JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

[AdvantageSchneider]

I don't like the move, but I'll see what else Doug has going before I get too worked up.

 

Do you know what we need to acquire now? Those Japanese groundkeepers from Major League so they can curve Miller Park's IF so all of Gomez's bunt attempts go fair. If I see some of those dudes working at MP this winter then I know Doug's got a good plan.

[bando1234]

Let me start out by saying I cant make up my mind on this trade. I have read all 18 pages(some posts I skimmed) I have read some scouting reports on Gomez & I checked the web. I keep on reading about how great Gomez's defense is. I noticed he had 8 errors his rookie year. Maybe a fluke. Has an above average arm. I was trying to think of a comparable hitter & one that came to mind is Mariano Duncan. Looks like he does better at the end of the lineup than a leadoff hitter, which could probally be said of Escobar too.

 

I feel if Bowden was availavble he may have been the better choice. I think eventually this trade could be a wash but we may not see the upside for a year or two.

 

The biggest thing that bugs me- I feel we have a manager & a GM who are not on the same page. Our GM wants our young guys to play but our manager likes the crafty vets. Our GM wants some speed in the lineup but our manager does not want to utilize it.

[Tbadder]

I don't like the move one bit. While I believe he'll be a better defensive player than Cameron he's never really hit/OBP, so I can't see him significantly improving--a leopard cannot change its spots. If I was going to take a risk I would have opted for a high ceiling A ball or AA pitcher for JJ.

 

I'm one of those guys who can't see the Crew really contending next year and had hoped the Melvin would have concentrated on maximizing our draft status. But he's turned down the chance to pick up a #2 for Cameron, and that will hurt as well. I'm wondering if the suggestion that JJ would've been non-tendered also means we won't offer arby to Lopez?

 

I also think this means that Gamel probably has to go--which I think is a huge mistake and is really what is gonna get Melvin fired. I love Casey as a back up but he's not a 150 game performer by any means.

 

As people correctly pointed out--there's just no pitching out there to truly make us better. And trading for good major league starters is going to cost us our best young players +, so what's the point? We'd just be tanking the franchise, but in a different way. If we get King Felix forget about what the Brewers truly need, a constant influx of young, cheap players, and if we get, which I suspect, Davis and another old stiff, we won't be significantly better anyways, especially since the offense is starting to be drained.

 

And then there's Kendall. Putting Kendall in a line up that sports Gomez, Escobar, a regressing to the norm McGehee, a below average Hart, and an uncertain Weeks, and you've got an offense that will be lucky to finish in the top half.

[LouisEly]

And then there's Kendall. Putting Kendall in a line up that sports Gomez, Escobar, a regressing to the norm McGehee, a below average Hart, and an uncertain Weeks, and you've got an offense that will be lucky to finish in the top half.

 

But essentially that same lineup ended up with the 3rd most runs scored in the NL. Gomez = Hall, Escobar = Hardy, McGehee = Cameron, Hart is the same, Weeks is the same, Kendall is the same. And that is worst case scenario as Gomez > Hall (probably equal to combined performance of Hall + Counsell), Escobar can't be worse than 2009 Hardy, Weeks is likely to play more than 37 games, and anyone can't be worse than 2009 Kendall - even Kendall. The sky ain't falling.

[nate82]

I don't see Kendall coming back unless I missed something here. It is going to be either a FA signing or Lucroy/Salome splitting time with Rivera.

[monkeyman343434]

Let me start out by saying I cant make up my mind on this trade. I have read all 18 pages(some posts I skimmed) I have read some scouting reports on Gomez & I checked the web. I keep on reading about how great Gomez's defense is. I noticed he had 8 errors his rookie year. Maybe a fluke. Has an above average arm. I was trying to think of a comparable hitter & one that came to mind is Mariano Duncan. Looks like he does better at the end of the lineup than a leadoff hitter, which could probally be said of Escobar too.

 

I feel if Bowden was availavble he may have been the better choice. I think eventually this trade could be a wash but we may not see the upside for a year or two.

 

The biggest thing that bugs me- I feel we have a manager & a GM who are not on the same page. Our GM wants our young guys to play but our manager likes the crafty vets. Our GM wants some speed in the lineup but our manager does not want to utilize it.

This is exactly how I feel. I actually like the trade, but that's been beatin' on for the past 18 pages. The problem I see, has been aparent since Gamel was first called up in '09. Macha and Melvin do not see eye-to-eye on anything involving personel decisions it seems. The Brewers' need these young guys like Gamel, Escobar, LuCroy, Salome, etc to play key roles in future teams, we can't keep going out and getting veterans for Macha to play because it's just not affordable for the Brewers.

