Unrealistic Expectations for improving our team

[lcbj68c]

I thought I was pretty clear, but let me try and make it more understandable. It doesn't make you any less of a fan, or a substandard person, but I find it unacceptable for myself to settle for less, be satisfied, or give less than my all. That's all these excuses seem to accomplish. Poor payroll be damned, poor facilities be damned, poor fanbase be damned (unlike Milwaukee, which supported their team), the 2008 American League Champions found a way to get the job done. Then, in 2009, weren't satisfied, but added to team and continued to set themselves up to be better..not subtracted. So, no, it doesn't make you less of a fan, I'm sure your passion runs just as deep. I do think however that it does say something about character, no? Whatever happened to the attitude of "Come Hell or High Water, we're going to get the job done!"? It just doesn't run deep with this management system and it seems to have rubbed off on some of the fan base. Going on year 7..year 8.. you just expect something a little better than .480 baseball. But, really did we expect better when this management system continues to mismanage payroll and hire free agent pitchers who have a track record of losing more than winning? I don't expect them to spend $210M, but I do expect this management system to surround themselves with winners, set themselves up to be winners, to carry themselves as winners, to portray a winning attitude, rather than sitting back and making excuses as to "poor me, the system has us beaten". I for one, do demand these things as part of my value system, and if that is unrealistic, then my apologies for offending anyone who thinks the status quo, mediocre, content to never achieve one's all is perfectly acceptable because heck, "We're Milwaukee". Perhaps when that philosophy and line of thinking changes at the top with management, so to can the entire landscape of Milwaukee Brewers baseball.

[pete]

Minus the cliches, it sounds as if you want them to spend as much as is necessary to win the WS.

[TooLiveBrew]

I do think however that it does say something about character, no? Whatever happened to the attitude of "Come Hell or High Water, we're going to get the job done!"?

 

Because in this setting, 'come hell or high water' = mortgaging the future for one stinking season. I just wish critics like you could admit that the only reason you're complaining is the extreme high of last season contrasted with a disappointing one following. It's not like you have ever offered any kind of long-term suggestions yourself, just more generalized stuff like, 'This isn't good enough!'

 

 

Going on year 7..year 8.. you just expect something a little better than .480 baseball

 

Yeah, nevermind the building of this team season by season to last year... one season is all I need to see to tell me a GM SUCKZ!

 

 

I do expect this management system to surround themselves with winners, set themselves up to be winners, to carry themselves as winners, to portray a winning attitude, rather than sitting back and making excuses as to "poor me, the system has us beaten".

 

Suppan was signed because he was a winner. How's that working out?

[BrewCityUnit]

Great points AKA Pete and TL Brew. That has been the most frustrating thing for me lately. Everybody wants management to do more but nobody has any specific ideas. We over value what many think are our main trading pieces and every single team is looking for good young pitching. So if every team is looking for the same thing, why would someone offer up their pitching to take JJ Hardy or Cory Hart off of our hands. Matt Gamel and Escobar might be top prospects but they are not going to land us that difference maker. Look what Toronto wanted for Holliday and look what Philly have to give up to get Lee. We got very lucky to get CC last year and part of this was because they knew CC was not going to sign with the Indians this year.

 

For those who think if we would have offered CC the same amount of money that the Yankees did or even more he would have signed with the Brewers. I strongly disagree. Again, until 1 marquee free agent signs with the Brewers, why would anybody expect anything different? To me its not having a negative attitude or being complacent...it is just being realistic. I am so happy to be a Brewer fan and I am so happy to actually see this team relevant. The way we have built this team, we are always going to have a chance to make the playoffs. If we have injuries and players under perform like this year then what you see now is what we are going to get. But heading into 2010 I think many people in baseball will think this team has a chance to win the division. The days of winning 60-70 games are long gone.

 

I keep seeing Tampa Bay keep popping up in this thread. I think you will see the Milwaukee Brewers in the playoffs sooner than the Rays. I'm not saying we are as good as the Rays but taking into account the league and divisions we play in I will take our situation any year over theirs.

 

On a side note, isn't it crazy that in the last 11 years, the National League has 10 different representatives in the World Series.

 

Philadelphia, Atlanta, New York, Florida, St. Louis, Houston, San Diego, San Fransisco, Arizona and Colorado, with St. Louis the only team representing the NL twice. That leaves LA, Washington, Cincinatti, Pittsburg, Chicago and Milwaukee.

[TooLiveBrew]

I admit I admire the Marlins and their titles and somehow being competitive even in the rebuilding years. The A's and Twins tried to go half way and have failed to win titles and partially due to only going half way, not willing to go all in to win. I would rather win a title now and then rather than be an average .500 team year in and year out.

