Would anybody else feel comfortable with Gerut as our starting CF?

[Roderick]

What was Bush's excuse last year,

I believe his "excuse" was that Maddox didn't want him pitching inside and after he got sent down, he said screw it I am going to pitch the way I want and did much better after that.

[joepepsi]

Bush's K rate this year 7 per 9ip. His walk rate is under 3. In his 4 seasons with the Brewers he's had two above average seasons, two below. Given the way he was pitching before the injury it's reasonable to think this year would have been another above average season.

 

Someone above posted Bush is a No. 3 starter at best, as though that was reason enough to cut him. That's plain silly. No. 3 starters make $10 a season over multiple season contracts. I can accept the idea that Looper isn't worth his option and that Suppan is toast, but I'm not ready to throw Bush out the window as punishment for the team's disappointing season.

[Never Outhustled]

Bush's K rate this year 7 per 9ip. His walk rate is under 3.

Yet his FIP is still over 5 because he gives up a ton of homers, just like last year.

[Invader3K]

I think Bush is fine, assuming he can bounce back from his issues of this season. That said, you can't expect to build a rotation around him and Gallardo, with such mediocrity in Soup & Loop, and not knowing if Parra will ever fulfill his "potential".

 

As far as the issue in CF, I stand by my earlier assessment that Cameron's cost is just going to outweigh the benefits he brings to a team like the Brewers. If they retain him and that means holding onto a rotation similar to this year's, it's going to be a total waste of money anyway.

[joepepsi]

I agree with Invader. I think Cameron has been great for the team, but the payroll is tapped out. They need to go with cheaper position players like Gerut, Escobar, some platoon at catcher. Since the offense is so heavily weighted towards Braun and Prince, it will probably have little effect on the lineup. As wonderful as Cameron is in the field, I still believe the difference between an average defender and a great one isn't all that much over the course of a season.

[yogallardo43]

Why is Bush the whipping boy in this thread? Are you suggesting that we non-tender Bush and pick up Looper's $6.5 million option? I guess I am just not understanding your arguments. What is your plan with non-tendering Bush to help this team and not address the rotation?

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I'm not so sure about that Joe. Remember how bad the fielding was in 2007. Defense was the hole that year the way starting pitching was this year. Aside from getting Braun out of the infield, putting Cam in center was the most significant upgrade. With the bull case scenario on our starters as league average (a huge upgrade from 2009), they'll need good glovework behind them. I'd rather see them work something out with Cam.

 

I guess I'd like to see an OF of Braun, Cam and maybe Lopez with Gerut as #4 with an IF of Prince, Weeks, Escobar & Gamel with Counsell back as the bench player. Lopez' flexibility could help too if we see an injury in the infield. I would see what Hardy, Hart & Casey can bring as far as starting pitching and plan on moving at least 2 of them. I would also rather take a shot with a couple younger higher ceiling guys than retreads like Looper (think guys like Manny Parra on other teams...wouldn't have worked out this year, but they need to take a chance) and as Ennder points out, at least put a couple mediocre replacement arms at AAA. Forget replacing Suppan, we really needed an upgrade to Mike Burns. Catcher needs a new direction too...Kendall has fallen way too far at this point.

[Never Outhustled]

Why is Bush the whipping boy in this thread? Are you suggesting that we non-tender Bush and pick up Looper's $6.5 million option? I guess I am just not understanding your arguments. What is your plan with non-tendering Bush to help this team and not address the rotation?

My plan is to ditch Bush and Looper, pick up Tim Hudson, and keep Cameron. The money is there if we punt the low upside pitchers. Looper and Bush are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[TheCrew07]

Bush isn't the whipping boy, he's just one of the 2 most expendable pitchers we have. Suppan isn't going anywhere, for better or worse, neither are Yo and Parra, Yo because he's good, Parra because he has no trade value.

