McClung, DiFelice and Rivera non-tendered

[LouisEly]

No one loved being a Brewer or a major leaguer more than McClung. Myself and the Rev. Series Finale attended a game in SF and got to go down under the stadium near the clubhouse where the Brewers walked through to get to/from the dugout. There were only a couple of us there, but Big Seth stopped and talked to a couple who had a small child for a minute or two. I thought they might have been related, but it seems like that is Seth's M.O. Class acts like you Seth will always have a place in our hearts.

 

You know, for all us grunts out there in the middle class working 40 hour weeks, guys like this are a whole helluva lot easier to follow than some players

 

Big Seth is just carrying the torch started by Gorman Thomas, passed on to Rob Deer, handed off to John Jaha, picked up by Jeromy Burnitz, snatched by Brooks Kieschnick, and owned by Russell Branyan. Now we need another working class hero carry it on.

 

Ennder hit the nail on the head. But lots of guys with better numbers than him are being non-tendered; in fact, it seems like no one is being offered arby at all. I think the economy is hitting teams really hard and they are looking to cut costs any way they can, and if that means saving a million by non-tendering someone to find a replacement that isn't quite as good they will do just that.

[LouisEly]

They non-tender McClung but keep Carlos "Boom Boom" Villanueva? ::shakes head::

 

Sorry, but if you throw out the 3-4 appearances before he went on the DL McClung was a better relief pitcher than Villanueva. I know for the most part that for starters "Losses" are an irrelevant statistic, but I think that they have a fair amount of relevance for relievers. Villanueva as a reliever had more blown saves (5) than saves (3 - two of which were against Pittsburgh), and almost as many losses (7) as holds (9). The guy folds under pressure. I'm not saying that McClung is great, but he's better than CV.

[Oldcity]

McClung isn't better than Villanueva. It's not even close.

 

McClung career numbers: 5.40 FIP, 5.46 ERA, 1.58 WHIP, 1.24 k/bb. That's basically a minor league pitcher.

 

CV's career numbers: 4.53 FIP, 4.30 ERA, 1.31 WHIP, 2.43 k/bb.

[twobrewers]

I just can't trust Villanueva.

 

He might be the streakiest relief pitcher I've ever watched. He can go 10 games without giving up a run - and then go the next 5 giving up 3 runs.

 

I'm not surprised by Villanueva, Bush and Gerut - but considering some of the players not offered contracts (Atkins, Olsen, Condrey, Redding, Capps, Cust and MacDougal) I wouldn't have been been surprised if they had been granted their free agency.

[Flood Pants]

I hope they can swing a hand-shake agreement for DiFelice to return on a minor league deal, like they did with Capuano. I'd love to see him have a chance to make the team again in 2011.

[Ennder]

Villanueva has a career 3.96 ERA as a RP with 2.87 K/BB and a .685 OPS against. Just don't try to turn him into a starter again and he is a fine RP for the team. I still don't get all the hate for Bush, he got hurt and pitched poorly because of it. If he is healthy he is our 3rd best SP and worth whatever contract he is likely to get. He is a better option than most of the FA left out there who would be willing to sign as cheap as he'll be. Gerut is well a 4th OF and he can play CF and he is left handed, so he fits the team need pretty well.

[logan82]

Villanueva as a reliever had more blown saves (5) than saves (3 - two of which were against Pittsburgh)

 

Blown saves are only relevant for players who are closers all year. You are likely to see the same thing from almost any reliever. Every reliever is put in a situation to blow a save whenever they are put in a game with a 3 run or less lead with no chance to actually get a save.

[trwi7]

They non-tender McClung but keep Carlos "Boom Boom" Villanueva? ::shakes head::

 

Sorry, but if you throw out the 3-4 appearances before he went on the DL McClung was a better relief pitcher than Villanueva.

You can't just throw appearances out.

 

These are the stats for each player. Villanueva as a reliever for his whole career and McClung as a reliever only with the Brewers (his numbers would look a lot worse if I put in his numbers with Tampa Bay.)

 

Villanueva - 222.2 IP, 7.88 H/9, 3.96 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 3.03 BB/9, 8.69 K/9, 3.86 FIP

 

McClung - 108.1 IP, 7.89 H/9, 3.82 ERA, 1.49 WHIP, 5.48 BB/9, 6.98 K/9, 4.56 FIP

 

Villanueva is just a better pitcher than McClung and he's going to be cheaper. Simple as that.

