JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

[Invader3K]

I think part of the thinking with Prince was that he couldn't really learn much more in the minors, and I think organizations like to get their players "acclimated" to the big league club environment. Anyway, judging by Fielder's career so far, I think it's hard to argue that he was mishandled in any way. Results are what count.

[Ennder]

So Gamel was up for 57 games before September callup time and got 141 PA and people are up in arms about it. Fielder was up for 29 games before September callup time and got 34 PA. Still not seeing a big difference here.

 

As for Weeks, I don't think you are obligated to bring up any prospects after just 249 PA in AAA regardless of their stats, especially one that is defensively deficient and working on it still. Not to mention the fact he did not destroy AA in any way shape or form the previous season.

[splitterpfj]

I'm happy to see Gomez in the Brewers' organization, I like his physical skills that much. The thing is, he's shown nothing that makes me think he's ready to hit in the big leagues right now. OK, he may have been rushed up the ladder, and last year he found himself on the bench in Minnesota, so perhaps he does better this year with regular playing time, etc - but no one can be sure of that, his OBP hasn't been weak, it has been terrible to this point.

 

Teams guess wrong sometimes, maybe Gomez will come back to haunt the Mets and the Twins...Jason Bay was traded three times as a minor leaguer - once, with a second player - for Lou Collier. Even so, until he proves he can reach first base, I'm going to hold to my, "The Brewers finally got their Juan Pierre, Dave Roberts fast guy" conclusion.

 

Yes, Gomez has more power potential than those players, I completely agree with that, but so far this is another guy who can run like the wind, but who's OBP is entirely linked to the number of base hits he gets...which limits his greatest asset, which is his fantastic speed. In addition, to this point, Gomez has been caught stealing on 26% of his attempts...to truly maximize those legs, that also must improve. If you're getting on base 29.6% of the time, and you're being caught stealing 26% of the time...your speed is not helping your team nearly as much as it appears to be in the highlight reel.

 

The potential is there for certain, a former major leaguer recently told me Carlos can hit it out to right-center, so yes, there is some pop in that bat...but you've got to be able to reach first base...a career OBP of .296 is just plain embarrassing.

 

Carlos, at a combine workout, I think any scout in the world would recommend you immediately...I'm rooting for you, but you've got to sell me.

[brewmann04]

i was curious was Prince brought up and used almost exclusivly as a ph

[JJHardy7]

So Gamel was up for 57 games before September callup time and got 141 PA and people are up in arms about it. Fielder was up for 29 games before September callup time and got 34 PA. Still not seeing a big difference here.

 

Gamel struggled with the lack of playing time...that was pretty clear IMO. And at the time Gamel was called up there was an 'opening' at 3B. The Brewers called up Prince for different reasons.

[Fatter than Joey]

The thing is, he's shown nothing that makes me think he's ready to hit in the big leagues right now.

 

Exactly. I am not sure what Gomez has done for people to expect he will have the starting CF job given to him.

[Ennder]

Exactly. I am not sure what Gomez has done for people to expect he will have the starting CF job given to him.

 

Played some of the best OF defense in all of baseball would probably be the reason.

 

His hitting improved last year as well, even if the slash stats don't show it.

 

Thats not to say he won't play his way out of the job though.

[thebruce44]

So Gamel was up for 57 games before September callup time and got 141 PA and people are up in arms about it. Fielder was up for 29 games before September callup time and got 34 PA. Still not seeing a big difference here.

 

As for Weeks, I don't think you are obligated to bring up any prospects after just 249 PA in AAA regardless of their stats, especially one that is defensively deficient and working on it still. Not to mention the fact he did not destroy AA in any way shape or form the previous season.

If you don't see a difference between 57 games and 29 games, then I think you are just sticking with your opinion no matter what other information is presented to you. We will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of Prince being rushed. Same with Weeks.

[Ennder]

If you don't see a difference between 57 games and 29 games, then I think you are just sticking with your opinion no matter what other information is presented to you. We will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of Prince being rushed. Same with Weeks.

 

I could say the same from not seeing the difference between 2.5 PA per game and 1 PA per game. Gamel played half time while he was up, Fielder rotted on the bench as a pinch hitter. Just because my opinion is different than yours does not mean it isn't based on reasonable assumptions and I'm just sticking to my guns besides information saying I'm wrong. No such information has been supplied. Btw, I don't think Gamel was handled properly either. Just saying Fielder went through basically the same situation.

[sbrylski]

If you don't see a difference between 57 games and 29 games, then I think you are just sticking with your opinion no matter what other information is presented to you. We will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of Prince being rushed. Same with Weeks.

