JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

[trwi7]

The bottom line is he traded our back up SS for a starting CFer with similar 2009 offensive stats. Hardly a call for crucifying the GM.

That's a little ridiculous since there is a huge debate as to whether Gomez should actually be starting or whether he should be in the minors or a 4th or 5th outfielder.

[nate82]

I definitely would've taken Harang over Gomez.

You would then have lost Cameron which would have been worse. At least with this move the Brewers are able to add more salary to the team. I'm not calling this trade a winner or a loser until more information on how the rest of the off season will go.

[sheethead]

That's a little ridiculous since there is a huge debate as to whether Gomez should actually be starting or whether he should be in the minors or a 4th or 5th outfielder.

 

Debate it all you like, the bottom line is Gomez is going into camp as the starting CF. What he should be doing has nothing to do with the team, and everything to do with people's opinion. The sad part is that Carlos Gomez has haters in Milwaukee before he even slips into a Brewer uni.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

We just traded our back-up shortstop for a starting centerfielder, and that is a bad thing?

[thebruce44]

For those interested (I had a little more free time here at work) the Harang vs. Looper move would be about 2.75 more wins. I would expect whatever the next move to be (young pitcher with some upside) to be 1.5 wins above Soup at least (he was -.7 last year). That would more than even out any offensive loss for Cam and JJ, while giving up much more upside in the future. Again, just baseless speculation on my part to illustrate what could be done.

 

I definitely would've taken Harang over Gomez.

 

trwi7, you missed the point of my post. Harang for JJ wasn't ever discussed as far as I know. I was simply using Harang as an example of a move that could now be made with the 14 mil that has been freed up since people seem to be missing that point as well.

[crewcrazy]

Can't say I'm a huge fan of this trade, but perhaps Gomez will play a bit better if given the chance to play every day, as he claims in the latest JSOnline blog post. It would've been nice to get a pitcher for Hardy, but it's early in the offseason, and it's not like Hardy did a lot to help the Brewers get good value. I'm willing to wait to judge pitching additions as they come in, but as for this move, I can't say I'm a fan. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

[trwi7]

Debate it all you like, the bottom line is Gomez is going into camp as the starting CF.

And that's a pretty big problem to me. I'll give Melvin a chance to see what he does with the pitching, but given his track record in that department, needless to say, I'm not optimistic about it.

[Invader3K]

I am surprised how many people on this site of all places are downplaying Gomez. He's only 23 and has barely even had 1000 MLB at bats. He might flame out, but it's not like he's expensive right now. I am just surprised that so many of the same people who used to value youth and upside now seem like they would have rather hung onto an extra SS and an aging (and likely to decline) CF who is also expensive.

[sheetswannabe]

Dont take Gomez's stats. But take what he can be, I'm sure if another team got Weeks for a wash via trade they would be pretty mad. The thing is we have watched Rickie and we (probably half) believe Rickie has a sky high ceiling, which was shown at the beginning of the year. Before that Rickie never had a great year, he was below average defensively and an average hitter who could draw walks, but K's a ton.

 

 

Im just saying. The guys 23, one of the fastest players in the MLB which is extremely valuable defensively and offensively. He just needs to learn plate discipline and I am sure Sveum will be with him most of spring training. I wouldnt be suprised if he hit .270 this year and stole 40+ bases, with Escobar on the team who I will guess gets 30-40 stolen bases transforms our team into a team that would be very scary offensively and defensively. Imagine Escobar and Gomez getting a double steal because they are in the back of the rotation, and oh yeah you could put Rickie in for 20-30 stolen bases. Thats small ball offense with the big guys still in there.

[jerichoholicninja]

Has Brewerfan.net met a trade it likes? Even the C.C. trade was supposedly Doug's worst move ever.

[Invader3K]

Also, I don't know if this was mentioned...but Doug Melvin was on WSSP a couple hours ago, and made some very interesting comments. He mentioned that they have been extremely impressed with Lucroy and see him as a possible option for the MLB roster next year, citing guys like Russel Martin who jumped to "the bigs" without stints in AAA. So all the people who are convinced he will bring Kendall back and have half a lineup full of weak hitters should maybe take some pause.

