2010 batting order

[wishicouldhit]

either escobar or gomez will be batting last (8th or 9th), the other will be near the top of the order. It would make sence to give escobar the hardy treatment, that is let him bat in front of Braun so he gets good pitches to hit. Considering he is our top prospect Macha needs to put him in every position to succeed

[TooLiveBrew]

No reason Escobar or Gomez should be anywhere near the top of the lineup

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

No reason Escobar or Gomez should be anywhere near the top of the lineup

I agree and I don't think they should be batting consecutively either. 7th and 9th would be ideal.

[HiAndTight]

Bat Gomez at eighth or ninth until he proves he can put up a decent OBP.

 

Why does Gomez have to prove himself but Escobar doesn't?

Let me preface this by saying I dont believe either should hit at the top of the order.

 

With that said, I think Escobar is clearly the lesser of two evils.

 

He hit .303 last year with a what, .335 OBP in a a small sampling? Put up OBP's of .365 and .355 roughly the last two years in AA and AAA.

 

The point here? A small sample size of good numbers is preferable to a large sample size of BAD numbers.

[HiAndTight]

I know it will be a while before everyone realizes it, but Escobar is potentially the 3rd best hitter on this team and having him hit 9th while it makes for a nice 2nd leadoff guy, the missed PA aren't going to be worth it. If I'm going to hit the pitcher 8th, I'd have Gomez 9th, followed by Weeks and Escobar.

Escobar isn't even close to Weeks, Hart will likely be better in 2010, McGehee should be better, and I think Gomez will be even money to be better than Alcides next season too. That statement is just way off-base. Somewhere down the road, Escobar might develop into the team's second or third-best hitter, but he's not even close to that yet.

If Escobar ends up this teams 3rd best hitter one of two things will have happened.

 

1-He ends up greatly exceeding nearly all expectations(including those of Mr. and Mrs. Escobar).

2-We look back up on the '02 Brewers remembering the "good 'ole days".

 

I really, really like Escobar, but I agree with you. Weeks is almost certainly going to be much, much better. Hart, McGehee, Zaun, Gamel will all likely be much better.

 

If Escobar gives us a .675 OPS and a .275/.315 line next year I think that'll be considered a overwhelming success.

[RobDeer 45]

Ok guys I'm not a huge stat guy but saw that Escobar batted .304 w/ a .333 obp. So I can see he doesn't draw many walks but would think that he could maybe improve on that as he grows in the majors. Is his stat line that far off from being a leadoff hitter? I guess I don't know what the league average would be for the leadoff with OBP and Avg but I'd love to be filled in.

 

Thanks

 

As for the other guys I'd really like to see weeks bat 2nd or 5th and would like Gomez 9th. I love speed and think that we can make a few things happen with the guys we have in the lineup.

[And That]

The average slash line in the NL in 2009 for a player batting in the leadoff slot in the batting order was .270/.340/.402. The Brewers had the 3rd highest OPS and 4th highest OBP from the leadoff position last year - their guys went .283/.357/.423. Can Escobar equal or better either of those lines?

[RobDeer 45]

I don't know but it appears to me that he's not that far off is he? Or are we saying the sample size is way too small?

[TooLiveBrew]

The latter. Escobar might prove people like me wrong & suddenly improve his plate discipline, hit around .315 & be a great leadoff candidate. However, at this point, there's just nothing to suggest that that's likely. Weeks is a fine leadoff option, and if the Brewers are lucky enough to have Escobar hit his way to the top of the lineup, Rickie can finally slide down in the middle of the lineup where he belongs. If Escobar doesn't force his way up the lineup, ho hum, the Brewers have the 'problem' of getting our third-best hitter in a spot to see the most PAs of anyone on the team.

[logan82]

I will say that I honestly am not concerned what the average player put up when deciding batting order. I think you have to build a lineup looking at what you have. Weeks career OBP is about .350. Add to that he hits for a lot more power, he doesn't have to steal a base to get to 2nd, and he is clearly a better hitter than Escobar. While it might not be preferable to have Weeks bat leadoff, he is probably our 3rd best hitter depending on what McGehee puts up.

 

Hart put up disappointing numbers in 2009 and 2008 but his 2009 was still 50 points of OPS higher than Escobar's numbers. With a higher OBP I will add. While Hart's numbers are worse at his position than Escobar's are for his, Hart is still the better hitter.

