JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

[endaround]

Again, he is arguably the best defensive CF in baseball. He plays defense at a rate which only a few can challange him at. Hes arguably the fastest player in baseball. He is 23 years old (going to be 24). He can develope into a better hitter. So saying "Carlos Gomez sucks" is not the correct answer

 

 

He is not the best defensive CFer in baseball. He's slightly better than Cameron can be expected to be next year.

[ELCABALLO45]

Gwynn Jr is 27 years old

So what?

 

Because age matters?

[thebruce44]

didn't read all the way through here, but people who think we are giving up a lot of offense (especially OPS) need to look at what JJ and Cam did last year vs. what Escobar and Gomez will do this year. Cam and JJ combinded for around a 330 OBP (mostly from Cam). Escobar and Gomez are capable of something similar and both players have a lot of upside. Factor in the cost savings, and while I don't like the trade, I don't hate it either.

 

What we need to do is look at all the players would be expected to do in the future not what they did last year. JJ had a down year and should be expected to hit better than he did in 2009. Why would we look at only JJ's terrible last year to make a decision on him while ignoring the fact that he is more than likely a much better hitter than he was last year. That makes no sense at all.

 

 

It makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that we had a top 5 offense with 3 black holes in the lineup last year (JJ, Kendall, Hart when he was off and Cam when he was off). If we can replace Kendall with anything, we have a similar offense as we have another top 5 offense, only an extra 14 mil and a lot of upside in those black holes offensivly and defensivly.

[trwi7]

So saying "Carlos Gomez sucks" is not the correct answer

It actually is because he hasn't shown he can be a good player in the majors. Now if he proves this year that he can be good, then people will stop saying he sucks. Right now though, the only thing he's ever done in the majors is suck.

[trwi7]

Because age matters?

 

So does performance and Gomez' performance indicates that he's a player who shouldn't be in the majors or at the very least not starting, yet he's going to be starting for us. That's a problem.

[Polish Falcons]

I'm fine with this trade. Or at least I'm not going to make a judgment until seeing which pitchers we get because this is only a piece of the puzzle. I'll give Melvin the benefit of the doubt. Over the past month he was probably shopping Hardy to the Red Sox, Blue Jays, Orioles and any other team We thought might be interested. He probably found that teams didn't really want JJ Hardy. Meanwhile Escobar is our SS, so why not salary dump and take a 23 year old guy who could have great upside if he can find control at the plate.

 

I first found out about this on mlbtraderumors.com and over there the response was way different. Majority seemed to think that this was a good trade and a lot of American League fans seemed happy to know that Gomez won't be patrolling center field in the AL anymore. Some Twins fans were upset about it.

 

Cam would've been nice to have back but realistically I didn't see the Brewers signing him And two starting pitchers. After doing the math it just didn't add up.

[nate82]

As for swapping Gomez with Cam, it obviously projects to be a huge step down from Cameron's 2008 performance but:

 

1. We probably shouldn't expect Cam to be as good as he was last year.

2. We have no idea what it would have taken to keep Cam here.

 

Still, Cam is easily worth a couple of wins over Gomez, projection-wise.

Cameron would have cost at least the same as Abreu maybe even a little bit more but not much more. So I believe Cameron would have been looking for a 2-year deal around $18-20m and that is before taking incentives into consideration.

[Dragonbait]

It is WAY WAY WAY WAAAAAAY too early to be saying this is a bad trade....

 

The ONLY way to tell is in 360 or so days.

 

I prefer to be the optimist.... Cuz I still have something to look forward too.

[MJLiverock]

No kidding endaround. This whole "if Gomez improves a lot he will be good" idea is pretty odd. Of course if he raises his OBP to levels he has never even sniffed he will be good why do people even post that sort of nonsense. If Jeff Suppan puts up a 3.00 ERA he will be good too but I'm not going to hold my breath for it to happen.

