Are we just cheap? Or cheap thinking?

[PilprinBuddha]

It seems like every time we speculate on the value of a player on the market, we seem to be about 2 mil off per year. Why is that?

 

Are we cheap thinking (like most of Milwaukee) or are we simply cheap.

 

I am referring to us as fans as much as the team itself.

 

Going into this off season, I was hoping for a bat and an arm. That is still doable. but it may cost us a bit more than we had previously hoped. Dave Roberts looks good, but fragile. The problem is, every player on the FA market that we will try to acquire brings baggage. That sucks but it is life. I am confident that we will add a few pieces and pray that the youngsters develope. Is that cheap, or smart? I am torn from day to day.

[Brian the Automator]

To snag a free agent, it would be necessary to overpay by about an additional 2M a year over what they get from a team that would qualify as a legit contender.

 

The problem is the risk... If you go out and sign a player that ends up taking up 20% of your payroll, and that player goes down, you're screwed.

 

I'd rather take players via salary dumps from other teams (i.e. Carlos Lee, Corey Koskie) than go overpay via the FA market... If the team were just one star away from being legit, I might think differently.

[brewmann04]

there must be a time when we can sign a big time fa i would think soon we have to be close to that one player away.The brewers talk about the future but the present needs to be addresseed.I think the Fans still comming out show thier support but it time for the brewers to show their fans something.

[JohnBriggs12]

Both.

 

"The Brewers talk about the future but the present needs to be addressed".

 

They keep talking about the future because there is always very little hope in the present. Today's present was yesterday's future.

[litesrn]

Supposedly the Stros have offered Carlos 5 years at $12 mil per?! Why would we choose to compete with such insanity? Other than Lee and Soriano, who is really out there in FA who isn't just another Dave Roberts? And why would you want a relatively low budget team to overbid on 2nd rate free agents? I don't get the supposition of the original post - why, again, would you suppose that not being stupid = cheap?

[brewmann04]

what i am saying is that they say from the beginning they can"t compete with the high price Fa,so that looks like to fans why even bother. the future needs to be the present very very soon

[backup catchers]

I think we sometimes get so stuck on what a particular guy is worth we lose sight of what our needs are. Free agents get their money because they are pieces the team couldn't get without paying for it. If we have a guy who is worth more than he's paid overpaying for a free agent to fill a need isn't a bad idea. If the Brewers had a $60 million payroll and only spent $50 because they didn't want to overpay a freeagent who would have helped but not been worth the total $10 is cheap. Not overpaying the same free agent because it would hamper the teams ability to pay for other needs isn't cheap. At this point the Brewers want flexability in the next couple years so a long term big contract isn't the smartest idea. Why pay Lee or Pierre just to lose Prince, Weeks or Hall two years form now?

[brewmann04]

how long have we heard about flexibility and the future,how much longer do the fans have to wait .

[aracko]

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Why pay Lee or Pierre just to lose Prince, Weeks or Hall two years form now?

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Thats losing attitude. If we build a winner, fans will come and revenue will increase. In turn we will be able to easily afford to resign Prince and Weeks and Billy Hall.

 

EDIT - actully that is to quote the thread title "cheap thinking" - note - I am not saying your thoughts are cheap.

[litesrn]

How about recognizing that we will never be in the Yankee/Cub mode as far as paying players? Why is it so hard for some here to recognize that we are fans of a franchise that will likely never be able to contest with the "haves" of MLB? This is why I wish that MLB adopted something that resembles what the NFL has had in place for years! MLB has made some steps toward leveling the playing field, but IMHO they aren't in the same vicinity as the NFL and the NBA until a true cap exists!

[splitterpfj]

I think people need to remember, the winter meetings are still a couple of weeks out.

 

Right now is the time when the biggest names fall, a lot of bad contracts are being handed out and a lot of headlines are being written....this is not the time when the Brewers have traditionally made changes.

 

It's silly to think that this organization does not have a plan, or to think that they don't realize they need to improve the roster. Doug Melvin knows what he's doing, there is simply no reason to doubt that. Would you want Gary Sheffield here, signed for three more seasons at huge money? He's 38, and coming off a significant injury...and he cost the Tigers three young arms....I would be very angry if the Brewers had made that move.

 

Would you want Soriano signed here for the next 200 years, at elite money, with a no-trade clause? Absolutely not, that was a horrible, horrible contract.

