How big of a loss was Maddux

[bklynbrewcrew]

I know most people dont think the pitching coach makes much of a difference but I think losing Maddux was a huge blow to this organization. He has helped transfer a terrible Texas staff into a decent one while our pitching has been awful. I think Maddux is the second best pitching coach in baseball after Duncan and that we really felt his loss big time. I realize that Suppan and Looper are terrible but Maddux could have probably gotten more out of Parra at least.

[Ennder]

You really can't tell anything from one season. Texas improved because they brought up all their young guys, it easily could have nothing to do with Maddux. The Brewers mostly have the same exact peripherals as always so I doubt there was as significant a change as the ERA suggests. When you judge pitchers by ERA they are not going to be consistent year to year.

[RockCoCougars]

A very big loss in my opinion. How many scuffling pitchers did he 'fix' while with the Brewers? Heck, he may have even made Burns serviceable... well....I guess he's not that good, but still.

[pretendastronaut]

There was an article in ESPN The Magazine a few issues ago about Texas' pitching transformation, and it seems most of the credit is going to overall culture changes within the Rangers organization, especially Nolan Ryan's fundamental changes in attitude and approach.

 

Which isn't to say that I don't find Maddux valuable, but he didn't single handedly transform that staff either.

[joepepsi]

The pitching coach is probably the only coach on staff that makes a real difference. Maddux is one of the best in the game. I'm sure the Brewers' results suffered a bit without him around.

[rluzinski]

I think it is obvious that even the franchises don't think that some pitching coaches can affect pitching performances significantly more than others. I believe the Rangers are paying Maddux $600,000 this year. Assuming an average pitching coach get's $0.5 mil less and teams pay around $4.5 mil for each win via free agency, does that mean Texas thinks Maddux is worth .5/4.5= 1/9th a win more than an average pitching coach? Leo Mazzone was perhaps the most celebrated pitching coach ever but only got $0.5 mil/year when he moved to Baltimore.

 

So if the franchises don't think these guys are very valuable, why do the fans?

[NievesNoNO]

I think a major league pitching coach's impact is negligible. He might be able to help one player achieve more, but get less production from another guy. Players make the coaches and managers, at least at the major league level. Dave Duncan gets a lot of credit in St. Louis, but the reason he does is because the team wins more games. The guys he's getting credit for the last few years haven't really been any better or worse in St. Louis. Wellemeyer is not good, Lohse and Pinero are O.K, but they aren't any different from when they pitched elsewhere. They have two legit aces. They could pair up any three average starters with Carpenter and Wainwright and be solid. I'll give him credit for Suppan. Suppan's the only one I found so far that had decisively better numbers in St. Louis. Maddux got a lot of credit for guys like Turnbow, Davis, and Dan Kolb. Turnbow also lost what he had under Maddux, Davis has repeated a few decent years in other places, and Kolb had about 50 good innings in his career. So that being said I'm not sold on the pitching coach being of significant importance. At the minor league level, Yes, major league, No.

[davemakovec]

Texas called up some of those dynamite minor-league arms they had waiting around, including the dynamite arms they got from Atlanta in that dynamite Texeira trade.

 

Mike Maddux is good, but he's not dynamite.

 

Sidebar - how many times can you fit dynamite into a post before you feel stupid? I hit four. Wait, five.

[bigredrobbo]

Texas called up some of those dynamite minor-league arms they had waiting around, including the dynamite arms they got from Atlanta in that dynamite Texeira trade.

 

Mike Maddux is good, but he's not dynamite.

 

Sidebar - how many times can you fit dynamite into a post before you feel stupid? I hit four. Wait, five.

And you still avoided saying "boom, goes the dynamite". I applaud you, sir!

[mothershipconnection]

So if the franchises don't think these guys are very valuable, why do the fans?

 

Both franchises and fans often think gritty hustling battlers are valuable, so both can often be dismissed as morons.

[danzig6767]

I think it is obvious that even the franchises don't think that some pitching coaches can affect pitching performances significantly more than others. I believe the Rangers are paying Maddux $600,000 this year. Assuming an average pitching coach get's $0.5 mil less and teams pay around $4.5 mil for each win via free agency, does that mean Texas thinks Maddux is worth .5/4.5= 1/9th a win more than an average pitching coach? Leo Mazzone was perhaps the most celebrated pitching coach ever but only got $0.5 mil/year when he moved to Baltimore.

 

So if the franchises don't think these guys are very valuable, why do the fans?

I do think many fans can over estimate the importance of pitching or hitting coaches, but if some are a little better at their jobs than others, i do question if it makes financial sense to let a better one go over say an extra 100 grand. If they though are as nearly irrelevant as being implied and there is little to no difference between them, why bother even having a pitching coach?

[rluzinski]

I'm not saying that pitching coaches don't provide a valuable service. I just don't think there are big differences between them, at least not that teams can identify. They are a dime a dozen. If there were a million Pujolses, they would all make league min.

 

And guys like Counsell don't get paid $10+ mil a year, so as much as they are celebrated by the fans, media and franchises, teams have a decent handle on the true value of grit.

[endaround]

The problem with that Russ is managers make more than GMs in general and we know managers have a much smaller impact than GMs.

[nate82]

The problem with that Russ is managers make more than GMs in general and we know managers have a much smaller impact than GMs.

Actually for the most part GMs salaries are usually kept a secret. Look over at Cot's blog and try to find a salary number for any GM you won't find many. Also when a new GM signs with a team watch the news on it and you will see that the GMs salary is very rarely ever stated.

 

What GMs make is a very secretive thing so you really can't say managers make more than GMs because you have no idea what the GMs are really making.