 

Younggeezy:

Cain is around the same age and is still considerably behind where Gomez is right now. Defensively and even offensively even though Gomez still has to develop much more

 

 

Cain has just as much time to develop since as you state they are the same age. Thier minor league OBPs are pretty similar other than Cain's injury riddled season last year and Cain hits for more power while probably not being as good defensively. Like I said earlier, in 2 years Cain might well be the exact same player.

[Mr QL]

A Top 10 prospect that two teams got rid of. Maybe if we're lucky some other team will still believe in his "potential" in a year or two. I don't believe he'll ever amount to anything.

[ELCABALLO45]

So saying "Carlos Gomez sucks" is not the correct answer

It actually is because he hasn't shown he can be a good player in the majors. Now if he proves this year that he can be good, then people will stop saying he sucks. Right now though, the only thing he's ever done in the majors is suck.

In baseball, unless your a DH you play on offense and defense.

 

Gomez had a replacement value at 20.5 in 2008 and a replacement value of 11.6 last year.

 

So saying Gomez sucks would be incorrect

[Brewbadger]

Lots of disappointed female fans in Brewer nation today. Facebook is blowing up with whiny status' (for those involved in the facebook game).

[brewcrew7]

I am fine with the trade as well. Reading thru this thread is migty tough. I have no idea what people were expecting the crew to get but they are putting JJ's value much higher than it should. From the reaction in here you would think we were expecting a top notch player for him.

 

Teams know that we wanted to get rid of him and he had an awful year. We were not in the best position. And one thing that really got in the thread. People are thinking JJ is so good but then are ripping Melvin for not knowing the right time to deal him. So what your saying is that JJ is a good player but Melvin was supposed to know that he was going to suck? Geesh. Must be easy to sit and say all this stuff after the season. However Melvin has to do it while it is going on.

 

I think we did just fine here and got a young player and saved some money. We had no use for JJ so what were we going to get? But Weeks, Escobar, and Gomez could do some damage on the bases if they can get on base. Should make it interesting at least.

[yoshii8]

A Top 10 prospect that two teams got rid of. Maybe if we're lucky some other team will still believe in his "potential" in a year or two. I don't believe he'll ever amount to anything.

I wouldn't exactly call acquiring Johan Santana and JJ Hardy getting rid of. Those are pretty significant trades.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'm fine with this trade - I think too many people around here are trying to factor in J.J. Hardy from the 07, 08 seasons and completely discounting his pathetic 09 year to say the Brewers got jobbed. Gomez isn't going to hit 25 HR a year like Cameron, but he's still young enough to develop into a good offensive player to compliment his excellent outfield defense and speed.

 

Gomez is 23 going on 24...J.J. Hardy's first significant big league experience came at the same age - the additional value Gomez has with the amount of years under Brewers' control also weighs heavily with this trade, along with the significant cost savings that can be used for adding pitching to a staff that was horrible last season.

 

Hardy and Gomez are at two totally different stages in their careers - frankly, there wasn't a spot on the Brewers for Hardy to play in 2010, and his value was much less than many on this board assumed. To me, he's Bobby Crosby part two.

[Mr QL]

A Top 10 prospect that two teams got rid of. Maybe if we're lucky some other team will still believe in his "potential" in a year or two. I don't believe he'll ever amount to anything.

I wouldn't exactly call acquiring Johan Santana and JJ Hardy getting rid of. Those are pretty significant trades.

I'd say that the Twins got the short end of that deal, just like we did here.

[sheethead]

I don't believe he'll ever be a good player.

 

Wow, that takes balls. Hopefully for you he never takes that step up to elite CFer.

 

Ignoring the accuracy of your criticism, the distribution of production for a player over a season has little effect on his overall value.

 

You're right, statistically. But if a player is going to put up 75% of his overall production in a short time period, then spread the other 25% over the remaining much larger time period, there is no way that player has an equal effect on wins as a player that spreads their production more evenly throughout the course of the season.

