Any chance of stopping the constant comparisons to Suppan?

[BREWCREW5]

I am by no means trying to "police" the forums here but every starter that is talked about here, someone compares to the signing of Suppan.

 

We all know that the Suppan signing was not a good one. Every starter out there is not "Suppan 2.0" and "Suppan Lite".

 

Wow.

[davego]

Ok, how about Jeffery Hammonds or for you ond-school fans; Roy Howell?

[RockCoCougars]

I think comparing things to Suppan is relevant. Many of us here do not believe payroll is best spent for aged mediocre starting pitching in free agency. For us, this signing is a little frustrating because it seems that the team did not learn it's lesson from the Suppan deal.

 

I remember the absolute glee from a majority of posters here 3 Christmas Eves ago that "we got Soup", like he was the Brewer's Reggie White or something. True, hindsight is 20/20, but I was against that deal from the start. I don't think that overpaying for mediocrity in the free agent market is a prudent course of action. That said, I don't think that anyone is saying that Wolf is as bad as Suppan (no one is), but this signing has to be tempered by the fact that we are talking Randy Wolf, who no one else really seemed to want. The frustrating thing about the Suppan deal is that for whatever reason, he has a lot of apologists. Their excuses have gone from "he's doing what we signed him for" to "he's an innings eater" to "we have no one better to replace him with". Face the facts, Suppan is garbage... in my opinion, the worst free agent signing in team history. It's a little disheartening to see the team enter into another big deal with n 'iffy' pitcher when they are less than one year away from getting rid of Suppan forever.

[davego]

I'll admit that while I wished it was one year less, I was down with the deal. Again, it went back to the near desperation at that time for starting pitching...seems familiar.

[davego]

Over the history of the team, I say that re-signing Teddy might have been worse (not that I opposed it at the time), Hammonds made much, much less sense at the time. The dollars are way different now, but Roy Howell wasn't worth and Ben McDonald was really illogical given where they were "competitive wise" at that time.

 

I'll put those up as equal to worse then Soup.

[The Ignitor]

No way Teddy was a worse signing at the time of the signing than Suppan. Sure, with 20/20 it was horrible. But he was nearly as dominant as the Rocket at such a young age. But for the injury (which are usually difficult to predict), it would have been a solid signing of a young pitcher. At the time of the signing, he had 4 solid+ years, and one year of injury/mediocrity (I don't think it was arm related).

[joshjs]

I feel like we weren't going to sign a better FA SP than Randy Wolf, so at the end of the day, I got no complaints. Pretty sure the Milwaukee Brewers are going to have to overpay for free agent starting pitchers for the foreseeable future.

 

Wolf should be better than Suppan, and the contract is shorter. So people can cry Soup on this all they want, but it just makes 'em look dumb to me.

 

YMMV, of course.

[davego]

...that's what I thought I implied...20/20 hingsight, but Teddy was a killer.

[RockCoCougars]

Higuera wasn't a bad signing, actually a big coup (outbidding San Diego I think) at the time for a guy who was probably a Top 10 MLB pitcher. Too bad he got hurt. Was it a 4 year deal? Must have been, because I was at his last MLB game right before the strike in 1994.

 

I don't think the Hammonds deal was as bad as Suppan's because unlike with Suppan, the team stopped running him out there once they realized how bad he sucked. I've always considered the Hammonds deal to be the Franklin Stubbs signing with inflation.

[Tbadder]

I hope no one ever forgets the Suppan contract, and that it is constantly brought up. The first question anyone should ask (including Doug Melvin) is, is this a Suppan-like contract? I, personally, would get a "Remember Soup Contract" tattoo. I think a permanent billboard should be erected right outside Miller Park. When it isn't "trade young players for rentals day" it could be "sign aging free agent pitcher day". Or we could just call it "flush your future down the toilet day" and not have to worry about the confusion of alternating holidays.

[dadofandrew]

The irony to me is, if Suppan would have been shut down 2-3 starts earlier, his ERA would have been about 4.75ish, if memory serves. Now, of course he made those starts, so it's tough not to count them, but I'm inclined to think of him in the same way I did before, an innings eater whose probably a 4.75-5 guy. That's worth nowhere near what he makes, but it does have value, as very few teams have 5 SP's better, and if they do (Red Sox, Phillies), they are strong contenders.

 

Not many teams had their 30 bottom starts only be 5ish.

[brewjihad]

I think most of us here don't let 3 starts-- or even year to year fluctuations in a team stat like ERA-- change our evaluation of Suppan as a pitcher. His FIPs from the last two years have been 5.50 and 5.70. That doesn't really have value when a replacement-level FIP is generally considered to be around 5.5. Maybe Suppan has some ability to beat his FIP by a little bit, but Al, I think your point about pitching and bottom rotation starters is correct but I personally think that your evaluation of Suppan isn't.

[Invader3K]

Randy Wolf =/= Jeff Suppan.

 

That is all I have to further say on the matter.

[BREWCREW5]

Its clear to me that some people need to remember that we are fans of the Milwaukee Brewers. On a national level folks, most people would wonder why. I love the Brewers, dont get me wrong.

Free agents dont want to come here. We are going to have to overpay almost all free agents to come here. People want us to sign young, high ceiling starting pitching where their history is very healthy. Well, so does everyone else, including the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Mets, Cubs, to name a few. If you are from Cali, your whole family is from there and the money was even remotely close to what the Brewers were offering from a West Coast team, why would you sign with the Brewers?

This our lives.

[JonnyLungs]

I really don't understand calling Randy Wolf "mediocre".

 

What is the definition of mediocre? I've always understood mediocre to be average to below average. I look at Wolf's numbers over the years and I see average to above average.

 

Maybe I just have a different definition of mediocre.

[rluzinski]

I think Wolf will be a little above average next year but mediocre over the length of the contract. Mediocre to me means a little below average.

[sheethead]

Mediocre means average to below average or the trending toward either. Wolf is not mediocre yet, but he could be with a couple of uninspired years of pitching. Hopefully being away from home does not create an uninspired Randy Wolf.

 

The Suppan deal needs to be used as a benchmark for all future deals, in that Melvin better not make another one equally as bad or worse again as long as he is the Brewers GM.

[strawbossisevil]

As many have pointed out already. In comparing this signing to the Suppan signing.

 

Wolf is 1) a significantly better pitcher, 2) signed for less money 3) to a shorter contract.

 

To compare the two is bogus IMO.

[sheethead]

To compare the two is bogus IMO.

 

But you just compared them http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

He contrasted them! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[JoeHova]

I think comparing things to Suppan is relevant. Many of us here do not believe payroll is best spent for aged mediocre starting pitching in free agency. For us, this signing is a little frustrating because it seems that the team did not learn it's lesson from the Suppan deal.

I agree 100%. It's reasonable to compare Wolf to Suppan because, although Wolf is better than Suppan was, the thought process behind the signing is the same.

[homer]

I guess I'd like to know how mediocre is defined from a statistical perspective.

[JoeHova]

How would you define it? My dictionary says "of moderate quality", and then defines moderate as "average in amount, intensity, quality".

[thumperden]

I think we must remember the Suppan deal like the Alamo, just so it doesn't happen again. I know it was to show agents and future free agents that Milwaukee is putting their money where their mouth is as far as attempting to be a player in that market and to show they're making a concerted effort to winning.

 

Don't get me started on past big money contracts that have hurt too, but for different reasons, Sheets, Higuera, etc. Whom else am I missing? Oh yeah, Riske...(pronounced Risky).

 

I think mediocre statistically equates to near and around league average.

[endaround]

Please explain how the Sheets' contract hurt.