I really think the possible starting 8 this coming year could look like : C - unknown/FA signee/Salome/LuCroy/hopefully not Kendall 1B - Fielder ; 2B - Weeks ; 3B - I wish Gamel, but probably McGehee ; SS - Escobar ; LF - Braun ; CF - Gomez ; RF - Geret/Hart platoon

I think Geret has easily outperformed Hart over the past two years. Geret's numbers after the all-star break this past year were solid 279/.343/.459/.802. I'd also like to see Geret start a handful of games in CF vs righties, giving Hart a few starts vs righties as well. If you figure you get roughly 700 PA between both CF and RF that would total 1400 PA, each of the three could get roughly 450 PAs, with Geret getting all of his vs RHP and none vs LHP, allowing Gomez and Hart to see all of the lefties

[berniebrewer4life]

According to the same source, Milwaukee wanted either starter Clay Buchholz or reliever Daniel Bard for Hardy. The Sox were not willing to offer either pitcher. Milwaukee was not interested in righthander Michael Bowden, whom the Sox would have been willing to part with, and the Sox did not have a center field prospect who could match Gomez's skill set.

Link

 

Even though I'm not a huge fan of Bowden, I would've taken him over Gomez.

WOW, we were asking for Bard or Buchholz? Bard is probably going to replace Papelbon at closer in a year or two(kid has an amazing fastball), and Buchholz has a ton of upside. I respect Melvin for asking for that, but there is no way Hardy is worth either one. In 2007/2008 sure. But not after last season. As for Bowden(like someone else already said), if he was in any other system(save new york), he wouldn't be so highly regarded, IMO. I'm not a huge fan of this trade, but i'm going to wait and see what happens next. I don't like losing cam, but if it helps us getting a few pitchers, so be it.

[brewers4eric]

After reading the 18 page thread, I'm still undecided on the trade. I think it signals a change in the current Brewers hitting philosophy. The last couple of years, we seemed to try to put a power guy at every position (aside from catcher) and swing for the fences. Now it looks like we are putting some speed guys at a couple of positions and are hoping that they will get on base so that Fielder and Braun will hit more three run bombs than solo shots.

 

Gomez may be a fine defensive player but it is impossible to play defense on a 450 foot blast given up by Looper. A move like this is probably just a precursor to something bigger that obtains pitching. If we couldn't get an arm for Hardy, it is going to take more talent to pry someone loose (some combination of Hart, Gamel, Salome, Lawrie). Brace yourselves for an interesting offseason.

 

Best of luck to JJ. I actually would have been interested to see how his defense would play in the Metrodome for 81 games.

[Invader3K]

I'll pass on them all. I think the Brewers are thinking bigger splash. We will see.

Just curious if that is based on something you've heard, or speculation at this point? Are you thinking they go after someone like John Lackey, or possibly a big trade target?

[ILuvDaBush]

Is it truly assured that we won't offer Cameron arbitration? He's bound to be in-line for a two year deal which would suit his pocketbook better than our offer of only this year (and ask our newest acquisition about having 4 OF for three positions). He's only a type B FA, which means he wouldn't cost any signing team their own draft pick while allowing us to recoup a supplemental pick as well.

 

As for Gomez himself, I'm excited for the introduction of speed to our lineup. Last year, who was a consistent threat on the bases? JJ couldn't hit a fastball if the pitcher didn't worry about getting the ball to home plate. Would I have preferred Ricky Nolasco? Yes. Would I have preferred Michael Bowden? No. Do I want to see Aaron Harang in Brewer blue now? Oh yeah. And it looks like a slight possibility now too.

 

Yadier Molina v. Gomez/Escobar. Good times.

[igor67]

It is incorrect to say that we don't have enough info on Gomez. He's a super 2, which means essentially 2 full years of Major league ABs none of which have been good compared to Hardy who has had well above average offensive years 2 of the last 3 seasons. And going from a well above average to defender to one of the two best is not a major upgrade, it's a small upgrade. And yes Cameron was going to get much closer to average one of these years, but last year he wasn't and it's last years contribution that we have to try and replace to gauge how well the team will do. Keeping him meant projecting only modest age decline on offense and defense. On the offensive side were replacing Cameron with Billy Hall. Which incidently someone else listed above to incorrectly argue the line-up would be about the same because they did not account for actually playing time last year, and then had McGee replacing someone else's contribution even though he gave us 300 great ABs that weren't accounted for.

 

What about resigning Cameron to play RF? If your going to go defense why not go all out and get a better bat than Hart in the line-up? The marginal cost is only about 5 million. Would there be a better offense, defense combo RF out there?

[ILuvDaBush]

Igor, you say that Hardy had a bad year last year but it was preceded by two good years, and then you say that while Cameron will undoubtedly fall off defensively, we only can account for what we're replacing from last year. You can't have it both ways. Collectively, Cameron and JJ couldn't steal for the rest of their careers more bases than Gomez will undoubtedly put up next year alone.

[Invader3K]

I don't think anyone advocating that we should keep Cameron around has laid out a realistic way to keep him around and presumably pay him a a similar salary, add better pitching, and not have the payroll increase significantly.

[Teatoe993]

I'm a little bit curious as to what effect playing in the Metrodome has had on Gomez's offense numbers. What does his road numbers look like? Will playing in Milwaukee help utilize his speed even more?

Initially I really didn't like the trade but I am willing to give Melvin the benefit of the doubt and see how this fits in the entire offseason. Personally I probably would have taken the Michael Bowden offer instead if the rumors are true.