I'm guessing that somehow adding Sabathia last season will not meet your definition of 'going all in' ... am I right? wrong?

 

 

He got all pissy along with some people here when Braun insinuated the rotation needed help

No, he got pissy for Braun insinuating that the Front Office wasn't working hard enough to add said pitcher(s), and about the fact that you can't just conjure a top SP out of thin air... the other side(s) have to like what you're offering.

 

This was a great example of a team with a very potent offense realizing they had a shot at a WS title not only this year but next and willing to seize the opportunity without resting on the laurels of last year's victory.

And for posterity's sake, a tangible example of my prior comment. The Phillies told Melvin they didn't like the prospects we had to offer. But curse Melvin for resting on his laurels & contacting Cleveland!

[TheCrew07]

I'd love to offer a solution of exactly who I'd offer for whom, but as I've said many times I'm having trouble coming up with deals this season, I have a hard time reading market value trade wise as MLB trends back towards pitching and defense. Everyone knew TB has a surplus, I guessed Sonnanstine was going to be the one traded and missed badly, had we heard Jackson was available I would have been interested in flipping Hart or Hart + for him, as he's the type of ceiling guy I'm into. I wouldn't have guessed he'd pitch so well this season, I would have figured high 3s or very low 4s for an ERA, but again he had the power stuff and improving peripherals I'd be into. He's the type of guy I'd be looking for if I was Melvin, someone with plenty talent who's results haven't necessarily caught up with his talent but is trending positively.

 

I sort of like the Arrieta suggestion from the transaction forum, I'm just not sure Hardy would pull him. Arrieta is sort of a high risk/high reward type, but if his velocity is holding in the low 90s and it's true he's made strides with his change-up he's pretty exciting. I'd like that move even better if Maddux was around, he was very good simplifying mechanics and improving control, which is something Arrieta has struggled with some. I don't know enough about Bosio as a pitching coach to get a read on how he'd do with a player like that, but there's only one way to find out.

 

I guess my point is simply I'm not acquiring name players like Peavy or Halladay, nor am I into acquiring established successful young pitchers as most of them are staff aces and far too expensive to acquire. I'd be looking for guys with upside on the rise or players that I felt I could tinker mechanics and make a break through with. Arrieta is probably a 2 best case, just based on stuff, but as I've said many times I think solid #2s are the best value in baseball. Worst case Arrieta would be an above average bullpen arm.

 

The question of who's going to be available... that's a tough question to project right now, and one I don't think I could answer without the benefit of insider information, and I just don't have any connections in baseball circles.

[valpocrewsader]

I think you're wasting your time, lcbj68c. Not to be snarky, but I've gathered by now that Brewers fans -- while rooting for success -- are just supposed to be happy in the end that we even have a team and should feel super blessed on top of it because we have a roof. Real winning, and tradition, and dynasties, and division titles, and championships, and demanding excellence, and high expectations need to be reserved for other cities -- we're only Milwaukee. Honestly, that's the message I get.

 

I'm with you though. DM hasn't done anything special with this franchise and this year's performance and record are an absolute embarassment. The man's had several years to build, has had the benefit of top draft choices and some very cheap all-star talent, has had the benefit of top notch facilities and fan support, and more recently has had a reasonable or even generous payroll to work with. He's even benefited from being in a pretty mediocre division. In all that time, the team has had only one good season, largely aided by a rented mule that pitched like a freakish super-human demi-god for half a year. He's due some credit for that success, but he's also due blame for all the failures that surround that outlier of a season. Where we stand now in 2009 is a joke.

 

I've supported DM in the past, even on some deals that didn't work out like Linebrink and Riske. I've disagreed with him plenty, too. All that matters, though, is that he's been captaining this ship since 2002 and here in 2009 we're about to finish sub-.500. There's no way that's acceptable. If you're someone on the outside looking in at this situation, I think Melvin's job here looks very, very, very unimpressive.

[TooLiveBrew]

All that matters, though, is that he's been captaining this ship since 2002 and here in 2009 we're about to finish sub-.500. There's no way that's acceptable. If you're someone on the outside looking in at this situation, I think Melvin's job here looks very, very, very unimpressive.

 

Yeah, completely turning around a sorry franchise, netting the first playoff appearance in over a quarter-century... what a loser.

 

I just find the 'This season is unacceptable! He's had 7 seasons to build a winner!' line comical. Yeah! What has he done? Last year doesn't count, that didn't happen 15 minutes ago!

[MNBrew]

For big-market teams, teams with a lotta dough, they can turn over their personnel all the time to appease the media & masses everytime things start going badly (think: Mets, most especially). For teams like the Brewers, the mid- to smaller-market teams, there's quite a lot to be said for stability, in part because the margin for error (in personnel but especially in finances) can be so limited.

