Gamel's future

[Invader3K]

I'm in favor of trading Gamel, but only for a good young pitcher. It may have to be part of a package, though.

[reillymcshane]

The Brewers finished 3rd in the NL in Ks, but still finished 3rd in Runs Scored, because we were 3rd in OPS. the teams that finished higher in Runs Scored were 1 and 2 in OPS. Colorado finished 2nd in both Runs Scored and Ks. The teams that K'd the least were in the bottom half in Runs Scored.

sweet, X. Nice stat.

[reillymcshane]

The Brewers need to first determine if Gamel is really and truly a third baseman. There are still many doubts. If not, then determine if he could be a corner OF. If not, then trade him - assuming they aren't going to trade Prince - because if he's not a 3B or a corner OF, he's a first baseman.

 

personally, I think Gamel should be tried at RF. He's got a strong arm, but I don't know how he'd look in the OF. I'd really like another lefthanded bat in the lineup every day. Yes, he might struggle. But he also looks like he can be exceptional given time and patience.

[NievesNoNO]

Gamel should be the teams starting third baseman. What McGhee did is admirable, but I think he's in for a Ty Wiggenton type career. He's valuable because he's versetile and a professional hitter, but doesn't posses elite upside. Gamel has nothing more to prove in the minors and if he really was considered basically untouchable tradewise then he needs to be given the job. If he's the real deal and blows up next year, along with a healthy Weeks the Brewers might lead the NL in runs scored.

 

That said, obviously scoring won't be a problem either way so if somebody does come calling with a young stud starting pitcher like a Brett Anderson then I guess you have to at least consider it.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Brewers need to first determine if Gamel is really and truly a third baseman. There are still many doubts

 

Imo the only doubts come from the fanbase. The Brewers committed to Gamel at 3B prior to 2009, and feel his one wart (footwork in throwing mechanics) is correctable through coaching. I agree with them, and don't want to see Gamel devalued by moving him off a far more valuable defensive position -- one at which he has the skillset to be a very good defender. Not to mention that his bat is much more valuable at 3B.

[TheCrew07]

I'm not sure I understand the logic in trading Gamel to keep McGehee. Now people want to trade the only legit proven LH power bat in the system and give the position to a player who had the first breakout season of his career? All I'm going to say is be very careful what you wish for because Prince is gone in 2 years and then we will have no LH power threat at all in the lineup.

 

At the very least Gamel should be tried elsewhere before being moved if all of a sudden the organization doesn't think he's a 3B. Every off season since I've been reading this site people whine for another solid LH bat to pair with Fielder. Isn't that what Gamel is? He isn't going to K in 42% of his plate appearances, he'll K around Braun's rate but take a greater amount of walks. Gamel will be an .800ish OPS player at his worst and has the potential to be a .900+ OPS player at his best. Gamel will hit 25-35 HR a season and we don't have another LH hitter in the system capable of that today. Mat had his worst season as a pro and still hit for an OPS over the average, I'm guessing many people just don't realize the kind of hitter he's going to become.

 

I'm all for players earning their playing time but Gamel never even got a fair shot to play the position. McGehee got hot after Weeks went down and that was it... Gamel was PH and DH which many of us correctly pointed out was a great waste of his service time. Of course he failed in that role, he's never done it before in his life, and ultimately the experience trashed his confidence. Mat certainly has his warts, pretty much all players this side of Griffey do as prospects, but the organization handled him in the absolute worst possible way. I'm not giving Mat a free pass, he's ultimately responsible for his play, but the organization did set him up to fail, which I find the most troubling aspect of this entire scenario. Melvin should have known better and stepped in when Macha claimed to be in a "zim-zam". Then again he should have addressed the pitching issue years ago and nothing happened there either, so I shouldn't have expected much.

 

I've beaten the pitching drum as much anyone, probably more so because I tend to be relentless, but I wouldn't trade Gamel or Escobar for pitching for all of the reasons I've previously mentioned over the last 2 years. Package McGehee with another MLB position player... if necessary throw in some prospects in the low minors to get the deal done. If you can't find a deal then take a shot at some often injured pitchers like Sheets... please don't make a bad worse by trading the only elite LH hitter in the system. I know we drafted Davis who's got 20/20 potential, but he hasn't played a game above instructionals yet. If we need to trade an elite prospect bat I'd part with Lawrie and resign Weeks before I'd trade Gamel.