 

If anything, Escobar might outhit McGehee of all the guys in our lineup. Escobar's minors numbers are better or comparable in the last couple years to McGehee's with a better OBP. I don't think McGehee will hit as well as he did in 2009. I kind of doubt he outhits McGehee though. I will add that after the last couple years of seeing our guys tear up AA I am a little skeptical of numbers put up in the Southern League.

 

McGehee

2008 AAA .345/.429/.774

2007 AA .338/.422/.760

 

Escobar

.333/.368/.701

.363/.434/.797

 

In my opinion our hitters are split up like this

 

Tier 1

Fielder

Braun

 

Tier 2

Weeks

McGehee

Hart

 

Tier 3

Zaun

Escobar

 

Tier 4

Bench players

 

Tier 5

Gomez

Pitchers

[JohnBriggs12]

Ever since Escobar hit .281/.348/.342 as a skinny 17 year old in the Pioneer League against 20-22 year olds, he's shown he can hit at every level. He hit .328 at AA at age 21 and followed that up at age 22 hitting a combined .299 in 555 ABs divided between AAA and the majors. Hart hit .302 at AA at age 21 and hit .281 the following year at AAA. Weeks hit .259 in AA at age 21. Yes he hasn't shown the power of Hart or Weeks yet but he's a much more accomplished base stealer in the minors than either of those two.

 

I even think he'll hit with moderate power (15-18 HR per year) once his body fully matures. He's hitting .398/.438/.503 this winter in Venezuela, leading that league by a wide margin and batting 3rd.

 

All you doubters will be proven wrong. It's just a matter of time. Escobar has tools to be an All Star.

[TooLiveBrew]

No one here doubts him. I'm not sure who is disagreeing that Escobar has the tools to be a really, really good player and/or All-Star.

[logan82]

He hit .328 at AA at age 21 and followed that up at age 22 hitting a combined .299 in 555 ABs divided between AAA and the majors. Hart hit .302 at AA at age 21 and hit .281 the following year at AAA. Weeks hit .259 in AA at age 21. Yes he hasn't shown the power of Hart or Weeks yet but he's a much more accomplished base stealer in the minors than either of those two.

 

It isn't all about the power with Escobar. He doesn't walk much either. Don't forget to look at OBP when comparing players. It is more important than BA. Escobar was 2nd on the Nashville team in DP's hit into.

No one here doubts him. I'm not sure who is disagreeing that Escobar has the tools to be a really, really good player and/or All-Star.

 

I have some doubts. He has plenty of time to mature though.

 

I think we need to keep in mind that we are talking about next year, not 2-3 years from now. The discussion is where should Escobar hit right now. Not where should he hit in 2011 and beyond. Right now Escobar is probably expected to be our 7th best hitter. That isn't a guy I want hitting higher than 6th in the lineup.

[TooLiveBrew]

When I said 'no one doubts him' I meant in overall ability, not just hitting. I think he'll hit enough to justify a starting spot, but beyond that I'm not sure.

[logan82]

When I said 'no one doubts him' I meant in overall ability, not just hitting. I think he'll hit enough to justify a starting spot, but beyond that I'm not sure.

A SS doesn't really have to hit well to justify a starting spot if they can play even average defense. The average SS put up a line of MLB - .271/.328/.394/.721, NL - .268/.327/.396/.723 in 2009. Even an average SS is typically a pretty poor hitter. We probaly really should split off into an Escobar thread.

[kramnoj]

All you doubters will be proven wrong. It's just a matter of time.

 

This thread is about the 2010 batting order. Do you think Escobar is suddenly going to develop patience and hit 18 HR this year?

[RyDogg66]

The Brewers really need Gamel in their lineup some where. I guess if I had to put together a lineup today I would want it to look something like this.

 

1. Weeks

2. Escobar

3. Braun

4. Fielder

5. McGehee/Gamel

6. Hart/Gamel

7. Gomez

8. Zaun/LuCroy

 

If McGehee hits like he did last year the offense should be fine. If he turns back into Casey McGehee pre 2009 then the team really needs another bat. Hart or Gamel could be that bat if Hart figures it out and/or Gamel is given the at bats to produce up to his potential.

[logan82]

McCalvy had the best lineup I have seen so far. I might switch up the bottom 3 a bit, but at least it has Escobar and Gomez at the bottom. His thought is switching Zaun and Hart depending on the handedness of the starter we are facing. Hart actually has a better OPS VS RHP than Zaun but with a much lower OBP. .339 vs .313 I won't quibble much with a guy a spot or two away from where I think they should be. It's when we start seeing guys batting 4+ spots higher than they should be that I really don't like.

