JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

[bobskube]

I'll pass on them all. I think the Brewers are thinking bigger splash. We will see.

Just curious if that is based on something you've heard, or speculation at this point? Are you thinking they go after someone like John Lackey, or possibly a big trade target?

No buddy...this is a pure educated guess. I think they will "kick the tires" with Lackey but I doubt anything comes of it. I am thinking maybe Halladay again or maybe King Felix deal. If I ever hear anything...I will let you know. The GM meetings start here in Chicago at the O'Hare Hilton and I know a couple of friends attending it. Maybe I can get some dirt early in the week. The meetings are shorter this year though so I think it will be more business and less drinking Bombay Sapphires at the bar like there usually is.

[1992casey]

As a reminder, please use the designated lineup thread for posting full lineups. It keeps discussion more on track.

[Hate those Rodents]

Can we even make a realistic package pitch for Felix without dealing Prince? I am guessing it'd have to be Gamel, Parra, Weeks/Lawrie, Salome/Lucroy, and JackZ's pick of any pitching prospect in the minors to have a shot.

[bobskube]

Anyone else bothered by this?

In an e-mail to the Free Press after the deal was announced, Milwaukee general manager Doug Melvin said he didn't contact the Tigers about Hardy because they didn't have what he sought in return. "I was looking specifically for a center fielder or pitching that was low (in) salary and low (in) service time," Melvin wrote. "I did not see a match so I did not call (the Tigers)."

http://www.freep.com/article/20091106/SPORTS02/91106058/1050/rss15

I have a feeling Porcello was not available.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gifhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[sbrylski]

Anyone else bothered by this?

In an e-mail to the Free Press after the deal was announced, Milwaukee general manager Doug Melvin said he didn't contact the Tigers about Hardy because they didn't have what he sought in return. "I was looking specifically for a center fielder or pitching that was low (in) salary and low (in) service time," Melvin wrote. "I did not see a match so I did not call (the Tigers)."

http://www.freep.com/article/20091106/SPORTS02/91106058/1050/rss15

I have a feeling Porcello was not available.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gifhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

We would have definitely had to add to Hardy, but he could have explored a trade for Granderson, about whom rumors of availability just won't die.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, and Granderson can actually hit *right now*. I'm disappointed the Brewers weren't able to add him instead.

 

 

I have no idea why so many people are so down on this kid before he even gets a chance to play. Again, he's 23 years old. He hasn't got consistent playing time since the begining of 08. The twins never sent him to the minors because they were afraid to send the "prize" of the Johan deal down. The Twins completlly botched the development of this kid. I think Brewer fans should know first hand what its like to watch a young top prospect sit on the bench and compelty ruin that players confidence and season. (Gamel).

The thing is, Gamel still showed that he could hit, until the Brewers made the mistake of sending him back to AAA. All Gomez has shown so far is that he's a very good defender that needs more work at the plate at AAA. I should say, though, that I appreciate you making that comparison about how they were handled, since that's important perspective to keep imho regarding Gomez.

 

 

The other thing is that while Hardy is a good defensive SS, Escobar is even better - like someone else said they improved defensively at SS.

This is a popular statement lately. The problem I have with it is that, as of today, it isn't true. Escobar will cover more ground at SS, no doubt, but that doesn't automatically make him a better SS. J.J.'s ability to convert balls he gets to into outs is really second to none in MLB. (I'm making that last statement in regards to skillset/ability... I didn't take the time to look up any data because I don't believe that's a controversial statement, in terms of skill).

 

I think Hardy will probably be a little better next season in terms of defense, but I'd expect Escobar to be close for the next year or two... possibly surpassing Hardy's defensive production as soon as 2011.

[thebruce44]

I think Hardy, Weeks and Fielder were all brought up before they should have been personally. I understand why they did it, but I still think they should have each spent about another half season in the minors.

Did you think this at the time or is this based on how they performed once they came up?

[Ennder]

Did you think this at the time or is this based on how they performed once they came up?

Hardy should have started the season in AAA given how little time he had spent there and the fact he was coming off of a major injury.

Weeks should have been brought up later in the season to help with service time issues and he should have been shut down when he hurt his thumb. Even though it was supposedly safe to play through the injury I don't think you want to take the risk with one of your young stars. It very well may have changed his swing mechanics for the worse playing that way.