[fondybrewfan]

I think the only way Melvin could have gotten a pitcher that is better than a #4-5 would have been to take back a bad contract. I would like to think that getting Gomez and being able to spend and additional $15M while not having to worry about the CF will result in a much more positive result than say just trading Hardy straight up for Harang or similar pitcher/contract.

 

That is unless everyone is comfortable having Jody Gerut as the every day starting CF. Granted Gerut outperformed Gomez last year at the plate, but Gomez is miles better in CF, is younger, and has tons more potential.

 

When you are a "small market" team you sometimes have to bank on potential. It seems pretty obvious that Melvin is willing to trust in potential in CF in exchange for an ability to go after "results" in SP.

 

When you are basically forced to trade a backup SS who had a terrible year, getting a young talented CF isn't the worst outcome in the world. I mean really, if we had traded Hardy for another #4-5 SP people would have been just as pissed about that.

[Invader3K]

Has Brewerfan.net met a trade it likes? Even the C.C. trade was supposedly Doug's worst move ever.

If you go back, I think there were only one or two posters who actually really hated it. Almost overwhelmingly people supported it.

[sheetswannabe]

The first page was pretty negative but then it got better.

[MJLiverock]

In a dream offseason, what could Melvin realistically get with this $14 mil that could turn us into a playoff team? What are you hoping for?

 

An HD Scoreboard in CF. And better fireworks before the game and after wins (when the roof is open). And a crying room for Corey Hart for when he realizes he has no body to die his hair black with next year.

 

Seriously, I assume Melvin is going to make a run at Mulder, Lackey, Washburn or Davis. The later two would not excite me. The former two would make me moderately satisfied. The bottom line is he traded our back up SS for a starting CFer with similar 2009 offensive stats. Hardly a call for crucifying the GM.

Why would Mulder excite anyone? He may never pitch in the majors again and if he does I would expect Jeff Suppan at very best and terrible as likely scenarios for him.

 

Again I see it mentioned that they couldn't get a pitcher straight up for him which is totally believable but they could use a package with Hardy to bring in someone with upside to the rotation or minor leagues, or wait more than 2 days to take the first offer on the table. This just looks like a desperation move and it isn't even winter meetings time yet.

 

The bagging on Gomez is because he hasn't done anything at the major league level yet and may never and the team already has Gerut for CF who with a decent platoon partner could very easily out produce Gomez on top of Cain putting up similar minor league numbers as Gomez being around the corner if they just want cheap potential. Gomez could be very well be Lastings Milledge or worse just as likely or even more likely than some Jose Reyes of CFers.

[apirk]

Hart plus to the Braves for Vazquez could be possible other than that not much out there really in the trade market.

C'mon give me a break

 

If people think the Braves will trade one of the best pitchers in the league for a mediocre outfielder, then I can see why people thought the brewers could get more for HArdy. Unless the plus is Escobar or Lawrie.

 

Hardy wouldn't change positions and was terrible last year, this was probably the best the Brewers could get.

[Hofbraunhaus]

I was definitely disappointed when I first heard about this trade but I think I am going to hold off on judgements until I see what Melvin does with the money saved. I am not exactly confident, but hopefully Melvin has a plan in mind. I think the big question is will the Brewers untuck their jerseys next year without Cameron on the team.

[brewcrew7]

People are always going to overvalue their players. JJ would not bring any pitcher worth while and that is fact. So we traded for a cheaper position player so we have some money for a potential pitcher. I have always said that in our size market we need to have as many cheap options in the field and a majority of our money needs to be spent on pitching. We have two studs in the lineup and I really could care less who else is in the lineup. At least we will have some speed and can maybe create some runs that would not have been there with JJ clogging up the bases. Pitching wins and we need to clear money in order to get some of it. This is the beginning of it. Whats not to like?

[diener34]

I don't understand a few things:

 

1) Isn't Weeks the leadoff hitter next year? I think he will be.