[Invader3K]

I have to say, I get tired of how Casey McGehee's great season seems to have gone almost completely unrecognized around here. Yes, I realize it was his first "break out" year, but it was also his first year getting consistent playing time on an MLB roster. He turns 27 next week, so next season is his year 27 season. Everyone talks about how Manny Parra is still "young" and has potential, but he's no younger than McGehee (OK, he's technically about 3 weeks younger, but you get my point).

 

Casey's line on the year: .301/.360/.499/.859. Legitimate ROY candidate. I believe he ended up leading all NL rookies in RBIs, too.

 

Now people are panicking because he's having some minor cleanup surgery. I'm sure most of the same people were the ones panicking when Braun was having some slight injury issues for a couple games early this season. Look how that turned out.

 

I don't think the argument should really be about Gamel vs McGehee, though. I think it should ultimately be who will bring in the better trade (assuming one does get traded this off-season, and I would wager one will). It might not be the Brewers' call at that point.

 

It just feels like some people on this forum almost resent Casey McGehee (and consequently Ken Macha) for taking Gamel's job. I think that is kind of pathetic.

[MillerParkSouth]

I'm just worried about trading Gamel before he really gets a chance to shine and then McGehee turning back into a pumpkin. Maybe i'm way off base here, but whenever I see McGehee, I can't help but think 'Brady Clark'. Now if we can get back a young, mid to top of the rotation starter with upside that we control for several years for Gamel, then I think we have to entertain it. I don't want to be trading Gamel for depth though.

[JohnBriggs12]

McGehee's trade value isn't all that high. He's a year removed from being a waiver claim and not a top prospect. Any team dealing for him takes on the risk many talk about that he'll turn into a pumpkin. I don't think he will personally and neither do the Brewers, but that's going to be the perception and GM's would rather take on risk on a guy that's a little younger and a more hyped prospect, because if he fails, they can always say "Oh everyone in baseball was high on this guy. We don't know what happened." They also see what many on here see, and that is the potential of him being really, really good.

 

I think Melvin and the Brewers saw a lot to like in McGehee beyond his numbers. He's a very grounded, level headed player. Guys like him used to be called a ballplayer's ballplayer. He fits in well with his teammates. Those factors cannot be discounted.

[TheCrew07]

I have to say, I get tired of how Casey McGehee's great season seems to have gone almost completely unrecognized around here. Yes, I realize it was his first "break out" year, but it was also his first year getting consistent playing time on an MLB roster. He turns 27 next week, so next season is his year 27 season. Everyone talks about how Manny Parra is still "young" and has potential, but he's no younger than McGehee (OK, he's technically about 3 weeks younger, but you get my point).

I have to say that you're obviously not getting what we're saying if that's how you feel. It's not like McGehee won an outright competition for the job, Gamel was never given an even chance to produce and earn the playing time. I'm not sure how that's even debatable, given the recent comments made by Melvin and Ash, they admitted to handling the Gamel situation improperly. If you don't believe that Mat is the better athlete between the 2, has the better arm, the higher ceiling at the plate, in addition to being the only legit power threat from the left side in the system, then I'm not sure what to say. If Mat's worst season, breaking as a rookie in mostly PH and DH duties, is better than league average, just think how good he could be. I personally think he will become a LH Braun who's going to take more walks at the plate.

 

This is yet another situation where people want to make 1 for 1 comparison between players when the situation isn't that black and white. We have a surplus of RH hitters at the moment, we should trade from our position of strength to acquire a position of need. In addition Fielder isn't sticking around past 2011 and there isn't a LH bat other than Gamel that's going to produce anywhere near his level in the system. The lineup will get more LH as this next wave of players comes through, but none of those players has hit anywhere near Gamel's level. There has to be a balance between short term and long term roster construction.

 

Taylor Green is probably a good LH comp to McGehee, he's a player who's not all that toolsy with an excellent compact swing. He'll hit for average, around 20 HRs, won't walk or strike out much, doesn't have great range or arm but is generally an all around solid baseball player. There's absolutely nothing wrong with players who get the most out of their talent, but again the situation isn't that simple. If McGehee batted left handed I could even buy into the argument that he should be kept over Gamel, unfortunately he's not, and his skill set is redundant so it's easily replaceable. Casey had a magnificent season, no one is taking that away from him, he's simply more expendable because of the side of the plate he bats from and his limited tool set. Lawrie's much more toolsy than McGehee and I'd still move Lawrie before Gamel because we already have a RH power hitter signed long term in Braun. This is a similar situation to last off season when I wanted to move Hardy for pitching and keep Escobar... Hardy was the most valuable player who was the easiest player to replace on the roster (between Braun, Fielder, and Hardy)... this off season that player is McGehee as Braun and Fielder aren't going anywhere.

