Why the reluctance to make Gamel an OF? Is it real or staged?

[JohnBriggs12]

This subject has been discussed for a couple years. Curiously though, despite the emergence of Casey McGehee at 3B, Gamels continued defensive issues and the Brewers declaring Casey their 3B going into 2010, the Brewer brass continues to insist they have no plans to move Gamel.off of 3B.

 

Personally, I think this is all bunk intended to prop up both his trade value and that of Corey Hart. Had they declared at the end of the season they'll will move Gamel to RF, instantly for trade purposes his value sinks. At the same time, announcing a switch to RF causes teams to question Hart's value as a player. If the Brewers are looking to replace Hart internally, why would they want him?

 

Now we are getting stories in the national media that the Brewers are likely to hang on to Gamel. Translation: nobody's come forth with a young stud pitcher Melvin thought he could get straight up for Gamel.

 

Question is, how soon if ever will the Brewers announce that Gamel will "get an opportunity" to "play some OF" in spring training? I'd say around January 15th myself, just in time for the big ticket selling push but after the prime trading season.

[Ennder]

I think Gamel is better defensively than people give him credit for and I personally think he sticks at 3B.

[chadomac]

I agree with Ennder, I think Gamel looked pretty good defensively during his short stay in Milwaukee, and I wouldn't give up on him at 3B unless he hit really well in AAA this year and Hart was struggling mightily.

[Oldcity]

Perhaps the Brewers aren't sold on McGehee long term at third. I know I'm not. Gamel's most valuable if he sticks at third, whether it's with the Brewers or in a trade.

[MessiahRp]

Stevo- I agree with you that I am not sold on McGehee as the 3B of the future, what about Taylor Green down the pipe? I don't know if he's any better than Gamel defensively but with him and Heether being around you would think they would see if Gamel is an option at other positions. (1B in case Prince leaves?)

 

Rp

[Roderick]

and the Brewers declaring Casey their 3B going into 2010,

Are you going from the below paragraph or was there something else Melvin stated? If it is from below, I don't think it is so strong a statement that Melvin is saying that McGehee is going to start regardless of how he looks in spring training. If McGehee struggles and Gamel is burning it up .....

 

McGehee's breakthrough "probably slows Mat's progress to the big leagues a little bit," Brewers general manager Doug Melvin said. "The big question with Casey McGehee is, can he carry over this year into next year? I keep saying that [Dodgers third baseman] Casey Blake developed late in his career, at 28, 29 years old. Is Casey McGehee Casey Blake?

 

http://milwaukee.brewers....p;fext=.jsp&c_id=mil

[paul253]

Gamel's most valuable if he sticks at third, whether it's with the Brewers or in a trade.

I've never liked these kind of arguments. Yes, his trade value is higher if he plays third base instead of the outfield, but if we move him to the outfield its because we aren't trading him, so what difference does it make? Has Ryan Braun's value diminished at all because he is no longer at third base? The quick answer is who cares because we aren't trading him. Gamel's value to the Brewers is highest if, wherever he plays, he allows the Brewers to put the 8 best position players on the field. We have a third basemen who is cheap and produced very well last season plus another top 10 prospect capable of playing third base very soon and very few outfielder prospects near the major league level. I don't see why at least trying Gamel in the outfield is such a terrible idea.

[endaround]

Braun's value didn't diminish because he was a terrible 3B. If he was even close to average yes his value would have gone down by moving him.

[rluzinski]

If Gamel can play league average defense at 3B or LF, he needs to play at 3B for some team in order for the Brewers to maximize his value. Typically those kind of shifts don't net much though, since the player will usually be better at the easier position. It depends on the player's skillset, I guess.

 

Either way, it's important for a team to try and place their players where their skillset can be best utilized.

[Invader3K]

I think the idea of Gamel moving to the outfield is kind of fan generated. Has he ever played any outfield at all? I'm not sure why so many on the internet are considering it a viable option. I guess because a lineup with both Gamel and McGehee in it in 2010 is probably better than one with Hart and Gamel or McGehee.

[JJHardy7]

I think Gamel is better defensively than people give him credit for and I personally think he sticks at 3B.

 

Agreed. I've said this many times and honestly try to stay out of these threads, but I don't think Gamel is as bad at defense as some make him out to be. I think he should stay at 3B...I think the more important question is whether or not he's traded...not really his position. I don't think his value goes up/stays the same if a team trading for Gamel thinks his defense is bad at 3B. Just because he's a 3B for the Brewers doesn't mean that every other team thinks so. In other words, I'm sure if there's a deal for Gamel whatever team is trading for him has seen Mat play quite a few times.

[dadofandrew]

Because a 3B that can hit has a lot more value than an OF.

 

Besides, Hart and Braun are entrenched in the corner spots, so there's no opening anyway. Also, once a guy is switched, they hardly ever go back to the more difficult position, so it's all but permanent.

 

Until a spot opens up at 1B/3B/LF/RF, they'll probably let him play 3B in AAA.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think the idea of Gamel moving to the outfield is kind of fan generated. Has he ever played any outfield at all? I'm not sure why so many on the internet are considering it a viable option. I guess because a lineup with both Gamel and McGehee in it in 2010 is probably better than one with Hart and Gamel or McGehee.

I agree that it's mostly fan-generated, but it's not like teams don't stick guys that can hit at corner OF positions if they don't stick at more premium spots. What gets me is when the 'Gamel to the OF' scenarios involve Braun in RF, which I think is just a horrible idea.