 

1. Weeks 2B

2. Hart RF or Zaun C

3. Braun LF

4. Fielder 1B

5. McGehee 3B

6. Zaun C or Hart RF

7. Gomez CF

8. Escobar SS

9. Pitcher

[JohnBriggs12]

All you doubters will be proven wrong. It's just a matter of time.

 

This thread is about the 2010 batting order. Do you think Escobar is suddenly going to develop patience and hit 18 HR this year?

 

First, there is more than patience that goes into walk totals. While I wouldn't characterize Escobar as patient, I also wouldn't label him undisciplined either, as evidenced by just 18 K's in 134 plate appearences last year. It takes 4 pitches out of the zone to walk. To get to the 4th bad pitch, hitters need to swing and miss, or take pitches until they have 2 strikes and then foul off pitches until the 4th pitch out of the zone. Pitchers tend to come right after top of the order hitters with base stealing ability. I would bet that if someone charted the pitches thrown to Escobar, they would be a higher than normal rate of in the zone and Escobar doesn't swing and miss all that much.

 

As for what to expect of Escobar this year? I think if he hit ahead of Braun and Fielder, and got 650 plate appearences, I would project him at .302/.346/.413, with 180 hits, 28 doubles, 9 triples, 8 HR, 38 stolen bases in 46 attempts, 103 runs scored, 51 RBI, 45 BB/HBP, 10 sacrifice bunts, and 68 K's. That's just the tip of the iceberg though. I think by his 3rd season, he will routinely hit about what he did at Huntsville in 08 on a regular basis: .328/.363/.434.

 

Molitor hit .273/.301/.372 as a rookie in 1978. He started 120 games that year, 114 of which he led off. The other 6 he batted 8th. Yet despite just a .301 OBP, that Brewer team led the majors in runs scored with 804 that year, Molitor was 2nd in the ROY voting, and he earned the nickname "The Ignitor", not because he ignited the offense with walks, but with hits and exciting play. Escobar is an exciting player, and burying him in the 8th spot bedause he doesn't walk much is a mistake.

[kramnoj]

I think by his 3rd season, he will routinely hit about what he did at Huntsville in 08 on a regular basis: .328/.363/.434.

 

This thread isn't about what Escobar will be in 2012. Escobar shouldn't be projected to be one of the Brewers better offensive players in 2010, so he really shouldn't be getting more plate appearances than better players. Having Escobar hit 9th with pitcher 8th could work fairly nice, with low pressure on Escobar.

[sheetswannabe]

1. Escobar ( Good hitter, needs to walk more but it will come, doesn't K much, will steal 30+ bases)

2. Weeks ( Let him get more fastballs in the 2 hole ahead of the big guys, don't want to put too much pressure on a guy who just had another wrist surgery.)

3. Braun

4. Fielder

5. McGehee/Gamel

6. Zaun ( Decent hitter, decent power for a catcher as well, most likely will put up a .345+ OBP%)

7. Hart (Could be a huge difference maker if Hart puts up 2007 numbers, but that could be a pretty big if.)

8. Gomez ( Let the guy work on his bat skills and plate discipline, this guy could be a stud in a couple years.)

[logan82]

Escobar could steal 50 bases and still be a really terrible leadoff hitter because he doesn't get on base.

 

He is not expected to get on base with any consistency anytime soon. It makes zero sense to give a guy like that 100 extra PA(almost a month of extra PA). Only Dusty Baker would think that is a good idea. I hated Kendall at the top of the lineup the few times Macha did it, but at least Kendal could carry an average OBP. A month in if Escobar shows he can, I may relent a bit. As of now, he is projected around a .325 OBP. Right now, he is probably going to put up the 7th best OBP amongst regular starters with little in the way of SLG to make up for his weak OBP. His value is mostly in his glove.

[TooLiveBrew]

But in 2012... he will totally show all of you guys

 

 

I think as of right now, I'd like to see Escobar & Gomez batting 7th & 8th. I really don't care which one goes where, to be honest.

[sheetswannabe]

If a guy steals 50 bases thats like hitting 50 doubles, you are in scoring position 50 more times, now put it on top that Escobar will hit plenty of doubles also. You need a leadoff guy to spark the offense. Weeks is wasted power at the top of the lineup (Weeks has to potential of hitting 25+ homers in a full season), put Weeks in the 2 hole and let him serve those fastballs into orbit. To be fair the Brewers dont have a perfect leadoff guy so why not go with the fast guy who can hit?

[logan82]

To be fair the Brewers dont have a perfect leadoff guy so why not go with the fast guy who can hit?

 

Escobar only fits half your description. He is fast.