[DrugBust]

To me it comes down to this:

 

If you can get a middle of the rotation caliber pitcher for Casey, move him and hand the job to Gamel. If not, send Gamel back to AAA and see if McGhehee's '09 was a fluke or not.

 

People look at Casey and simply assume that because of his minor league history and his lack of eye popping tools that last season was a fluke. But what if it wasn't? What if he actually gets better? I completely agree that some people are way too quick to dismiss Casey's season.

 

Unless the Brewers get blown away in a deal that offers them middle to top of the rotation caliber pitching for either player, bring both back.

[endaround]

The Brewers can't keep both Gamel and McGehee if they hope to trade for a pitcher. That's the whole point. Sure if they had an option fo getting a pitcher a different way they could keep both but they don't. Hardy won't bring back a top major league arm because any team trading for Hardy is in a win now mode. You're likely looking at a top AA arm for Hardy if they trade for best talent. Hart has had two bad seasons in a row, his value is at rock bottom. Salome's value is low and until he can prove he can really catch they are unlikely to shop Lucroy. That leaves Lawrie who really isn't extraneous since when he's ready Weeks might be gone.

[monty57]

TheCrew07, I agree with everything you said. My concern (and the reason I said Gamel should be traded this offseason) is this:

 

Macha has already said that McGehee is going to start at 3B next season. Melvin then gave Macha the vote of confidence by bringing him back next year and adding an option year to his contract. Therefore, McGehee will be the starting 3B next year. Macha seems to have a lot of control over the makeup of this team. He said signing a closer was more important last offseason than starting pitching, and Melvin made signing Hoffman priority #1. He wanted a veteran bench, and Melvin got it for him (get rid of guys like Nelson and Duffy, sign Cat, trade Gwynn for Gerut). He wanted veteran bullpen guys over the guys from AAA, so Melvin picked up Vargas and Weathers, busting the budget for the extra win or so we probably got from them. He could have run a platoon of Gamel/McGehee/Counsell for 2B/3B when Weeks went down, but he didn't want Gamel to play, so Melvin brought in Lopez. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see much chance of McGehee being the one that's traded, and there's no chance of Gamel playing while they're both on the same roster.

 

This being the case, we then have several options for Gamel.

 

1) Put him on the 25 man and let him rot like we did this year, eating up his service time and destroying his value.

2) Leave him in AAA. This is probably the likely scenario, but remember that he turns 25 next year. At some point, people are going to stop regarding him as a top prospect if he's still in AAA into his mid-to-late-20's.

3) Trade him. His trade value right now is still very high, but I could easily see it diminish in the scenarios listed above.

 

I do not want to see Gamel traded, as it is very likely that he will be a very good player, and we will live to regret trading away such a good player. However, if he is not going to get a chance to shine with the Brewers, then I think we need to get the most value we can for him. Of course, Macha and Melvin will probably prefer one season of Halladay over 5-6 seasons of a solid (but "unproven") young pitcher, but that's another story.

[logan82]

He turns 27 next week, so next season is his year 27 season. Everyone talks about how Manny Parra is still "young" and has potential, but he's no younger than McGehee

 

Parra missed portions of multiple years of the minors. McGehee played in AAA multiple years. That is why Parra is thought of as young and McGehee old. Plus McGehee is in competition for the 3B job with Gamel who is 23.

 

 

Now people are panicking because he's having some minor cleanup surgery. I'm sure most of the same people were the ones panicking when Braun was having some slight injury issues for a couple games early this season. Look how that turned out.

 

Nobody is panicking over McGehee having surgery. We knew he would since about May. Many people are worried he just had it cleaned up instead of fixed. McGehee's knee limited his effectiveness. How will next year be any better with his knee just cleaned up.

[Diskono]

McGehee's trade value isn't all that high. He's a year removed from being a waiver claim and not a top prospect. Any team dealing for him takes on the risk many talk about that he'll turn into a pumpkin.