 

I could say the same from not seeing the difference between 2.5 PA per game and 1 PA per game. Gamel played half time while he was up, Fielder rotted on the bench as a pinch hitter. Just because my opinion is different than yours does not mean it isn't based on reasonable assumptions and I'm just sticking to my guns besides information saying I'm wrong. No such information has been supplied. Btw, I don't think Gamel was handled properly either. Just saying Fielder went through basically the same situation.

Fielder spent most of his time in the bigs after the minor league season was over. He didn't play because we had a good fan favorite who needed to hold his trade value.

 

Gamel was up at random times throughout the entire season, never really getting consistent playing time, despite having no obvious vet starter that needed to be playing.

 

They are quite different situations, IMO. Hardy was brought up too early. I don't agree about Prince. We should have saved a service year with Weeks, but that has nothing to do with player development - he mashed once he was called up. His wrist injury has nothing to do with the call-up.

[silversurferr]

They misused Gamel last year by getting him so few AB's when he was up. Of course, McGahee was on fire and getting most of playing time. In hindsight, they should have sent him down. Next year, they should start him or trade him. I would like to see him in RF.

[derflotr]

This trade has grown on me a bit...at first I was in the "that's it?" crowd, but it sounds like the guy is a fantastic defensive CF, which is just as important of a defensive position as SS in my opinion...if the guy can post a .320ish OBP with full-time ABs at the bottom of the order and limit the mistakes on the basepaths he'll be a big asset - not only for next season, but for many in the future. If Gamel is kept (or McGehee, I guess) the Brewers once again have very good, high-ceiling young talent in the lineup. They may miss Cameron's bat in the lineup but if it means the pitching can be improved it's worth the loss. And this creates great flexibility in the payroll considering what Cameron is worth and whatever Hardy would've gotten. I'm not really pulling for a John Lackey signing, but if there are no better alternatives it's a very realistic possibility.

[ELCABALLO45]

Fatter than Joey wrote:

 

Exactly. I am not sure what Gomez has done for people to expect he will have the starting CF job given to him.

Because no one is even close to matching him on defense in center, and its not even close.

[Ennder]

Fielder spent most of his time in the bigs after the minor league season was over.

 

This simply is not true though. The PCL season ended on Sept 5th in 2005. Fielder was up for 42 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 42 games he started in 5 of them. Fielder spent 37 games in 2005 as a pinch hitter or pure bench warmer for the Brewers before Nashville's season was even over. Gamel was up for 58 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 58 games Gamel started in 29 of them, he was used as a PH or pure bench guy for 29 games. Fielder burned up almost 1/3 of a season of service time to be a pinch hitter for a team that at best aspired to luck into a .500 record.

 

Even if you completely ignore the september callup time Fielder 'wasted' more games on the bench in 2005 than Gamel did last year. I guess it was just long enough ago that people don't remember it now.

[Klements Bratwurst]

After reading the majority of this thread, I thought I would reminisce on Brewerfan.net's thoughts on the big Santana trade in the winter of 2008. This thread in all six of its pages doesn't show much love for Gomez or general excitement for the Twins return package of Guerra, Gomez, Melvey, and Humber. Quite frankly, there wasn't much discussion about Carlos Gomez as stud prospect. Also, ignoring the other players, no one in that 2008 thread stated that Gomez is the centerpiece of the deal from the Twins perspective in their trade away of Johan Santana. Some people liked his AA and his AAA lines, as has been discussed in this thread. Others compared him to being a better player than Tony Gwynn, Jr, but less than Adam Jones (I agree).

Here are some of the Gomez related quotes:

"I don't think anyone is going to be mistaking TGJ for the 5-tool player that Gomez projects to be."

 

"That is selling things a bit short, looking at minorleagueball.com. Gomez is still considered a B to B+ prospect where Gwynn is more of a C to C+."

 

"And not to pile on too much, but comparing Gwynn to Gomez is really funny."

"Instead of trying to figure out who the Mets prospects compare the best to Brewers prospects, just look at their rankings according to BA:

#2 Guerra
#3 Gomez
#4 Melvey
#7 Humber

The Mets system isn't as deep as the Brewers, but taking ranking for ranking that's a package of Parra, Escobar, Jeffress and Brewer. The true equal value may lie somewhere in between, but it is worth noting that the Mets are giving up a pretty good dose of talent to acquire Santana.

However, none of them are truly can't miss, and none of them have significant playing time at the MLB level. The four prospects are much better than a couple of draft picks, but if I were a Twins fan I would be on the cranky side today. "

The last quote is from Colbyjack, and his quote about Gomez (and the other prospects) as players that are not "sure things" for the Twins seems to bear out in Gomez's 2008 and 2009 campaigns and I fear this is why they traded Gomez away realizing that he may never reach his potential.