 

How about Jamie Walker for 11.5 million? You can't be serious.

 

The best way for this team to add talent right now is through trades, as it has been for the last several off-seasons. The plan is to build from within as much as possible, that is a necessity, and the Brewers are not alone.

 

If the Brewers do not make a significant move this winter, I will be upset. If the Brewers make a really stupid move, trying to like like tough guys, I will be much more upset.

 

When A-Rod, Manny, Hampton and Neagle all got those ridiculous contracts, the sky was clearly falling, the big spenders were going to bury everyone.

 

What, exactly did Texas get out of the A-Rod signing? They stayed right down there in last place, then moved him when they realized they had made an enormous mistake. What about Hampton and Neagle in Colorado? Where's the dynasty? Those were two of the worst contracts ever. Manny is the only one who has won a World Series since those deals, and you'll notice the Sox actually placed him on waivers a couple of years ago, and have entertained trade offers for him constantly over the last few seasons. Almost every time, the huge, eye-popping contracts prove to be a mistake, I expect this batch to be no different.

 

Ask me how I feel in three weeks.

[PilprinBuddha]

Are we as fans part of the problem?

 

We enjoy some of the cheapest concessions and tickets anywhere. We @#%$ every time prices are raised and we crab about the "rich"players and they should play for the love of the game.

 

We ask the owners of our teams to do everything possible to win, but are we willing to make the same sacrifice?

 

We still have some who complain about the tax to build the stadium. How much does any one person contribute? $20 a year? That would be the max.

 

I want the Brewerts to win. I want them to sign big name guys. But the truth is, I'm not sure how much I am personally willing to contribute to make it happen.

[brewmann04]

i guess you also have to have someone of trade Value

Jenkinks Not at his Salary

mench you must be kidding

 

but brighter days will be comming when the brewers current Tv deal runs out.

 

at least maybe our grandkids might see a winner

[Ennder]

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This is why I wish that MLB adopted something that resembles what the NFL has had in place for years! MLB has made some steps toward leveling the playing field, but IMHO they aren't in the same vicinity as the NFL and the NBA until a true cap exists

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If giving the Brewers an even playing field means making the game as boring as the NFL has become in the last 10 years then I'll stick with what we got now. They do need to work on revenue sharing a bit more, especially doing something about the bottom 3 or 4 teams and the top 3 or 4 teams.

 

As for the original question, a lot of FA's get overpayed every year. Its as simple as that. Spending big moneyr on a FA who wants a long contract and is most likely in his decline phase is the type of deal clubs regret in the long run. I would have no problems paying a Travis Hafner type guy(assuming he could play a lick of defense of course) the type of money that Soriano got because he'd be worth it. Soriano most likley is not worth it.

[MadisonBrewerBlue]

are we cheap ? would you spend $5 for a gallon of milk worth $1.19 ?

Melvin wouldn't

[foamboy1]

Or maybe the team leadership just isnt' very good?

[backup catchers]

Thats losing attitude. If we build a winner, fans will come and revenue will increase. In turn we will be able to easily afford to resign Prince and Weeks and Billy Hall.

 

You could sell out Miller park every game, double the TV and radio contract and it still would be dwarfed by NY, Boston and several other big markets. The fact is there are less people so there is less money. No matter how good the team no matter how good the ballpark unless you can figure out a way to import 25 million or so extra people or get the Brewers to become a national icon the team will never have the money the Yankees or Red Sox do. To keep a team of players who could make Soriano type of money will be more than this market can handle. Consider the fact that if Sheets, Hall, Weeks and Prince each make 15-20 million annually. That is 60 - 80 million for just them. If they are as good as we hope 15-20 will not be out of the question. If we can retain one or two and add good young talent we can be an Oakland or Minnesota type team. Giving out bad contracts to Pierre or whomever is a sure way not to even be able to afford one of them.

That said it Doesn't mean it's a losing attitude. In fact it is the only attitude that has a chance of not losing. Much like Oakland could lose an all star first baseman, shortstop and pitcher and still win year in and year out the Brewers can as well. The way to do it is not to view blowing money foolishly as being cheap. There are times to overspend a little. On a short term contract to fill a hole on a good team, or to lock up someone in an area that is difficult to replace like catcher. But those time are not here and those situations are fairly rare.

[aracko]

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Or maybe the team leadership just isnt' very good?