[FVBrewerFan]

dadofandrew wrote:

Until a spot opens up at 1B/3B/LF/RF, they'll probably let him play 3B in AAA.

I think there's enough ABs for him to come up with the team in April. With Weeks coming back from injury, they can move McGehee over there every 4 or 5 games. Plus, McGehee will need days of himself. I can see Gamel getting 2 or 3 starts a week, plus PH every game. And that's IF Weeks and McGehee are 100% and still on the roster. Gamel can also DH in the AL road games.

 

Now that Hardy and Lopez are gone, there isn't the big log jam in the IF and it should work itself out one way or another.

[logan82]

Weeks should be ready to go by the start of the season. At worst he will miss one game a series. That is what happened last time he had this injury on his other wrist. It took a year to completely heal, but he played most of the games until it did.

 

Seems like a bad idea to waste Gamel's service time to only have him play 2-3 games a week. If he isn't going to be starting 150+ games a year, he should be in AAA. Leaving him in AAA until the trading deadline should be about long enough to gain another year of service time. Doing that would seem rather odd though.

 

Did I miss something? Where was it stated that Lopez is gone? While I agree he is unlikely to return, it isn't out of the question that we could offer arbitration and have him accept.

[paul253]

Because a 3B that can hit has a lot more value than an OF.

 

Again, to me this argument only holds water if you are planning on using his value to trade him. If you have someone who is going to post the exact same numbers at third base or in left field, then yeah, you'd probably rather have him at third. But if you already have a third basemen and can upgrade your offense in the outfield, then you put him in the outfield. Corey Hart had like one half of a good season, so I don't think he's entrenched anywhere.

 

I don't really know how to explain my thinking about "value". I guess all I can say is I think you put your best 8 players in the lineup. I don't see why it matters what position they are playing as long as they can play it. 25 home runs is 25 home runs. It doesn't matter if they come from the third basemen, the left fielder, the catcher...whatever. Its all the same. I understand what the argument is....that a left fielder that can hit is easier to find than a third basemen that can hit, so if we keep him at third base he'll be worth more. But again, we already have a third basemen that can hit, and it doesn't matter what his "value" is to other teams if you aren't going to trade him.

[LouisEly]

I think they want to keep Gamel, and keep him at 3B as long as possible and try to wait out the defensive shortcomings, simply because he is a good LH bat and they need/want more "balance" in the lineup. If Gamel had even better numbers but hit RH he would definitely be traded by the end of the winter meetings.

[rluzinski]

Of course it matters what his value is to other teams. If you have something that is worth $100 to you and $300 to someone else, you'd be a fool not to aggressively pursue a trade. Even if you can only get $200 in return, you are ahead.

 

So your mistake is assuming that no trade is made. If a team has excess talent at a position, they need to at least try to trade away that surplus and receive fair market compensation. A GM's job is take all the value of his players in the majors and minors and turn it into the most wins at the major league level. Sometimes that demands a trade.

 

In reality though, you don't generally lose much moving a player down the defensive spectrum. A good defensive SS will often be a great 2B, which can somehwhat balance things out (Tango claims you lose nothing on average). But like I said, it ultimately depends on the skillset of the specific player. Ask the scouts.

[TheFyl]

I don't think the Brewers are the type of team that likes to move players around from their natural positions. Braun kind of slid to the outfield because his bat deffinately called for him to be on the field at all times. But so far, Gamel hasn't shown that same ability. So the Brewers are willing to bide their time and wait for signs that he is ready offensively before they change his role defensively.

[The Truth]

Gamel is potentially the Brewers' 1B in 2012, thus the increasing reluctance to trading him.

 

You don't announce moving Gamel to OF before trading Hart, because it hurts Hart's already declining trade value.

 

Either McGehee or Gamel should be able to play OF as well as infield, ideally, because that increases their value as a super-sub.

 

The Brewers aren't completely confident about Weeks' ability to play an entire season, nor are they super-confident about re-signing Counsell, thus a need for Casey to potentially play alot of 2B in '10

 

Those are all possible reasons. The most likely scenario is that, despite Casey's great season in '09, the Brewers aren't yet completely convinced that Casey is a better 3B long-term than Mat Gamel

[rousieboy]

I am surprised I have not read the answer yet...here it is...Gamel stays in the infield because CMG can play 3b and 2b. So when Rickie gets hurt...again...in 2010 Gamel will be much more polished at 3b. Some truth to the arguements of him eventually sliding over to 1B when Fielder moves on and value of 3B over RF...but he stays in one place to get ready to play 3B in 2010.

[Pudster13]

Here is the real answer:

 

Because Gamel profiles as a below average hitting RF or 1B.

 

He has the most value if he can stick at 3B, which I believe he can AND will.

 

 

 

Ideally, I think the Brewers need to trade Gamel for a similar valued starting pitching prospect.

[paul253]

So your mistake is assuming that no trade is made.

 

No, my entire argument is based on the idea that he is not going to be traded. I said if they move him to the outfield they are probably not going to trade him. I concede that if they are looking to trade him they should keep him at third base, but if they are not going to trade him then why not move him to a position where he can get in the lineup every day? And that brings me back to my original argument, which is if he is not going to be traded, why is everyone so concerned what his trade value is?

[clancyphile]

Lost in all of this is the fact that the Brewers have another 3B prospect who is arguably due for Nashville in 2010: Taylor Green, who is arguably more of a Cirillo-type hitter than a pure power hitter. Like Gamel, he bats left-handed..

 

Green is either trade bait OR he is going to end up at third down the road.

[trwi7]

Green isn't going to Nashville after the year he had in Huntsville.