Gamel's future

[JohnBriggs12]

While Gamel's may have the ability to be a good fielder at third, so far he has been average at best.

 

And McGehee has been worse than that, so why would Gamel be the one moving?

Minor leagues: McGehee: .960 FP in 563 games at 3B. Gamel: .883 FP in 475 games at 3B

 

Majors: McGehee: .924 FP in 77 games at 3B. Gamel: .885 FP in 27 games at 3B.

 

Now you can spin all you want that fielding percentage doesn't reflect ability, etc and that other factors weigh in, blah, blah, blah. But those numbers are significantly in McGehee's favor despite playing with a sore knee.

[JohnBriggs12]

McGehee's trade value isn't all that high. He's a year removed from being a waiver claim and not a top prospect. Any team dealing for him takes on the risk many talk about that he'll turn into a pumpkin.

Scott Podsednik was traded for Carlos Lee even after a bad season...you never know.

Exactly. We don't need 10 GM's wanting to bet McGehee was not a fluke, we just need 1.

The point is Scott Podsednik's "bad season" still validated him as a major league player (he led the NL with 70 steals in 04) and not a one year wonder at least as far as base running. Many Sox fans love what Podsednik did for them in 05 and he bounced back again and had a really good year this year too. That's why even if McGehee is ordinary next year, he'll retain his current value. If he repeats his 09 numbers, his value will shoot up incredibly.

[TooLiveBrew]

If this guy doesn't scream Bill Hall v2.0 I don't know who does.

I don't think that is even close to a fair comparison. Hall had huge holes in his swing while Casey has a tighter, compact swing and makes much better contact.

 

EDIT: ...not to metion much better plate discipline.

mletto summed things up nicely. However, I should acknowledge that your points here are right-on, gobrew. I also should've realized what a loaded term "Bill Hall v.2.0" is.

 

For the record, unlike the odd assertion that some people dislike McGehee because Macha wasn't intelligent enough to find the (easy) way to play both Casey & Gamel, I really like McGehee. He's a fine player, but in terms of talent, he's just nowhere near Gamel... and a lesser-talented player should never block or be valued more than a more talented player.

[TooLiveBrew]

Now you can spin all you want that fielding percentage doesn't reflect ability, etc and that other factors weigh in, blah, blah, blah. But those numbers are significantly in McGehee's favor despite playing with a sore knee.

 

'Blah blah blah' all you want Briggs, but as long as you continue to cite Fldg.% as your main defensive metric, you will continue to weigh fielders poorly. McGehee doesn't cover much ground, and was an average fielder in the minors (as a guy older than Gamel at basically every level). Gamel, on the other hand, has improved his defense continually by all first-hand reports, and has the athleticism that absolutely sets him apart from a guy like McGehee. Did McGehee's knee injury affect his fielding? Absolutely. It seemed to take an average or below-avg. fielder & turn him into a bad one this season.

 

Gamel, on the other hand, just needs more repetition on his footwork in his throwing mechanics, and is probably already at worst equal to McGehee in the field, all things (not just Flgd.%) considered. For a long time, the argument about range/covering ground & its value to defense was had surrounding Weeks. We saw just how good Rickie was in the field this season before he got hurt, and also saw the value in waiting for a supremely-gifted talent to bloom. While I understand the loaded name I'm using here, I think there is a lot of similarity in equating going with McGehee over Gamel at 3B to going with Bill Hall over Rickie Weeks at 2B (circa 2007 or so -- and yes, I know that was never really a debate... I just see similarities).

 

 

The point is Scott Podsednik's "bad season" still validated him as a major league player (he led the NL with 70 steals in 04) and not a one year wonder at least as far as base running.

 

If you can get a slugger like Carlos Lee because some slappy hitter "validates himself as a basestealer", then I think as a GM you've won what is a bad trade for the other team. The ironic thing is that Pods really didn't validate himself, and got less effective as a basestealer in each successive season.

[ELCABALLO45]

McGehee's trade value isn't all that high. He's a year removed from being a waiver claim and not a top prospect. Any team dealing for him takes on the risk many talk about that he'll turn into a pumpkin.

Scott Podsednik was traded for Carlos Lee even after a bad season...you never know.

Exactly. We don't need 10 GM's wanting to bet McGehee was not a fluke, we just need 1.

The point is Scott Podsednik's "bad season" still validated him as a major league player (he led the NL with 70 steals in 04) and not a one year wonder at least as far as base running. Many Sox fans love what Podsednik did for them in 05 and he bounced back again and had a really good year this year too. That's why even if McGehee is ordinary next year, he'll retain his current value. If he repeats his 09 numbers, his value will shoot up incredibly.

 

Scott Podsednik is not a very good baserunner. His SB percentage is around 72% in his career, which is almost hurting the team.

 

In 04 he ended up posting a .677 OPS. And while slugging is not as important as a lead off hitter his OBP was .311.

[Never Outhustled]

Pods didn't land us Carlos Lee, our ability to take on Lee's contract did. I could see McGehee landing us a high quality but expensive pitcher, like Javier Vazquez.