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I have questioned that myself quite a bit. Who exactly is this teams leader?

[Roscoe Chill]

Of course the Brewers don't want Jamie Walker at $11.5 million or Alfonso Soriano for the money he got. That doesn't make us cheap.

 

That's not the problem. The problem is because of those salaries, there aren't any free agents that fit in to the Brewers stratosphere whatsoever.

 

But there can be some trades made. Of course salary would need to be picked up, and of course...gasp...some minor leaguers might have to be dealt.

[Invader3K]

I think we've been damned to baseball mediocrity forever. We're never going to catch lightning in a bottle, and never going to land a big worthwhile free agent. We're the Cubs, but worse, because they've at least had a World Series championship, and at least spend the money on big players people recognize and pay attention to, even if the team is badly managed.

[Big Reed]

to answer madison blue's comment about buying a gallon of milk for $5 when it was only worth $1.19, I'd answer yes. I'm not about to start going from grocery store to grocery store just so i can get the lowest priced milk. And I'm not going to change my shopping habits and go on double coupon day either just so i can save $12.75 off my grocery bill. And i'm not going to the Cub foods to bag my own groceries and listen to the cashier tell me how much I saved. I'm going to go to the grocery store that I like, and I'm going to pay the prices they ask. there is a reason the milk was priced at $1.19. it's expiration date is probably tommorow. there is a reason the meat is half priced as well.

 

Are you going to waste 5 gallons of gas driving to three different grocery stores just to take advantage of each one's sale items? Go to kroger for their turkey; go to cub foods for their 12 pack sale; and go to Shopko for their milk? is that the type of people you are? As for me, give me one store with a lot of selections and hours that are convenient to me. And if the milk costs $5, it's worth it to me.

 

this is a quote from major dad of real GM. he generously allowed me to copy it:

 

overpaying for baseball players is kind of like buying a 12 pack of coke. the rich people don't complain about going to their upscale grocery store and paying $4.75 for that 12 pack. and the cheap clubs like the brewers go to Sams and buy that cheap no name cola that's on sale for $1.99 or they go to kroger and buy that K cola and believe it tastes good. the fact is Coke tastes good, and is the real thing, and you shouldn't belittle the rich for paying more for it. And when the rich go to their upscale grocery store, they are not going to bring 500 coupons with them in an effort to save money. Collecting coupons and buying K cola is what teams like the brewers do. on a grocery bill of $100, the brewers save $9.85, and end up with a bunch of inferior products. the grocery bill for the yankees is $150 and they also tip the bagger. You could make the analogy of where do Brewers buy their winter coats? Marshall Fields? or Burlington Coat Factory? there's nothing wrong with buying a coat at the Burlington Coat factory as long as you realize the coats on sale there are leftovers from last year's sales from real department stores. You also have to realize the merchandise /product will never be as good as buying from a real department store. and yes, Marshall Fields overcharges. but so what? That's their right. the same applies to the Yankees. they overpay their players. that's their right. I doubt anybody here would tell their employer he is owverpaying you and you don't deserve that raise. george is just trying to keep his players and their families happy.

 

thank you major dad for that analogy.

 

I'm begining to think it's not the brewers who are cheap, but rather their fans. brewer fans are the type that search the internet for hints to their electronic games rather than going to the bookstore and paying for the hint manual. brewer fans probably copy church music rather than buying sufficient copies. brewer fans tape movies to VCR tapes and discs rather than going to the store and buying the original version. brewer fans probably copy software rather than giving microsoft its due. brewerfans buy their clothes at walmart rather than macys. I bought a dell laptop wit h all the bells and whistles. the brewerfan would have gone with the $499 model. brewer fans learn how to spell and use a dictionary verses incorporating a spellchecker on their websites. (after saying that, I noticed the spellchecker link is now gone) brewerfans buy things on ebay. modular wausau and national homes are great as are particle board kitchen cabinets. brewer fans settle for a window air conditioner rather than installing central air. brewerfans role down the windows of their car when they are hot rather than waste gas and run the air conditioner. brewerfans buy cars based on their mpg ratings rather than their oeverall quality rating. brewer fans save the excess cheese waste and sell it as cheese curds rather than just throwing it away. nowhere except wisconsin can you find cheese curds, and wisconsin is no longer even the biggest dairy state. You won't find cheese curds in California or New York. brewer fans build additions onto their homes rather than selling their homes and building a new one. brewerfans finish their basements rather than buying a bigger house. Garages become family rooms. brewer fans vote for people who promise no increased taxes. Fiengold proposes legislation to keep campaign spending down, and brewerr fans like that idea. Why should we care how much somebody spends to get elected? but we do! Why buy a new one when this two year old car is just as good? brewer fans change their own car oil. brewerfans go to George webb rather than Wendys. brewerfans give out bubble gum and dumdums on halloween rather than chocalate candy snickers bars. brewerfans believe in wearing hand me downs. the brewerfan carries his own luggage in his hotel on vacation rather than have a bell boy do it. the brewerfan uses a calculator to figure out the restaraunt tip, and doesn't pay a penny more than 15%. The waitress looks at the $2.19 tip left on her table, and realizes it must have been a brewer fan. why pay more, when you can payless payless shoes is a very popular store in brewerland. Their shoes are crap, but people keep buying them. Going out to dinner means going to taco bell. a fancy dinner means Shakeys pizza parlor or olive garden. brewer fans have never eaten at Mortons in Chicago.. Why go to a place like that when you can go to krogers, and grill a steak on your backyard grill? brewerfans drink beer and water from their kitchen sink.