The way I'm trying judge this trade is this: Defensively we have improved at both SS and CF. Offensively Hardy's 2009 will be replaced with Gomez. Gomez has less power but more speed. Hopefully he can get the OBP up a bit. Cameron's 2009 will be replaced with Escobar. Escobar has much less power but more speed as well. But hopefully some of the lost power will be made up at Catcher, 3B, LF & 2B. I also like that these guys are young with a ton of upside that hopefully will flourish in the years to come. Add in the salary we saved, we have a lot of room to acquire some good SP. Or use some of it to lock up Fielder and/or Gallardo long term.

[The Truth]

I've seen some advocating packaging Salome in a deal for pitching. I used to think that way, too, but now am not so sure about that having done more research... a bat like Salome's, you gotta keep and figure out a way to keep in the Brewers organization. I know the Brewers are hyping Lucroy, and he is very talented too, but I think you've gotta keep both, at least for now. Salome has the potential to be a .900 OPS guy in MLB and has a gun for an arm

[Baldkin]

2009

Home: .195 .242 .299 .541

Road: .261 .328 .373 .701

 

2008

Home: .278 .305 .384 .689

Road: .236 .287 .335 .622

 

His OBP is just terrible. He is Juan Pierre, with a better arm in CF. If Kendall is back, that will be 3 guys who are only singles hitters back to back to back in the lineup. I can already hear the "He's fast so he should lead off" crew making noise about both Escobar and Gomez. Ugh.

[splitterpfj]

Baldkin, it's interesting that you reference Juan Pierre. Remember a couple of years ago when this team aggressively pursued Pierre and Dave Roberts?

 

It seems as though the front office never gave up on adding that sort of player...and now they got him.

[bklynbrewcrew]

This is easily Melvins worst trade as Brewers GM. In one trade he has turned the teams biggest strength (offense) into a major question mark at best.

[burnzy24]

This is easily Melvins worst trade as Brewers GM. In one trade he has turned the teams biggest strength (offense) into a major question mark at best.

By doing what? Giving up a shortstop that hit so terribly that he was sent to the minors in August and a 37 year old CF who hit .250 last year and .243 the year before that? Give Gomez or Gerut regular playing time and I am pretty confident that they will combine to hit .250, and if they don't at least they aren't making the salary that Cameron would be.

[Mike]

Don't despair guys. There has to be more behind this move. My guess is either Gomez, Cain, Schafer and/or Gerut gets moved in a package deal for a Starting Pitcher.

[lukevan]

This is easily Melvins worst trade as Brewers GM. In one trade he has turned the teams biggest strength (offense) into a major question mark at best.

 

By replacing Cameron with Gomez/Gerut? Escobar will have no problem being as valuable on offense as Hardy was last season, so how does that take us from 3rd best offense in the NL to a "major question mark"? I'd really like to see you engage the discussion instead of firing off snippets of negativity to no end.

 

IMO, we will be better offensively at 2B, RF & C this year, with a dropoff in CF & maybe 3B.

[rluzinski]

Can we please stop suggesting the trade had to be good because he trades someone who spent time in the minors for a starter? That's just a lazy, weak argument. Can we also stop suggesting that Hardy will not rebound because, well Hall didn't?

 

After looking at this trade further, it's probably a fairly even trade over the course of both player's contracts. In other words, Hardy has the same net value (projected production - salary) in two years that Gomez is in 4. Gomez probably projects to be average around 2011 or 2012. It's hard to get very excited over such a deal, if you think the Brewer's window of opportunity is over the next 2 years. Escobar and Gomez are going to need some time.

[brewjihad]

Anyone else bothered by this?

In an e-mail to the Free Press after the deal was announced, Milwaukee general manager Doug Melvin said he didn't contact the Tigers about Hardy because they didn't have what he sought in return. "I was looking specifically for a center fielder or pitching that was low (in) salary and low (in) service time," Melvin wrote. "I did not see a match so I did not call (the Tigers)."

http://www.freep.com/article/20091106/SPORTS02/91106058/1050/rss15

[RobertR]

Just because, splits by position.

 

C .242/.331/.317

1B .299/.412/.602

2B .303/.377/.474 (I had no idea that cumulatively the Brewers got so much out of 2B. They'll have a tough time matching that.)

3B .267/.330/.439

SS .247/.306/.355 (IMO, Escobar is no lock to be significantly better than that line)

LF .309/.373/.530

CF .249/.329/.432

RF .270/.340/.425

 

I think of most concern is the hits they're taking to their OBP, which will mean less ABs for Fielder and Braun. Especially since they got an unexpectedly good year from Counsell which helped deal with the issues at 2B and SS. It's hard to see room for major improvement. Yeah, IF they could upgrade catcher that would help, but that doesn't appear all that likely. OTOH, Fielder could completely offset any gains at C by simply putting up a .950 OPS. The team, as presently constructed, is totally reliant on Fielder and Braun.

 

Robert

[TCSM]

Brewj I'm not sure why anyone would or should be bothered by this. A GM has enough skills to understand what is possible via trade and what isn't. With that said, if Melvin doesn't see anyone intriguing on the Tigers why should he even contact them? It's not like there is a written rule stating a GM must contact every other GM before a trade goes through.