouldn't be a GM

I still contend that the only reason that the option was picked up last year is that Melvin thought he had a deal in place with the Yankees for Cabrera. The Yankees left him holding the bag though when they wanted to force Igawa in the deal as well.

[snyttri]

?I still contend that the only reason that the option was picked up last year is that Melvin thought he had a deal in place with the Yankees for Cabrera. The Yankees left him holding the bag though when they wanted to force Igawa in the deal as well. ?

 

It seemed like that was a real trade negotiation but Melvin had to be satisfied with the contract too because he knew that if the trade fell through the market for high salary players would be small that off season.

[HiAndTight]

Can we at least give Gomez a chance to play before we say he was a mistake?

 

The mantra around here used to be, "These guys are young, they will take time to develop in all aspects of the game," since this team was built around draft picks. Now people are ready to say a 23 year old center fielder with tremendous speed and defense is a bust. I just have to shake my head at that. Give the guy a chance...a lot of Twins fans weren't happy with the trade either, and it's not just because Hardy had a down season in '09.

 

Look, Mike Cameron was a good player for this team, but he's going to be 37, and I feel, was starting to regress a bit both with his vaunted glove and his bat. Melvin made the correct small market move in letting him go. Same with Hardy. So many want to see the Brewers be like the Twins, but apparently many around here don't want to see Melvin actually follow their model of success. You can't have it both ways.

While I do not agree with you on the fact that Cam was starting to regress with the bat, or the glove, I completely and utterly agree with yu on the rush to judge Gomez.

 

Frankly, the kid should have spent another year at least in AAA, but he's an incredible talent and we bought him cheap, just as the Twins bought Hardy cheap. Worst case scenario, he's a #8 hitter in an NL lineup who gives you a great value defensively. Best case, he needed a change and will finally start to progress with the stick. Either way, he's 23. Lets hold off on calling it a bad move or him a bust. Heck, we've given Rickie several years(and I still believe he will break out just for the record). At least we can give Carlos ONE, right?

[HiAndTight]

Gomez' UZR/150 was only .3 higher than Cam's last year. Now it's obvious that Cam can be counted on to regress slightly, but how much, in all honesty? Cam was +10 defensively last year, is +5 still realistic? I think it is.

 

There's no way Gomez's bat covers even a portion of the difference. Keep in mind Gomez was -14.9 based on wOBA in less than 350 plate appearances. I surely hope he doesn't get even that many if he's that bad again this year.

I think there is a way. A 23 year old player with a world of talent moving to a new city and a new organization and realizing the talent that made him the centerpiece in a trade for the best pitcher in baseball.

 

Aside from that, we did also save 10 million dollars.

 

But either way, Melvin didn't trade for Carlos Gomez to assume his 2009 season. At some points in time, GM's have to take risks just as Dombrowski did last year on Edwin Jackson for example, a talented young pitcher who had gone through two org's without fully realizing his talent.

 

I'd always, always rather Melvin take risks on the types of talents that if they pay off could be big time star players rathre than consistently going to the scrap heap hoping a player can strive to be replacement level.

 

 

I understand why people are not in favor of Gomez. His OBP is just ugly. But that frame has the potential to add some power, and his skill set is that of a player with star potential. It's a big time boom or bust trade and frankly, the Brewers as currently constructed needed that type of player if they were going to have a real chance to surprise people next year and win 90 games. The needed that HOPE for a breakout star. AT least, at the very least he offers that(and a 10 million dollar savings).

[Mass Haas]

I'll post an archive later, but Mike Cameron's Boston press conference is at 10:30 CT Wednesday AM. Listen live here.

 

I'd imagine there will be a kind word about his time with the Crew mixed in.

[logan82]

It's a big time boom or bust trade and frankly, the Brewers as currently constructed needed that type of player if they were going to have a real chance to surprise people next year and win 90 games.

 

If the Brewers wanted to win 90 games in 2010 they needed to surprise peole and have a player like Cameron in CF. At this point, Gomez wishes he could hit as well as Jason Kendall.

[Postseason2006]

Hit as well? Considering Gomez had a better slugging % I don't think he wishes he could hit as poorly. His defense was better at CF than Special K's was behind the plate. Then throw in how much Kendall was paid and this conversation should end.

 

Cameron was a nice player who hit some meaningless homers but played good D.

[logan82]

Yes, Gomez to this point wishes he hit as well as Kendall. Kendall's has a better or close OPS with a higher OBP in the last 3 years.

 

Kendall

.301/.309/.610

.327/.324/.651

.331/.305/.636

 

Gomez

.288/.307/.592

.296/.360/.657

.287/.337/.623

[Postseason2006]

I am not going to disagree with what you are saying. The point I am making is that Gomez defense will be at least as good or better than Cameron's in CF and is a cheaper alternative when you throw in the fact that Zaun is now behind the plate. Kendall was a complete hack behind the plate last year and was just as horrid hitting. You think the bad pitching had anything to do with him too?

 

Throw in the fact that Gomez can run alot and I'll take my chances with the pair making less money allowing us to shore up the staff.

 

I still will never understand this board's fascination with Cameron nor will I.

[HiAndTight]

I am not going to disagree with what you are saying. The point I am making is that Gomez defense will be at least as good or better than Cameron's in CF and is a cheaper alternative when you throw in the fact that Zaun is now behind the plate. Kendall was a complete hack behind the plate last year and was just as horrid hitting. You think the bad pitching had anything to do with him too?

 

Throw in the fact that Gomez can run alot and I'll take my chances with the pair making less money allowing us to shore up the staff.

 

I still will never understand this board's fascination with Cameron nor will I.

It's not the boards fascination, it's just simple baseball.

 

Cameron was a fantastic defender, he hit for power, carried an OPS around .800 and got on base at a decent clip. There is no mystery here. Great defense at one of the most valuable defense positions+.800 OPS=a very, very valuable player.

 

Now with regard to the changes, I believe Gomez is going to surprise next year. I hope for a .285/.330 type line with better D than Cameron. There's little doubt he'll be a downgrade from Cam, but if he can minimize how big of a downgrade, the upgrades at C and SP'ing could allow for a large net gain.