 

What I think that means is that there are going to be ups & downs along the way. And the downs are particularly depressing when they've followed such exciting success as last year's (however borderline-ish they got to nearly missing the playoffs). What I see as key to this is always keeping the big picture in mind. When that gets totally screwed up, then it's time to clean house entirely. But that's not the case right now. Right now, the sky is falling, and in an especially ugly way because our rotation is pitching horribly. In the long run, there are plenty of positives at this point. This ugly slump is pitching-driven and that's where improvement must happen.

 

As frustrating as this all is, the Brewers could pretty easily still be "within their window" with the present talent to be regular contenders. It will just take a small handful of exceedingly important decisions -- and some serious luck landing the right players -- to keep the Crew in the playoff chase at this point for the next few years. I do believe the knee-jerk reaction by people to want to can Doug Melvin to be totally normal, but hardly the right decision.

[DougJones43]

I just find the 'This season is unacceptable! He's had 7 seasons to build a winner!' line comical. Yeah! What has he done? Last year doesn't count, that didn't happen 15 minutes ago!

I guess I really don't see what's so comical about it. At some point, getting some consistent results matters to a lot of people. This year will most like end up being under .500. Next year looks somewhat bleak as well. The couple of years before 2008 were marred by epic collapses by his teams with a dunce of a manager.

 

Out of curiosity, how much failure do you think Melvin should be allotted based off 1 playoff appearance? This year is a failure. If next year is another losing season, will you still find it laughable to question him? I guess it's fine if you do, it's a difference in expectations. Some people think that the excuses, lack of opportunity, etc. validate Melvin, and some people are satisfied with because this franchise was so bad. That's your right, but it doesn't necessarily mean that people who have different expectations are wrong or laughable.

 

Many people feel Melvin has had a lot of resources at his disposal, and the ultimately the results need to be there for more than a one-year run. I mean wasn't that the goal all along? Think back to 2005 or so, when hopes were so high with all of the prospects making their way up. If somebody told you the buildup would lead to sneaking into the wildcard one season, losing in the first round, and then going back to under .500 baseball, would you have honestly been satisfied to hear that?? I wouldn't have.

 

 

edit:

one season is all I need to see to tell me a GM SUCKZ!...Yeah, completely turning around a sorry franchise, netting the first playoff appearance in over a quarter-century... what a loser...Yeah! What has he done? Last year doesn't count, that didn't happen 15 minutes ago!

This obnoxiousness -- and outright belittling of the perspective of other fans -- is getting pretty tiresome, TLB. I have a feeling that if condescension like this was coming from the other side of the debate, there would have been warnings thrown out.

[Invader3K]

I've said before, I'm willing to take a punt on this season. Things just didn't work out, and that's going to happen. Heck, it's happening with the Cubs and Red Sox and others this year, and they have much higher payrolls than Milwaukee. I will believe that Melvin did what he could to try and improve the team. A lot of people who seem to have more inside information on this board claim that Melvin was working down to the trade deadline wire, trying to procure a top tier pitcher. It just didn't work out. The cynics from before Opening Day were proved right that the rotation wasn't enough as constructed to get through the season. It's all basically water under the bridge at this point, though. We all know Suppan is crummy and that Bush's injury shouldn't have hamstrung the team as much as it did, but it's not like rehashing all of that changes much at this point.

 

What I won't accept, and I feel a lot of others won't accept...is if this off-season's approach is similar to the last one. I think the fan base deserves to see the team take another shot at the playoffs (an honest one with an honest rotation) after drawing over 6 million fans in two seasons. I think Attanasio has been a great owner so far, but it might be nice to see the team spend a bit over budget to put a real playoff caliber rotation together. Record ratings and attendance, a new TV deal, lots of sponsorships...there should be some money sitting around. They have the offense, they just need to improve the pitching staff. I would think the benefits of making the playoffs again would outweigh a relatively small financial loss in the long run.

[lcbj68c]

I think you're wasting your time, lcbj68c. Not to be snarky, but I've gathered by now that Brewers fans -- while rooting for success -- are just supposed to be happy in the end that we even have a team and should feel super blessed on top of it because we have a roof. Real winning, and tradition, and dynasties, and division titles, and championships, and demanding excellence, and high expectations need to be reserved for other cities -- we're only Milwaukee. Honestly, that's the message I get.

That's all I'm saying Matt. Very Well put. I'm not really talking about baseball moves, not really talking about prospective deals, what DM did or didnt do. I'm talking about the attitude change of management and the fans to stop making excuses for this team and it's general manager, all which amount to, "We're Milwaukee". I don't have the answers, I don't have trade ideas (I'm a cop, not a baseball general manager). It's so lame and a defeatist attitude, it's disgusting. I'm not a Rays fan, but living here and watching Freidman work what was expotentially a worse situation than Milwaukee into a work of art, without hearing the fans say, "We're Tampa" is refreshing. Unfortunately, it's not about what DM does or doesn't do, IMO, it's about the winning attitude and drive that I feel he projects with these constant excuses he backs up by saying, "We tried hard, but in the end, the system got us, "We're Milwaukee". Makes me want to throw up in my mouth. Thanks Matt for suming up my thoughts in a well-written paragraph.