[RightFieldCoder]

Didn't we also through in an effective RP along with Pod to get Lee?

[logan82]

Luis Vizcaino. Link

[Baldkin]

Heard Macha on the radio the other day, he was asked flat out why he didn't play Rivera, Escobar and Gamel more.

 

The response for Rivera (paraphrased): "Well, I played him a Monday and then a Wednesday once and then he hurt his hamstring, so I didn't want to do that again."

 

For Gamel and Escobar, the response was the same: "I didn't want them to lose their confidence facing major league pitchers every day."

[TheCrew07]

I forget which beer company commercial has the dudes who say "Brilliant!"... but that was the first thing I thought of... Macha is the first Brewer manager I've ever despised.

[wibadgers23]

For Gamel and Escobar, the response was the same: "I didn't want them to lose their confidence facing major league pitchers every day."

Lamest excuse I've ever heard. At some point, you have to see if these guys can actually hit major league pitching. For Macha, it must be when a player is 30 years old and washed up. That being said, I was happy with the playing time Escobar got. Wish I could say the same about Gamel though.

[Mass Haas]

I thought Macha came across pretty well in that interview -- don't misquote him -- regarding Escobar, he said he sat him against tougher pitchers, specifically citing Ryan Dempster's slider.

 

Here's the audio.

[clancyphile]

For Gamel and Escobar, the response was the same: "I didn't want them to lose their confidence facing major league pitchers every day."

Lamest excuse I've ever heard. At some point, you have to see if these guys can actually hit major league pitching. For Macha, it must be when a player is 30 years old and washed up. That being said, I was happy with the playing time Escobar got. Wish I could say the same about Gamel though.

Macha makes Ned Yost sound smart with that quote.

 

That said, I'd move Gamel to left, Braun to right, and Hart to center if Cameron is to depart. Hart's numbers are iffy for a corner, but should be pretty good for CF. That opens third for McGehee, and second can be handled by Escobar until Weeks is healthy, after which Escobar spells Weeks, Hardy, and McGehee.

 

Think of it this way: Escobar at $450K > Counsell at $1 million plus

[Point Beer Is Best]

I'd be pretty surprised if Hardy is on the roster next year, and I highly doubt they will trust Escobar anywhere but SS given the failed experiment with him at 2B this year. It's more likely that Escobar is the full time SS, Counsell is the utility guy and Hardy is shipped out for pitching.

 

EDIT: Also, you have three OF's playing new positions (Hart's limited playing time in CF notwithstanding), with one entirely new to the OF to go along with playing Escobar out of position. I guess I'd rather not mess with half of the defensive structure of the team.

[Baldkin]

Not playing a guy because a good pitcher is on the mound, not letting him get used to the top end pitchers in MLB, not letting him get the handful of at bats against them when the chance of making a run to the playoffs is nil.

 

Yeah, because what we need is to set them up to fail next year when they face these guys for the first time.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Wasn't there a quote by Melvin during September where he called the notion that they should be playing the young guys since they are out of contention "stupid?" If so, it's not just Macha who feels this way. I can sort of (but not entirely) understand wanting to play McGehee since he's a ROY candidate over Gamel, but I don't understand wanting to shield these guys from facing top-talent this year unless they wanted to keep their trade value intact, which is entirely possible.

[logan82]

That said, I'd move Gamel to left, Braun to right, and Hart to center if Cameron is to depart.

 

That would probably give us one of the worst if not the worst outfield defense in the majors. Braun is a bad defender and isn't likely to be better in the other corner. Hart is a poor corner outfielder, there is no way he would be a good CF. Gamel having never played in the outfield isn't likely to be anything except below average. At least we have a good defender in CF to cover for the other guys a bit.

[DHonks]

I have no problem with Macha saying he didn't want to overexpose these hitters by playing them against top starters. But then why, when Gamel would have a good day, would he then not play for 3 days because Macha wanted to start Hall (bad for 2+ years at that point), McGehee (nursing a bum knee), and Counsell (nursing a bum knee)? Counsell and McGehee were huge surprises this year, but it drove me crazy to have Gamel sitting as the 4th 3b, when he should have been starting 2-3 days per week at a minimum

[twobrewers]

That would probably give us one of the worst if not the worst outfield defense in the majors. Braun is a bad defender and isn't likely to be better in the other corner. Hart is a poor corner outfielder, there is no way he would be a good CF.

Any outfield that has Adam Dunn will always be the worst outfield in baseball.

 

Braun isn't great - but he would be adequate in RF. Hart actually has better defensive numbers as a CF than as a RF. But, regardless, you are correct - it would be a bad outfield defensively.

[logan82]

One guy doesn't make an outfield the worst in baseball. If Hart can't even play average defense in RF, there is no reason to expect him to be anything except bad in CF. His good play in CF was several years ago when he could play adequate in RF.

[southpaw121505]

Are you saying he's getting worse?

[logan82]

Certainly seems that way.