I think the fact Overbay was our starting 1B should have kept Fielder in AAA where he could have played full time instead of just sitting on the bench and pinch hitting sometimes. If people think Gamel was ruined by not playing full time I'd imagine their heads would explode if they went back and looked at Fielders 2005 game log.

 

Even at the time I thought that we were making moves to get fans in the seats and not to maximize what we got out of our talent. Like I said I can understand why they would do it, building a fan base is a big part of turning the team around. I still think they rushed things a little bit too much.

[strawbossisevil]

Here's how I see it. There was no way we were going to be able to afford to keep Cameron and upgrade in pitching in a significant way. On top of that you have Cameron likely regressing. Adding Bowden who had a 2-1 K/BB rate last season in AAA would not be very good. I think he tops out as a #4/5 guy in the majors.

 

Word out of Minnesota is that Gomez has shown signs of being more than a mere slap hitter. He's shown great power in BP, but so far that power hasn't appeared in the games. He's young though, and there seems to be a lot of hope that eventually it will show up. As Ender pointed out, the trends from last season speak to improvement. And when you consider that he had a very unlucky BABIP last season, we are buying low on him. Yes, we all wanted more of a sure thing, but if Gomez is able to put it together in the next year or two, we could have a very good center fielder.

 

I think this team, while they may not admit it, is really looking forward to 2011 to make a big run at the title. I think it's possible that they make a go at a Lackey with the money they saved, along with an injury risk pitcher (Sheets, Bedard, Harden etc.), but even with pitching like that, I just don't see how we are going to make the playoffs next year. I think it will be a year where we bring in a lot of youth, looking for a 2011 payoff (which should also coincide with a huge influx of young pitching). Next year our offense will be adding a lot of young bats who are going to need a season of seasoning: Gomez, Escobar, Gamel, Salome, Lucroy, Weeks (getting back to where he was before the injury) . Our team is going to be full of high potential guys next year (you can add Parra to that list), and if a couple of them step it up, who knows, maybe we'll even compete.

 

I think the idea of having Gerut platooning with Hart is brilliant. I think that would work out very, very well and would be a huge offensive upgrade in RF from last season. That upgrade would likely make up for some of the offense lost going from Cameron to Gomez.

[Boy Jeenius]

We had 2 shortstops and needed only 1. Traded one who got beat out for the starting job for a young starting CF with plus speed and plus arm. Taking out the fact that as a fan, I loved watching JJ play, it's a solid, solid move. Plain and simple.

[TheCrew07]

What specific pitcher would've been available? I don't think anyone knows that answer...

It's not about a specific pitcher, it's about "no pitcher". Look at all of the assets Melvin has moved over the last 3 seasons, where's the long term pitching solution? Every single time he makes a move it's the same posts on both sides. The simple truth is that he hasn't made a single move on the trade front with any long term SP solution as the end result. He's done absolutely nothing but sign retread FA pitchers and acquire rentals... way too think outside the box Doug.

 

I called my shot on this a long time ago, my biggest fear is that Melvin would waste the tail end of the first wave treading water with FAs and reject pitchers waiting on the young arms to make it to the show, I've seen no evidence to the contrary thus far. He keeps trading for bats, and traded our best trade pieces for a rental bat, rental pitcher, and a CF that has some upside but is a definite downgrade from what we had. Again if Gomez was the plan, then why not just go with Cain or Schafer? Neither one is going to hit very much next year (regardless of how much I personally like both guys), both play good defense, and neither one would have cost the team anything to acquire.

 

To me this is very black and white and it has nothing to do with Hardy's value vs Gomez value vs Cameron's value or any of that other stuff.... it's about pitching. If the end game here is to free up salary to sign more averagish, over the hill pitchers then I've simply had it with Melvin. He would have repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't have the guts to put a good enough package together to go after a young arm that could make a difference.

[Weirdos19]

If Gomez hits .250, we don't lose much at all in center. Sure Cam hits more HR's, but if Gomez gets 500AB, he'll have 15 triples. Is there really that much difference?

Umm, Gomez is a career .246 hitter (close enough to .250) and has 12 triples in 1,017 career at bats. So no, he won't have 15 triples in 500 at bats. And yes, there is a huge difference in the offense of Cameron and Gomez.