2) People would really rather keep JJ and Escobar on this team next year rather than do this trade? To me it seems that would not only stunt Escobar, but just cause even more trouble than before. Also, if JJ was kept and didn't improve, not only do the Brewers have go after Cam for 10 mil, but then pay Hardy's 5 mil and then be stuck with a 4.5 mil player on the bench or in the minors.

3) I don't think a MLB GM should keep guys to "Hope he regains his trade value"

 

I don't think there was a market for JJ at all and Melvin took what he could get, and got it.

[MJLiverock]

Dont take Gomez's stats. But take what he can be, I'm sure if another team got Weeks for a wash via trade they would be pretty mad. The thing is we have watched Rickie and we (probably half) believe Rickie has a sky high ceiling, which was shown at the beginning of the year. Before that Rickie never had a great year, he was below average defensively and an average hitter who could draw walks, but K's a ton.

 

 

Im just saying. The guys 23, one of the fastest players in the MLB which is extremely valuable defensively and offensively. He just needs to learn plate discipline and I am sure Sveum will be with him most of spring training. I wouldnt be suprised if he hit .270 this year and stole 40+ bases, with Escobar on the team who I will guess gets 30-40 stolen bases transforms our team into a team that would be very scary offensively and defensively. Imagine Escobar and Gomez getting a double steal because they are in the back of the rotation, and oh yeah you could put Rickie in for 20-30 stolen bases. Thats small ball offense with the big guys still in there.

You are counting on some drastic improvement in a short period of time in getting that plate discipline up. It could happen, but how realistic is it for a guy to successfully change his whole approach at this point. If Sveum was that good why couldn't he teach Hart to walk more or Bill Hall?

 

I love the stolen base, Rickey Henderson was my favorite player as a kid. That said, the Brewers and Ken Macha have shown a lot of reluctance in stealing bases. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear Ken say he was put in a bit of zimzam with getting a young unproven CF'er whose best offensive skill is stealing bases. How ticked off will people be if Weeks, Gomez and Escobar are kept tethered to first base all year and end up with about 15-20 steals each which would seem like the old running Cardinals by comparison to Macha's history.

[nate82]

If people think the Braves will trade one of the best pitchers in the league for a mediocre outfielder, then I can see why people thought the brewers could get more for HArdy. Unless the plus is Escobar or Lawrie.

No the plus wouldn't be Escobar or Lawrie. Vazquez is not that good and he is far from one of the best pitchers in the league. The Braves are not going to get much in return for either Kawakami, Vazquez, or Lowe all of which have somewhat high contracts Lowe and Vazquez having rather high contracts and Kawakami having a somewhat reasonable contract. Vazquez is owed $11.5m next year and Lowe is still owed $45m over the next three years.

 

The market for 33 year old pitchers is not that high.

[apirk]

Really?

 

A 2.87 ERa, 1.03 whip 238 Ks and BAA of .223 isn't good?

 

 

 

 

Corey Hart may have less trade value then Hardy

[Never Outhustled]

He mentioned that they have been extremely impressed with Lucroy and see him as a possible option for the MLB roster next year, citing guys like Russel Martin who jumped to "the bigs" without stints in AAA. So all the people who are convinced he will bring Kendall back and have half a lineup full of weak hitters should maybe take some pause

This is a bad idea. Lucroy is getting way too much hype for his AFL performance. If you curve his stats for league effect, he's been very average. He was only a little above average in AA. He needs AAA. However, Melvin had a bad habit of rushing prospects.

 

 

But take what he can be, I'm sure if another team got Weeks for a wash via trade they would be pretty mad. The thing is we have watched Rickie and we (probably half) believe Rickie has a sky high ceiling, which was shown at the beginning of the year. Before that Rickie never had a great year,

 

Weeks had 2 great seasons in the minors, Gomez never had a good season in the minors. Sure he has tools, but its a real stretch to think he's on the verge of a breakout.

[craigharmann]

I only read through page 6, and then jumped to the last page, so forgive me if this was already brought up, but what about Lo Cain as our CF of the future? Would he possibly be a chip in another trade?

[JJHardy7]

What specific pitcher would've been available? I don't think anyone knows that answer...