[BrewCrewForever]

Very happy they tendered Bush. If he is healthy he is a fine #4 and close to a #3. But he has to be healthy and revert to his 2nd half of 08' form and pre line drive off elbow 09' form. Looks like Kottares or Lucroy will be Zaun's backup and I am fine with that.

[LouisEly]

Blown saves are only relevant for players who are closers all year.

 

He was the closer for the first four weeks until Hoffman was healthy. During that time he blew two of his three save opportunities.

 

Villanueva is just a better pitcher than McClung and he's going to be cheaper.

 

Villanueva had seven losses as a relief pitcher last year. That means that seven times he was handed the ball with the score tied or the Brewers leading and he gave up the winning run. The guy cracks under pressure. Last year as a reliever with RISP he had an ERA of 14.02; in 17.1 IP with RISP he gave up 28 runs/27 earned, and walked 14 while striking out 13 with a WHIP of 1.62 and an OPS-A of 0.769 (according to MLB.com). While McClung's ERA with RISP wasn't great at 8.50 (not sure I entirely trust how they calculate that) and had a slightly better 10BB to 12K ratio, his WHIP was 1.22 and OPS-A was 0.655 which was far better than CV. Yeah, Villanueva might be a better pitcher with the bases empty; yeah, McClung might walk more batters, but McClung did a much better job of getting out of the inning without damage than Villanueva. So to say that Villanueva is just a better pitcher is very debatable, especially considering that one of the main jobs of relievers is to come in after the starter or other pitcher lets a couple of guys on base.

[The Truth]

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I'd rather have McClung than Suppan as the #6 starter long relief guy, and I'll go further on a limb and say I'd rather have Seth McClung on the Brewers than have Ken Mcha as a manager

[TooLiveBrew]

Villanueva had seven losses as a relief pitcher last year. That means that seven times he was handed the ball with the score tied or the Brewers leading and he gave up the winning run. The guy cracks under pressure.

 

I know you know what small samples are, you just seem to ignore them oftentimes. Villanueva is what he is, a decent MR with FIPs & xFIPs in the low to mid-4s. MR production fluctuates a lot from year to year, so I'm sorry but talking about 17 IP here & 10 there while neglecting to talk about how things like strand rate & BABIP jump all around just doesn't tell you much about a reliever. I don't think the Brewers should just be looking to cut Villy loose like some seem to suggest, but I also don't think he's valued as an essential member of the bullpen.

[Ennder]

Marioano Rivera lost 6 games in 2001, 5 in 2006 and 5 in 2008. Hoffman lost 6 in 1993, 5 in 1996, 7 in 2000, 5 in 2002, 6 in 2005, 5 in 2007, 6 in 2008. Those guys crack under pressure. Not that I disagree with you, CV tends to walk too many in high leverage situations, it is just that looking at losses is such a bad methodology for discussing the issue.

 

CV should be used in MR, not as a setup or closer.

[jimmyjeromehardy7]

My two favorite Seth moments, the Friday game vs. the Cubs already talked about but my wife and I were in Cincy in May 07 and it started to sprinkle as Seth was signing autographs before the game and he asked a kid if the rain would stop and the kid said 'i don't know' and Seth guaranteed the rain would stop, then added 'it's not going to rain forever' Just seemed like a down to earth guy that loved the fact he was playing baseball and getting paid to do it. Best of luck Seth!

[iluvlamp]

Just in case he reads...Thanks Seth. The memories you gave me in 2008 were worth it:)!! Good luck.

[LouisEly]

so I'm sorry but talking about 17 IP here & 10 there while neglecting to talk about how things like strand rate & BABIP jump all around just doesn't tell you much about a reliever.

 

As far as strand rate goes, for their MIL careers CV has inherited 47 runners and 14 have scored - 30%. McClung has inherited 35 and 8 have scored - 22.9%. Last year Villanueva was only given 8 runners to inherit and two scored, whereas McClung was given 22 inherited runners and only four scored. Villanueva had more appearances too because of the time McClung spent on the DL, so that tells me that Macha felt McClung would do a better job of stranding runners than Villanueva because he put McClung in that situation a lot more.