 

Well, he can definitley get to 15 triples in Miller Park. Heck, Counsell had 7 or 8. And his stolen base skills and superior baserunning will make a difference. Cam got thrown out on the bases numerous times this year.

[thebruce44]

Did you think this at the time or is this based on how they performed once they came up?

Hardy should have started the season in AAA given how little time he had spent there and the fact he was coming off of a major injury.

Weeks should have been brought up later in the season to help with service time issues and he should have been shut down when he hurt his thumb. Even though it was supposedly safe to play through the injury I don't think you want to take the risk with one of your young stars. It very well may have changed his swing mechanics for the worse playing that way.

I think the fact Overbay was our starting 1B should have kept Fielder in AAA where he could have played full time instead of just sitting on the bench and pinch hitting sometimes. If people think Gamel was ruined by not playing full time I'd imagine their heads would explode if they went back and looked at Fielders 2005 game log.

 

Even at the time I thought that we were making moves to get fans in the seats and not to maximize what we got out of our talent. Like I said I can understand why they would do it, building a fan base is a big part of turning the team around. I still think they rushed things a little bit too much.

Hardy I agree with, but I think Melvin knew the fans were just sick of "Hollywood" Royce Clayton at that point.

 

Service issues with Weeks? He was brought up after that wasn't an issue and was OBPing stupid at AAA. I am not sure what the thumb issue has to do with him being brought up when he was.

 

As far as I remember, Prince came up only for interleague games to pinch hit during his minor league season. Next season he was given the starting spot, but I don't remember him ever sitting on the bench in the majors. When else would Overbay have been moved?

[danzig6767]

I'm going to hope for the best that Gomez shows some progression as a hitter given his age, but i have a bad feeling about how this whole offseason is going to shake out.

 

If the catcher spot isn't fairly significantly upgraded, we could be looking at tons of out making between the C/SS/CF/P spots in the order and it's hard to expect Fielder to repeat his fabulous season. I'm not going to sit here and punt next season before it starts, but i really really hope Doug doesn't make some mistake on a FA pitcher with long term ramifications in his desire to win next year given the current makeup of the roster.

[JJHardy7]

If people think Gamel was ruined by not playing full time I'd imagine their heads would explode if they went back and looked at Fielders 2005 game log.

That's not even close to what happened with Gamel...I do agree though Prince's situation was bad though. I still think people fail to realize just how bad calling Gamel up was this year...it was handeled poorly. It was handled so poorly...that I really think Gamel is dealt in the off-season...they clearly don't have a plan for him.

TheCrew07...I agree with a ton of your thoughts. You're one of the better posters here. My thought here though is that posters may have been expecting WAY TOO much for Hardy. I go in the in-game chats on occasion and I think I was in one of my few in July and a poster flat out told me that trading JJ for Buchholz wasn't enough for the Brewers...so my point is what should they have dealt for? I've gone on record more than a few times that I felt the 'value' for JJ here was way too high...same with some Corey Hart trade thoughts here...I really enjoyed JJ and following him in the minors and such...the bottom line is it didn't work out. That's why I posed my question....what did you expect that is actually legit?

I know I really wish some team would've traded us some pitching stud/prospect...but that wasn't going to happen IMO. I do like the fact that the team is really turning this into a huge cost savings...IF it works out http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[jhart05]

By removing Hardy and Cam's salary and freeing up that money, didn't they essentially just trade for some pitching?

[sbrylski]

By removing Hardy and Cam's salary and freeing up that money, didn't they essentially just trade for some pitching?

Not only that, 10 runs scored equals 10 runs saved. I don't care how we produce a positive run differential, as long as we have one.

[trwi7]

By removing Hardy and Cam's salary and freeing up that money, didn't they essentially just trade for some pitching?

Like I said before, it depends on what pitching they get. If they spend that money on guys like Washburn and Davis, I think the team downgraded. If they get a Lackey or a Harden or someone like that, a guy who's already good or has been very good, then I can understand it and I'd be okay with it.

[Ennder]

Prince Fielder was up for the Brewers from mid June until early July. He started just 5 games in almost a month of time and sat on the bench and PH the rest of the time. He then came up again in mid August until the end of the season and only started 2 games that entire time. He was in the majors for 58 games, over 1/3 of the season and got 62 PA in those games. I don't see how that isn't worse than what happened with Gamel this year.