I hope this isn't the case, and JJ surely isn't a sure win for the Twins either in this trade, but I thought it would be fun to look back to see if Brewerfan.net was "excited" in any way for the Twins "haul" from the Santana trade, specifically as it related to Carlos Gomez. I give you all credit for your consistency, but you weren't enamored with Gomez then, and are not now http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[MNBrew]

Exactly. I am not sure what Gomez has done for people to expect he will have the starting CF job given to him.

Played some of the best OF defense in all of baseball would probably be the reason.

 

His hitting improved last year as well, even if the slash stats don't show it.

 

Thats not to say he won't play his way out of the job though.

Ennder, you got one thing right for sure: Gomez's defense is unbelievable. He really is that good.

 

The thing is, Gomez's hitting DIDN'T improve last year. It got worse. He LOST the starting CF job because of his offense. If he had improved, he would've played much more, especially when Delmon Young DIDN'T produce much through July. How can you possibly suggest Gomez improved offensively?

 

When the Twins finally had Span starting in CF everyday, it was still Delmon Young starting everyday in LF. Gomez had clearly played his way OUT of the OF starting "rotation," if you will, that Gardenhire was forced to deal with all year since he started with 5 (at the time) starting-caliber OFs and 4 positions to share between them (3 OFs + DH). By the end of the year, there were 4 clear starters and then 1 guy who didn't deserve to start, and so he didn't: Gomez.

 

Anyone who pays attention to the Twins up here knows Gomez got worse last year. Even the Twins' Group Sales woman I deal with suggested when I called her Friday afternoon (to line up our groups sales purchase) that Gomez has great skills but can be a real knucklehead at times. That's pretty much common knowledge amongst attentive Twins fans.

 

All that said, I sure hope the guy does make improvements at the plate commensurate with his God-given talent & the level of his other skills (speed, defense). One September game I took one of my sons to, we got there early enough to watch a lot of the pre-game stretching/sprinting/catch down the LF line. Gomez was practicing swerving twist routes at devastating speeds. How fast this guy is is truly unbelievable. One thing that was indicative of the Gomez's failures to improve this year was that in '08 he had plenty of bunt singles, but this year the season was more than half over before he got his first bunt single.

 

Gomez has a little bit of pop in his bat. But he & his team are truly best served if he NEVER EVER thinks about trying to hit a HR for the rest of his life. Hopefully he doesn't suffer from the "headstrong & foolish" delusion about hitting with any power -- a combination that plagued Alex Sanchez & eventually earned him his ticket out of town.

[thebruce44]

Fielder spent most of his time in the bigs after the minor league season was over.

 

This simply is not true though. The PCL season ended on Sept 5th in 2005. Fielder was up for 42 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 42 games he started in 5 of them. Fielder spent 37 games in 2005 as a pinch hitter or pure bench warmer for the Brewers before Nashville's season was even over. Gamel was up for 58 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 58 games Gamel started in 29 of them, he was used as a PH or pure bench guy for 29 games. Fielder burned up almost 1/3 of a season of service time to be a pinch hitter for a team that at best aspired to luck into a .500 record.

 

Even if you completely ignore the september callup time Fielder 'wasted' more games on the bench in 2005 than Gamel did last year. I guess it was just long enough ago that people don't remember it now.

No, I remember it quite clearly. When Prince was up the first time, he did play and was used appropriately. When he was called up half a month before Sept. callups, the Brewers said he had nothing left to learn at AAA so they thought it would be to his advantage to be in the MLB clubhouse. It didn't hurt his development in any way and didn't upset his service time. Completely different situation than Gamel.

 

You obviously don't see it the way I do and I didn't mean to imply you were wrong because you were disagreeing. I just don't think the situations are even close and I don't think Melvin has a history of rushing prospects at all.

[Ennder]

The thing is, Gomez's hitting DIDN'T improve last year. It got worse. He LOST the starting CF job because of his offense. If he had improved, he would've played much more, especially when Delmon Young DIDN'T produce much through July. How can you possibly suggest Gomez improved offensively?

 

His K rate improved, his BB rate improved, his LD% improved. His swing% at pitches out of the zone improved. The main thing that drove his bad season was a low BABIP which given his GB% and speed and improved LD% was just luck. His HR% was down a little as well but that is a stat that fluctuates a lot as well, especially when 1 HR can make such a huge difference given the sample. The slash stats don't always tell the real story over a small sample.