 

Of course if we are talking about .229/.302/.357 with 11 HRs in 414 ABs, then then it doesn't matter when that production occurred. Its just bad all year long.

[MJLiverock]

I am not suprised most fans of other teams think this is an OK trade. Both guys in my office who are fans of other teams said the same thing. Their reasoning and I quote, "Isn't Hardy terrible? I mean he hit like .220 last year" One guy added that "isn't Hardy one of the worst shortstops in baseball?" And the increasingly popular, "Gomez? Wasn't he who the Twins got for Santana? He must be pretty good."

 

Granted these guys are Cubs and Cardinals fans but you get the drift of what other baseball fans know about where Hardy fits in the realm of shortstops. Two guys who root for Theriot and Khalil Greene think Hardy is worse.

[FVBrewerFan]

They were never going to get a good arm for Hardy. Gomez is about all I expected, a young position player wth potential. There's not a big demand for adequate defensive SS that go into severe slumps for months on a regular basis.

 

Gomez looks like a case of being called up too early, and he's having to work it out at the MLB level. It's a low risk/high reward type of move. Exactly what this team needs to do. If he's a bust, didn't cost you much. But if the guy can play a great CF and raise his OBP, you have a nice player. I did notice he cut down his SO in half 2009 vs 2008. Maybe that's the fisrt sign of better things to come?

[endaround]

I don't believe he'll ever be a good player.

 

Wow, that takes balls. Hopefully for you he never takes that step up to elite CFer.

 

Ignoring the accuracy of your criticism, the distribution of production for a player over a season has little effect on his overall value.

 

You're right, statistically. But if a player is going to put up 75% of his overall production in a short time period, then spread the other 25% over the remaining much larger time period, there is no way that player has an equal effect on wins as a player that spreads their production more evenly throughout the course of the season.

 

Of course if we are talking about .229/.302/.357 with 11 HRs in 414 ABs, then then it doesn't matter when that production occurred. Its just bad all year long.

 

But .229/.287/.337 at a more offensive position is worth getting excited about!

[Oldcity]

He is not the best defensive CFer in baseball. He's slightly better than Cameron can be expected to be next year.

 

No, he's better than what Cameron was LAST year, and Cameron lost a step from 2008. It's reasonable to expect him to lose a bit more in 2010.

[endaround]

He is not the best defensive CFer in baseball. He's slightly better than Cameron can be expected to be next year.

 

No, he's better than what Cameron was LAST year, and Cameron lost a step from 2008. It's reasonable to expect him to lose a bit more in 2010.

 

Gomez' UZR/150 10.0. Cameron's UZR/150 10.3. So no.

[rluzinski]

Fanhouse reaction to the trade... http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/11/06/j-j-hardy-traded-for-carlos-gomez/

 

Still, he's only going to be 24 on Opening Day, 2010, and the Brewers can plug him into center field in place of most-likely-departing Mike Cameron. Gomez makes much more sense for the Brewers than Cameron anyway, considering his age and the fact that the Brewers already have enough power. They need table-setters. If Gomez can find a way to work his OBP up to the .350 (or more) range, he'll be a very valuable cog in the Milwaukee lineup.

Any analysis that concludes a team has "enough" of something is absolute garbage, IMO

[MJLiverock]

didn' see it yet so here is the article on fangraphs about the trade

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/hardy-to-the-twins

[logan82]

It makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that we had a top 5 offense with 3 black holes in the lineup last year (JJ, Kendall, Hart when he was off and Cam when he was off). If we can replace Kendall with anything, we have a similar offense as we have another top 5 offense, only an extra 14 mil and a lot of upside in those black holes offensivly and defensivly.

 

No, it doesn't. Yes we were a top 5 offense this year, but we also had career years from Fielder, Braun, and McGehee. Those guys should be expected to get at least a little worse to go along with replacing 2 guys with expected worse offense and a minimal defensive upgrade. That makes our offense worse overall.

 

I didn't expect to get a pitcher that would help us this year for JJ, but I expected to get at least a good player.