 

I respect the stats you post, however my biggest concern is the eyeball test - McClung has gotten better each year (look what he had done before being forced to start) where Villanueva seems to be getting worse, a la Hart. Perhaps now that the "book" is out on Villanueva it is getting easier to hit him, where McClung's stuff is good enough to get guys out even if they know what's coming. Who knows. Like others have said, I just don't trust Villanueva.

[dadofandrew]

If McClung can stay healthy, he can be a very solid asset to any team. He was very good when healthy the past two years.

[thebruce44]

I respect the stats you post, however my biggest concern is the eyeball test - McClung has gotten better each year (look what he had done before being forced to start) where Villanueva seems to be getting worse, a la Hart.

I am not going to say Villy has been better, but the eyeball test for me on Seth says just the opposite of what you posted. He had a decent string of games before starting ERA wise (he wasn't forced BTW, he wanted to start), but it also coincided with a BABIP around .235. He was never a very successful pitcher outside of a few key innings here and there. It is also very difficult to say he has been getting better when he really only pitched 2 seasons for us, and the last one was mostly terrible.

 

All that said, I am sad to see him go because he seemed like a likable guy.

[RockCoCougars]

I'd have rather seen McClung kept over Villanueva as well. Even in the bullpen, this team doesn't have enough pitchers that can blow a fastball by somebody. Obviously he and Macha didn't see eye to eye, so he's gone. Doesn't make sense, but not much the team is doing these days does.

[endaround]

McClung can't blow a fastball by anybody because he has no control. He stunk last year after basically being replacement level reliever the year before. His K/BB rate 1.03! His HR/9 was 1.60. He hasn't ever been good outside of 12 innings for Milwaukee in 2007.

[TooLiveBrew]

Like others have said, I just don't trust Villanueva.

 

What average RPs do any fans really 'trust'? Villy will have a strong season in the near future, and will probably have another bad one in the near future. McClung's control problems have always been his roadblock. It's what keeps him from being a valuable pitcher. Whether people trust CV or not, he's been the better pitcher without question over the two guys' careers.

[Thurston Fluff]

What average RPs do any fans really 'trust'? Villy will have a strong season in the near future, and will probably have another bad one in the near future. McClung's control problems have always been his roadblock. It's what keeps him from being a valuable pitcher. Whether people trust CV or not, he's been the better pitcher without question over the two guys' careers.

 

Excellent points. Villy may not impress or instill trust but he has been as consistent as most middle of the road relievers. That is why I am happy we got Hawkins. There just aren't a lot of consistent year in and year out relievers in the league.

 

I'd like to thank McClung for his time here and his contributions to our great playoff run. Without those we may not have gone to the playoffs. I wish him well and hope to see him land in a good situation. His very classy twitter showed how real men handle tough situations in their careers. I wish him nothing but the best

 

I think we might see DiFelice again on a minor league deal. No brainier to non tender him though.

 

Rivera was just not worth more than league minimum and I'm glad we didn't waste resources on him. It is telling we had two managers think a light hitting 100 year old Jason Kendall playing 150 games was a better option than Rivera catching at least a league average number of games for a backup catcher. I hope he catches on (no pun intended) because he's one of those guys who fought hard into his 30's to get a shot and I respect that. He just wasn't good enough to warrant more than league minimum.

[Mr QL]

I'll miss Big Seth. I'll always liked him from the time we traded for him. I'm disappointing we're letting him go.

[RockCoCougars]

He hasn't ever been good outside of 12 innings for Milwaukee in 2007.

I disagree, he was very good during the stretch run in 2008 and he was pretty solid for the first half of last year. Most of his bad numbers came from his starts.

 

The frustrating thing for me is that he seemed willing to accept a non-roster invite and the Brewers shot it down, most likely due to politics. You can't have enough pitching and arms like his are rare. Stupid move if you ask me.

[thebruce44]

RockCoCougars, my previous post discussed why I don't think he was solid for the first half of last year. If you take out those overachieving innings, he was pretty much a replacement level pitcher during his whole stint here, and he wasn't trending in the correct direction.

 

Add in the fact that his control is his biggest weakness. The one thing the Brewers needed last year was a guy who could eat up innings and throw strikes. Seth completely failed in that regard. There just isn't room in the bullpen for a guy who is going to nibble on purpose or because of poor ability and it seems like that is the quickest way to get on your coaches badside. Sad to see him go, but it was a no brainer to me.