Sheets possible if Melvin/Macha are let go?

[Hate those Rodents]

I'll preface by saying

1) I realize the ship has sailed here in many people's views and some don't even want him back under any condition

2) Macha was not even ever his manager

 

But, does anyone think we'd have a shot at Sheets if we wanted him if we sort of clean house this off-season. Not saying we even will. But do you think the animosity is more toward management in Sheets' opinion, or do you think he really just doesn't like Milwaukee, his teammates, etc.?

[Invader3K]

Who knows if he'll even pitch again at this point? There's been zero news on him lately, and he's gone basically a whole year without throwing a pitch in a game. It's not like he's getting younger. I'm not saying he can't come back, but I wouldn't say it's a forgone conclusion at this point.

[jackalope02ca]

Melvin isn't going anywhere, nor should he. I would be very surprised if Macha wasn't given a 2nd chance. As for Sheets I'm not sure why anyone would want a pitcher who has been off for a full year. If he comes back he'll need to sign a short term cheap contract but I'd rather take my chances on someone else.

 

We have the basis of a decent rotation next year with Gallardo, Bush, Suppan and Looper. I wouldn't be surprised if we move Gamel or Escobar for a top flight pitcher.

[DHonks]

At this point I can't fathom bringing back Macha. He had the same team that Yost did in the first half of '08 and his team was significantly worse. Yost's teams never looked as bad and underachieving as Macha's did in April and June-Sept.

[twobrewers]

The horse is already dead.

[paul253]

You know, if he would be willing to listen I'd definitely offer him something. That being said, from everything I've heard, he's not going to come back. I do think they should re-sign Capuano and Mike Jones though.

[MNBrew]

At this point I can't fathom bringing back Macha. He had the same team that Yost did in the first half of '08 and his team was significantly worse. Yost's teams never looked as bad and underachieving as Macha's did in April and June-Sept.

Holy selective memory!

 

The same team as Yost? No. No Sheets. No Sabathia. After Gallardo, no consistency (and after June, no quality) in the rotation.

 

I'm not thinking the guy's the 2nd coming of Joe Torre or even Tom Trebelhorn. But who do you think should be the manager? Who could/would do any better with a team with such a horrid rotation? Castro was fired and clearly he wasn't the problem.

[jimmyjeromehardy7]

On Brewers.com last week in a chat with Davy Nelson he was asked a similar question which he replied to with -

 

That's funny, I spoke with Ben a couple of days ago and I asked him the same question. He said he leaves it open and it is up to the Brewers. He would love to come back to play for Milwaukee if they would want to sign him. Ben said he is continuing to rehab his injury and continuing to work on getting his arm back to full health.

[RockCoCougars]

My gut tells me that Macha will be gone the day after the season ends. Attanasio has never been shy about making bold moves. This will make a good splash for the fanbase. I wouldn't be surprised if all this could lead to Melvin leaving as well if he disagrees with the decision.

 

In any case, I've said before that Ben is the best off-season option for the Brewers. I'm not sure why the fans turned on him so quickly, but it seems a lot of people forget that he was the All-Star starter just last year. I would like to know the true story of what happened, my guess is that it had something to do with Suppan making more money than him. Who can blame him?

 

My worst fear is that Sheets will be Molitor version 2. That is, injury plagued with the Brewers, and never hurt again once he leaves.

[dadofandrew]

Molitor DH'd after he left MIL. It's easy staying healthy batting 4 times a game.

[cwolf2012]

I would LOVE to see us resign Sheets. The price would be right in our range, and he's the #1/#2 type this rotation needs. He's too talented to not come back strong.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

jackalope02ca[/b]]Melvin isn't going anywhere, nor should he.

We have the basis of a decent rotation next year with Gallardo, Bush, Suppan and Looper. I wouldn't be surprised if we move Gamel or Escobar for a top flight pitcher.

I don't agree with this post at all. Melvin has to take the fall for the state of pitching in the organization whether it was Jack Z's fault, injuries, small market woes, whatever. He was in charge and he failed over the fast several years to get high ceiling prospects from the draft or the players we traded.

 

And I wouldn't call that a decent rotation since it's not much different than what we put out there this year. I'm not sure Gamel or Escobar would bring an established #1 or #2 major league starter either.

[Invader3K]

On Brewers.com last week in a chat with Davy Nelson he was asked a similar question which he replied to with -

 

That's funny, I spoke with Ben a couple of days ago and I asked him the same question. He said he leaves it open and it is up to the Brewers. He would love to come back to play for Milwaukee if they would want to sign him. Ben said he is continuing to rehab his injury and continuing to work on getting his arm back to full health.

 

I don't know if I'd put too much stock into that. It's nice to hear Sheets speak positively about a possible comeback, but he is probably just keeping all options open at this point.

[paul253]

I don't know if I'd put too much stock into that. It's nice to hear Sheets speak positively about a possible comeback, but he is probably just keeping all options open at this point.

 

Even so, you have to at least look into it. If we can sign him for 2 years at $14 million or even one year at $7 or $8 million, it'd be worth it. He's the same high risk high reward type players we've signed in Gagne and Hoffman. We have a lot of money coming off the books. They have to look it into it.

[Invader3K]

$14 million for two years is probably way too big a risk at this point. He hasn't pitched in a real game in close to a year, and we know zilch about how his rehab is going right now. I realize he'd of course have to pass a physical, but that's beside the point.