[BrewerBrent]

Has it been stated anywhere that the brewers are not going to offer Cameron arbitration? Is there really any downside to doing it other than the chance that he accepts? Cameron seems like a straight shooter and by now knows that CF in Milwaukee is not his job anymore. He's always said how much he's appreciated the straight-forward way in which Doug Melvin does business.

 

I'm wondering if it makes sense to offer him arbitration with a gentlemanly agreement for Cameron to decline thus resulting in the brewers picking up a supplemental pick. Is there any downside for Cameron agreeing to this, since being a type-B, any team that signs him won't have to forfeit a pick and he won't end up in a Orlando Hudson-esque situation

[filthyfrog]

I'm wondering if it makes sense to offer him arbitration with a gentlemanly agreement for Cameron to decline thus resulting in the brewers picking up a supplemental pick.

I don't think there has to be any sort of agreement between them. Melvin just needs to tell Cameron that he won't be the starter and that if he accepts arbitration, Melvin will try to trade him. No one would accept arbitration under those circumstances unless they had no chance of earning a similar salary elsewhere, which doesn't apply to Cam.

[thebruce44]

Plus, if Cam goes somewhere else, he will be looking for a 2 year deal. It doesn't make sense for him to take a 1 year deal when he wont play unless he just wants to stick it to the Brewers.

[BADGERJOBOB]

We didn't save $14 million by trading JJ for Gomez. We could of saved $8-10 million by simply keeping JJ and not signing Cameron. Gerut could man centerfield just fine. What we did was save whatever difference in salary between JJ and Gomez. Hardly a $14 million savings.

 

The problem that I have and most others have here is that if JJ could only get a no-hit, non walking centerfielder who has potential down the road, then why not package him with some other players and get a legit player in return? I would think everyone other than Braun, Fielder and Yo would be available for trade. Gomez in and by himself, is not going to make this team any better this year or next and now we have one less chip to trade for what we really need pitching since the free agent pitching market is hardly stellar.

[RobertR]

We had 2 shortstops and needed only 1. Traded one who got beat out for the starting job for a young starting CF with plus speed and plus arm. Taking out the fact that as a fan, I loved watching JJ play, it's a solid, solid move. Plain and simple.

That's also taking out the fact that Gomez hasn't hit a lick at the major league level, while Hardy put up a couple of seasons that put him among the top 10 offensively at SS as well as a plus glove. (Not 2009 obviously.) If Gomez improves, then yeah it's a justifiable move, but if he stays bad then they just gave away talent. That's not a solid move. You want to move talent for talent in this specific circumstance. Shortstop is not a position where there's a glut of talent around the majors.

 

For that matter, I don't like the idea that because there are multiple outcomes, each outcome is equally likely to happen. That's part of my rationale in not liking the deal. I think the most likely outcome is that Hardy bounces back to be valuable with the bat and glove and Gomez never becomes valuable with the bat.

 

Robert

[brewizard]

I think the team mishandled Hardy when he was rushed to the majors in 2005. Hardy flat out sucked in his first half a season, and we are all lucky it didn't ruin his confidence completely. Hardy did manage to turn it around the second half of his rookie year, got hot, and he showed flashes of his offense to come.

 

Hardy's second season, 2006, could have gone either way, but he was injured on a play at home in May. He only played a month and a half and never got hot.

 

2007 and 2008, Hardy was one of the core players of the team. He had cold streaks, but he had incredible hot streaks. He was the only player that stayed consistent at the end of 2008 - when the team seemed like they were falling apart - and he was one of the the only players on the team to perform well during the short playoff series.

 

Hardy was a very good player for the Brewers during that stretch.

 

But the colossal mistake in the general mishandling of Hardy was holding pat last offseason - by NOT either signing him to a long-term deal or trading him. Hardy's trade value was never going to be higher than it was last offseason. Either choice - trading Escobar or Hardy - would have been better than holding pat.

 

I do think Hardy's poor 2009 was related to the fact that the team wasn't committed to him. He had said he wanted to be a Brewer, but the trade rumors were swirling from the beginning of 2009, and people kept asking Hardy about it, and I think it messed him up. I think he played worried. And I don't think sending him to AAA helped his trade value.

 

And now, we have Escobar and Gomez. Like it or lump it.

 

I personally lump it.

[JohnBriggs12]

How bad a defensive CF must Jason Bourgeois be? He must be really, really bad, because he was released while they trade a guy 2 years removed from starting the All Star game for a guy who isn't nearly as good offensively as Bourgeois. Gomez is 6'4" 215 lbs and he's shown almost no power and no plate discipline.

 

About the only argument for him was that he hasn't produced because he was rushed through the minors. I hope he has an option left, because he needs a year at AAA in my opinion.

 

This one could cost several jobs including Melvin and Macha.