 

Right now the biggest problem with the pitching staff is there isn't a single starter who's going to pitch into the 7th on a consistent basis, the starting rotation is leaving way too many innings for the bullpen. Melvin would be crazy to bring everyone back and expect to have a different result, health in the rotation or not. These guys just aren't that good, most days I'm hoping they can scrape through the 6th.

 

To me Cameron is a Luxury... but if we go into next year with the same rotation and retain him, then we're just flushing money down the toilet, because the team isn't going to be significantly better unless Parra breaks out. With the roster having been constructed the way it was we have way too much money tied into our least talented players. It's fine for people to suggest Mark A will bump up the payroll, but it's not realistic. The Brewers are an investment, he's not paying anyone's salary out of his own pocket, the business pays everyone and to stand on it's own, thus the business is on a budget. Is it realistic to expect 3,000,000 fans against next season after a .500 season? Can the team realistically plan around that? The Brewers are already at their high water mark here people, how much farther can they be expected to go payroll wise?

 

I don't think Cameron is one of the first off season moves Melvin should make, I think he's one of the last, pending how the rest of the roster shakes out. Is Cameron worth Bush + Looper by himself? No, I don't really believe that he is, pitching is at a premium right now in MLB. To retain Cameron the team has to get less expensive elsewhere in my opinion. As much as I want Melvin to do something about the pitching, I have a hard time believing he will. If the team goes young with Salome, Escobar, and Gamel then I think retaining Cameron is the smart play, if they don't and stick mostly with the same roster they had this season then I don't think Cameron is coming back. There's still way too much dead money tied into players who are no longer on the roster or are under performing for 2010. Going into 2011 it will be much brighter on the financial side of things, unless of course Melvin gets roped into another Suppanesque contract.

[trwi7]

My plan is to ditch Bush and Looper, pick up Tim Hudson, and keep Cameron. The money is there if we punt the low upside pitchers. Looper and Bush are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I totally agree with you. I'd add McClung to that list as well, let Heether take over for Counsell (unlikely, I know.)

 

Actually the whole thing seems unlikely.

[joepepsi]

I'm not so sure about that Joe. Remember how bad the fielding was in 2007. Defense was the hole that year the way starting pitching was this year. Aside from getting Braun out of the infield, putting Cam in center was the most significant upgrade. With the bull case scenario on our starters as league average (a huge upgrade from 2009), they'll need good glovework behind them. I'd rather see them work something out with Cam.

Yeah, I remember 2007, but that year Braun, Weeks, and Prince were pretty awful. Plus you had the Hall Experiment in CF, Estrada at catcher, and Mench platooning in the corners. All of them were bad in the field as I recall. I agree there is a big difference between bad defense and very good defense. I just don't think the difference between someone like Gerut, who I suspect would be at least average in CF, and Cameron is that huge. Now if the choice were Cameron or Brady Clark, that would be a different story....

[Ennder]

It is highly unlikely that trading the $14M and 4-5 wins we get out of Bush/Cameron are going to be replaceable with the same amount of money in other starters. If they are it is going to be on high risk pitchers who we are just hoping work out which is one path we could go of course. I'm fine with letting Looper walk but letting Bush go just seems like banging our head into a wall, we aren't going to find a better deal on the FA market.

[Roderick]

I would like to hear whatever everybody thinks Bush is going to get in arbitration. If he made $4M this year, had a bad, but injured season, would he get less, the same, or more? I think if we are looking at $5M or less I am fine with that. If we are looking at more than $5M I would have concerns.

 

What is the cost to cut after spring training? Is it 25%. If we lay down $5M on Bush and he looks like he doesn't have it during spring training, then the exit cost would be $1.33M. Is $1.33M worth it to have a chance to get the good Bush? I think so.

[endaround]

He won't get less. He'll get a raise between 500k-1m most likely.

[joepepsi]

They build their arguments on the previous 3 year's performance, right? This may be a case where the player wants to avoid the hearing. At 2008 level, he's probably worth $7-8 million. I'd take a deal at $5 million and hope he's healthy.