 

I'd say a one year deal around $4-5 million should be much more realistic, given the risk involved for a team like the Brewers. They can't afford to pay a starting pitcher $8 million a year if he isn't guaranteed to be effective. They probably learned their lesson with that from Suppan's contract, fortunately.

[paul253]

I can understand that. But Ben Sheets' upside is so much higher than Suppan's ever was. Perhaps the amount is too high, but I was just implying that I wouldn't even hesitate too much if it is going to take a two year deal to get him.

[Invader3K]

Well, I guess that's understandable here since many were clamoring to sign him to a 4 year, $60 million deal before he got hurt (or whatever figures people were using at the time). You just can't really go off what he's done in the past at this point. He could be a completely different pitcher than from before his injury, and he will also be 31 next season. He really should sign an affordable one year deal, maybe with some healthy incentives built in, and prove that he can still be an effective top of the rotation starter.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Given that the Brewers are going to be paying Suppan and Hall roughly 20 million next year, I'd say that's going to limit Melvin's financial freedom somewhat. If it's a cheap deal, and by cheap I mean << 4 mil or so, it'd be worth considering, but at anything close to 8 mil or more, the risk probably isn't worth the reward. I'd rather see whatever available funds the team has put into someone who's not coming off a year and a half layoff with an extensive injury history to boot.

[Roderick]

Molitor DH'd after he left MIL. It's easy staying healthy batting 4 times a game.

I don't know, Molitor found ways to get injured batting and running the basepaths.

[twobrewers]

Why would you sign Ben Sheets instead of Bedard?

 

Both are very talented. Both are always hurt. Except Bedard isn't coming off of a major surgery and missing an entire year.

 

In addition, Bedard would take half a season before the fan's turned on him. The fans would boo Sheets by his second start.

[endaround]

Actually Bedard is coming off major surgery and won't start rehab until like February.

[GAME05]

i would think Sheets' best option at this point is to take a one-year deal somewhere to try and prove he can pitch effectively again. i'd be thrilled to see Sheets in Milwaukee again and would be upset if people booed him. although if Sheets were brought back, it would be a mistake to be slotting him the rotation without a capable 6 and 7 starter for if/when he gets hurt.

 

it seems so premature to say that someone has to take the fall for just one year of suckitude. if you can have the debate of "Was it Melvin/Macha or was it a down year for the rotation?" then you need to give Macha and Melvin another year just to see if this season was an aberration. Plus no in-demand manager or GM would ever want to come here if one bad season meant getting fired. I think Macha did a fine job this year--he got some great work out of the bullpen and constructed a top-notch offense out of basically Braun and Fielder.

[nate82]

I wouldn't mind Sheets back on the Brewers with an incentive laden deal. Something like $4m guaranteed with $500k for 100 IP, $2m for 150 IP, and $4m for 200 IP. That would all add up to $6.5m in incentives for Sheets making his 1-year contract a possible $10.5m deal which is more than what Sheets would be able to get from any other team on the market. I believe this would be a safe buy low risk for the Brewers. Even at $10.5m for Sheets for 1-year that is a steal for what you would be getting. At $10.5m you are not going to get a #2 or a #3 pitcher in free agency.

[LouisEly]

He had the same team that Yost did in the first half of '08 and his team was significantly worse.

 

No Weeks for most of the season, no Gabe Kapler, an infinitely worse JJ Hardy (I will give you a better Prince Fielder), a much worse Manny Parra, no Dave Bush for over two Months, a worse Villanueva (Gallardo for Sheets basically is a wash), and no CC Sabathia (Yost didn't have him long, but he won 11 of his 17 starts with a 1.65 ERA - so take Burns/McClung/CV/Narveson's starts, a total of 16, and replace that with Sabathia). To say that he had the same team Yost did for the first half of '08 is not accurate. And didn't Macha have the Brewers in first place even as late as the end of June? They were 30-20 at the end of May, 42-35 at the end of June, but then the losses of Weeks/Bush and the crappiness of Hardy/Parra/Villanueva caught up to them (when Weeks went down they were 24-14).

 

The manager's job is to manipulate his roster/pitching matchups to best maximize their situational production. He isn't responsible for the injuries to Weeks and Bush or the crappiness of Hardy, Parra, and Villanueva. He is responsible for the overplaying of Kendall and possibly overplaying of Hart early in the season when he was slumping, but playing others (Kendall/Catalanotto/Gerut/etc.) more often would only have given them at most two or three more wins. People are griping about not playing Gamel more often, but frankly McGehee and to an extent Counsell (had a .366 OBP at the end of July) were more productive, so I don't think that playing Gamel more often would have resulted in more wins. Had he played Rivera, someone other than Hart when he was slumping, and Gamel more often I doubt that they would have more than 3 or 4 more wins, so they'd still be out of it. I have a hard time pinning this on Macha.

 

Edit - sorry for going off-topic. Feel free to move this post to the Macha thread.

[logan82]

I think Macha did a fine job this year--he got some great work out of the bullpen and constructed a top-notch offense out of basically Braun and Fielder.

 

and Cameron and McGehee and Lopez and Counsell. We've had average or really good production out of every position other than catcher and SS this year. Even Hart has been close to average this year.