 

Service issues with Weeks? He was brought up after that wasn't an issue and was OBPing stupid at AAA. I am not sure what the thumb issue has to do with him being brought up when he was.

 

I would have made him a september call up and started his clock the next season. We weren't playing for anything that year and I like to give players a full year in AAA before they come up. The idea is to create a solid window to win in, not rush your young guys up as fast as possible to push for win #75. I think they were too aggressive with all of them.

[igor67]

Going backwards a ways in the thread ILUVDaBush, I was not trying to have it both ways I was making very different points about the two players (Hardy has more value then given credit for, and when projecting we have to replace Cameron's actual production). I don't generally dispute the notion that Escobar is a good bet to match or Exceed JJ's overall production last year.

 

It is entirely possible I am wrong about Gomez, but he falls directly into exactly the kind of high risk high reward prospect that needs to prove his way up the ladder and not just be handed promotions and be lauded with fluffy scout speak. All of these guys are supposed to "develop power later" and "learn the strikezone" and "are showing signs of more power in BP". Now maybe Melvin really has his pulse on the market and has decided that his only chance to get over the hump is to roll the dice and risk having a team that falls below .500. I can respect that he looked rationally at his current options and decided that his choices of potentials deals across the board and ways to improve for next year were all mediocre looking. I don't believe that at this point, but it's a possibility. I wonder if he can find a way to land Zambrano with this windfall?

[Team Canada]

To me this is very black and white and it has nothing to do with Hardy's value vs Gomez value vs Cameron's value or any of that other stuff.... it's about pitching. If the end game ere is to free up salary to sign more averagish, over the hill pitchers then I've simply had it with Melvin. He would have repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't have the guts to put a good enough package together to go after a young arm that could make a difference.

In fairness to Doug, he did almost get King Felix last year, which would have been amazing.

[endaround]

Based on what? That was never going to happen. The Mariners have no reason to move Hernandez. He almost had Peavy.

[JJHardy7]

Prince Fielder was up for the Brewers from mid June until early July. He started just 5 games in almost a month of time and sat on the bench and PH the rest of the time. He then came up again in mid August until the end of the season and only started 2 games that entire time. He was in the majors for 58 games, over 1/3 of the season and got 62 PA in those games. I don't see how that isn't worse than what happened with Gamel this year.

 

How many September games was he up? 25+? I think if you take that into account it's a different scenario IMO. At the time Gamel was called up there, 3B was somewhat of a question. We knew 1B was Lyle's job when Prince was called up. I will agree it wasn't handled the best way, but I just think that the Gamel thing was worse than Fielder. Maybe expectations for the team had something to do with that as well?

[DHonks]

I'm going to view the offseason in its totality. That is, if these moves (no Hardy and no Cameron) free up $12-15 million to sign 1-2 pitchers, then I think the trades are effective.

[thebruce44]

Prince Fielder was up for the Brewers from mid June until early July. He started just 5 games in almost a month of time and sat on the bench and PH the rest of the time. He then came up again in mid August until the end of the season and only started 2 games that entire time. He was in the majors for 58 games, over 1/3 of the season and got 62 PA in those games. I don't see how that isn't worse than what happened with Gamel this year.

 

Service issues with Weeks? He was brought up after that wasn't an issue and was OBPing stupid at AAA. I am not sure what the thumb issue has to do with him being brought up when he was.

 

I would have made him a september call up and started his clock the next season. We weren't playing for anything that year and I like to give players a full year in AAA before they come up. The idea is to create a solid window to win in, not rush your young guys up as fast as possible to push for win #75. I think they were too aggressive with all of them.

And half of Prince's time in the bigs that season was as a September call up. Are you contending that it would have been better for his development to sit at home on his couch than on the bench in MKE for 29 of those 58 games?

 

And if you leave Weeks in AAA OPSing around 1.100, you are going to have an upset prospect on your hands. He hit his way onto the team just like Braun did. For all the press on Hardy being sent to AAA to gain back a year of service time, I think it would be even worse to leave a player who is destroying AAA pitching down there just to get an extra year of service for a bad team.