Scott Podsednik was traded for Carlos Lee even after a bad season...you never know.

[TooLiveBrew]

It just feels like some people on this forum almost resent Casey McGehee (and consequently Ken Macha) for taking Gamel's job. I think that is kind of pathetic.

 

What's more "pathetic" is betting that a guy who had success out of nowhere in a prime-aged season will continue that success. Gamel has a track record of top performance in the minors, and even showed flashes of that brilliance even though he never got a fair shot at playing time thanks to the good ol' boy Macha.

 

Honestly when you analyze things objectively, McGehee just doesn't hold an edge over Gamel. Mat's younger, far more athletic, faster, has a higher ceiling & a better glove. Sure McGehee had a good year at the plate, but he was bad in the field (with no tools to suggest he'll ever be better than average -- even when healthy, unlike Gamel). If this guy doesn't scream Bill Hall v2.0 I don't know who does. Do you really need to see him turn in a .750-ish OPS on an annual basis to believe that's what he's likely to do? The trouble is if Gamel is traded away, you have to watch him turn in mid-800 OPS seasons & better for the rest of his career. It's not only that Gamel is more likely to outproduce Casey next season -- it's that he's more likely to outproduce (offense & defense) Casey for the entirety of their careers.

[ELCABALLO45]

McGehee's trade value isn't all that high. He's a year removed from being a waiver claim and not a top prospect. Any team dealing for him takes on the risk many talk about that he'll turn into a pumpkin.

Scott Podsednik was traded for Carlos Lee even after a bad season...you never know.

Exactly. We don't need 10 GM's wanting to bet McGehee was not a fluke, we just need 1.

[thunderbat30]

I really don't have a comment either way because both players have pro's con's--but it is sure interesting to read everyone's thoughts on Casey and Mat. Brewer passion is great.

[gobrew23]

If this guy doesn't scream Bill Hall v2.0 I don't know who does.

I don't think that is even close to a fair comparison. Hall had huge holes in his swing while Casey has a tighter, compact swing and makes much better contact.

 

EDIT: ...not to metion much better plate discipline.

[Tbadder]

The Brewer approach must remain long term, and Casey simply doesn't fit the bill. The Brewers are going to regret dumping Gamel if they do. Casey is the guy to trade if one of them must go. The long term health of Casey is also in doubt; he's eventually going to miss a year when the knee lesion is removed. How can a club have anything but a short term plan that includes such a fragile piece of the pie. Gamel is, and will remain, the only real hope at 3rd base.

[paul253]

Why do we have to trade one of them? I don't understand why Melvin is so opposed to moving Gamel to the outfield. Everyone speaks of thinking long term, well let's do that. Mike Cameron will be around one, possibly 2 more years. Corey Hart has consistently struggled with the bat and I don't think anyone considers him the rightfielder of the future. All of the best outfield prospects are no higher than AA (and two of them are capable of playing CF which Gamel will not get in the way of) meaning probably at least 2 years away. While Gamel's may have the ability to be a good fielder at third, so far he has been average at best. Braun was moved to the outfield. Hart was moved to the outfield. Why is Melvin so blatantly opposed to moving Gamel.? He can play the outfield all spring and he can get some time in AAA as well.

[mletto157]

I don't think that is even close to a fair comparison. Hall had huge holes in his swing while Casey has a tighter, compact swing and makes much better contact.

 

I don't think he's necessarily talking about the players actual physical skills as much as the perception of said player by the fans/front office, etc. Everyone loved Bill Hall and thought he was the next coming after one or two good seasons that came out of no where. The exact same thing is happening with McGehee. The exact same thing happened with Brady Clark. Anyone notice a pattern here? We can't keep doing this to ourselves with players that come out of nowhere and have a career year... it's turning into our achilles heel!

[Teatoe993]

Don't forget Wes Helms & Turnbow.

[trwi7]

While Gamel's may have the ability to be a good fielder at third, so far he has been average at best.

 

And McGehee has been worse than that, so why would Gamel be the one moving?

[endaround]

If the Brewers want to trade for pitching they have redundant players at 2 positions, SS and 3B. That's where the pitching will come from. Hardy won't bring back a top flight pitcher because of the time he has before FA. That leaves players with significant team control left. So if you want Escobar, Gamel or McGehee definitely has to be moved to get that pitcher.