 

While you may not agree with all of my generalizations, I believe you can agree that many of the things i've said are very accurate about people who live in Wisconsin and are native to the state. it's not you of course, but you know somebody in your neighborhood that fits my description to a T.

 

The Brewers are simply a mirror and representation of their fan base. I've been to New York City and LA. their teams are very representative of their fan base. their fan base is rich and expects a quality product, and doesn't mind paying for it. and that's what the Yankees, Lakers and Knicks provide them.

 

it's ok to be cheap. What is irritating is people who moan and complain about it. Does the guy who lived on the other side of the tracks whine and complain about being poor? or does he do something about it? My old neighbor and his sons still live in that single wide trailer in that trailer park. I got an education and got out. I'm not exactly rich, but when I go to grocery store, I don't have to look at the prices of the stuff I buy. I don't go down the isle with a calculator in my hand. I don't comparison shop. I just thank the cashier and tip the bagger.

 

I can't believe the number of posts by brewerfans saying a player is overvalued, or that team paid too much. Do yo u do this in real life too? Did your neighbor pay too much for that snow blower, or did he get a good deal? do you actually go to your neighbor and ask him where and how much he paid for his new car, and then tell him he could have saved $200 if he went to place you know about? if you do, you are cheap! one huge gigantic tightwad. What are you going to do with all this money you've saved? spend it on an urn for your ashes? or spend it on a platinum casket with a lot of flowers?

 

I think a few of you need to go down to the store and buy a pair of hat and gloves and donate it to your local charity. and when you go to store, don't look at the price tag. buy because it looks nice, or because it looks warm.

 

wh t you do with your life should not revolve around how much is this going to cost me!

[backup catchers]

You've got the wrong senario Big Reed. If you have to put together a company picnic and are given half the money another person gets to do the same thing but whom ever puts together the best party gets promoted. In that senario are you going to pay more at an upscale gocery store for the same product because it's easier or closer to pick up on your way home? No you would get the best value for your dollar. If you had the choice of buying coke and not have money left over for hot dog buns or buy generic soda and get buns as well which is the better way to go? It's the same with small market teams. They simply don't, and never will, have the same budget. Yet they are expected to put out a comparable product. It is possible to do. It just takes smarter shopping and coupons.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[splitterpfj]

If I walked on a car lot and found a car that should be priced at 22K sitting there for 34K, I'm gone, no need for the sales guy to walk out there. If I found out later that someone had paid 34K for that car, yes, I would be apt to say "holy crap." That's not cheap, it's intelligent.

 

True, if someone else feels like the car is worth 34K, they have the right to buy it and get on home. I hope the Cubs and Dodgers like their new cars, but from my perspective, I consider the Cubs to have a slight lead over the LA for the Winter '06 Holy Crap Award.

[trwi7]

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I've been to New York City their teams are very representative of their fan base. their fan base is rich and expects a quality product, and doesn't mind paying for it. and that's what the Knicks provide them.

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Anybody else want to take this one or do I have to?

[jwill535]

Not the exact quote but from Billy Madison

 

"at no time did you come close to anything that could be condisdered coherant, we are all now dumber for listening to it."