[FVBrewerFan]

Well put Invader. I was real upset for a couple weeks, but now accept the fact it just didn't work out this year. However, if they start 2010 with the same rotation, or tweek it by adding yet another #4 or #5 type starter there's no excuse for that.

 

History repeates itself, and I see the Cleveland Indians all over again. A team in a small market builds a shiny new stadium, the fans come in masses to see a good team. But they were never able to close the deal. The Brewers are headed down that same path. They have two more years of Fielder, and they need to make a legit run in that window. And the only way that happens is adding at least one, and probably two very good starting pitchers. That's not easy, but nobody said being the GM of a MLB team is easy.

[giffted1]

That's all I'm saying Matt. Very Well put. I'm not really talking about baseball moves, not really talking about prospective deals, what DM did or didnt do. I'm talking about the attitude change of management and the fans to stop making excuses for this team and it's general manager, all which amount to, "We're Milwaukee".

I get the feeling that this attitude change equates to throwing money at the top free agents. That philosophy may bring us a playoff appearance, but it'll also cripple the franchise when our big winner eventually declines or gets hurt.

I'm not a Rays fan, but living here and watching Freidman work what was expotentially a worse situation than Milwaukee into a work of art, without hearing the fans say, "We're Tampa" is refreshing. Unfortunately, it's not about what DM does or doesn't do, IMO, it's about the winning attitude and drive that I feel he projects with these constant excuses he backs up by saying, "We tried hard, but in the end, the system got us, "We're Milwaukee". Makes me want to throw up in my mouth.

1. How many other teams have turned their franchise around like the Rays?

2. What Ray's fans? They're some of the most apathetic fans in the league and you want us to be more like them?

3. You're the only person saying some of this stuff, so if it makes you sick, stop it. Help yourself, dude.

[lcbj68c]

It has nothing to do with money..do you even read the posts or just skim them? I said...I'm not inclined to spend $210M. The $68M well spent by Tampa in 2008 for their American League Championship Pennant is plenty. There is a difference between being a Tampa resident and being a Tampa Bay Rays fan. Tampa residents are apathetic in that they don't come to the park and support the team. Rays fans that do show up don't sit around and wallow in mediocrity and use the payroll, and the crap dump that is Tropicana field as excuses to why they can't see winning baseball. "We're Tampa" isn't the mindset here. I don't understand why that's the penultimate goal around here is to make up reasons why Milwaukee can't succeed. Matt's assumption that most fans are just giddy that the team wasn't contracted and the stadium has a roof seems pretty accurate. With that, I'm out on this topic. I'm obviously alone in my beliefs, won't change the standard of medocrity with my thoughts, and repliers don't even read the arguments before replying, making the issue about money and moves, which I've said time and time against isn't the problem.

[giffted1]

It has nothing to do with money..do you even read the posts or just skim them? I said...I'm not inclined to spend $210M. The $68M well spent by Tampa in 2008 for their American League Championship Pennant is plenty.

The only excuse (or acknowledgment of reality) being made is that we don't have the money to buy pitching like other teams. You've been complaining about these excuses. So either it is actually about money, or you've spent your time complaining about non-existent excuses.

There is a difference between being a Tampa resident and being a Tampa Bay Rays fan. Tampa residents are apathetic in that they don't come to the park and support the team. Rays fans that do show up don't sit around and wallow in mediocrity and use the payroll, and the crap dump that is Tropicana field as excuses to why they can't see winning baseball.

They did these things before they started winning, and fans are still using the the stadium as a reason not to go to the game. The Rays didn't become good because the fans thought to themselves "hey guys, we can go to the World Series" or because management decided they should stop being mediocre. They became good because they had a loaded minor league system after years of sucking and picking high in drafts.

"We're Tampa" isn't the mindset here.

Of course not. It's "We're Milwaukee."

I don't understand why that's the penultimate goal around here is to make up reasons why Milwaukee can't succeed.

You've been the only one making up reasons why Milwaukee can't succeed.

With that, I'm out on this topic. I'm obviously alone in my beliefs, won't change the standard of medocrity with my thoughts, and repliers don't even read the arguments before replying, making the issue about money and moves, which I've said time and time against isn't the problem.

I guess we figured you must have been arguing about something real. There is no standard of mediocrity, as evidenced by our playoff appearance only a year ago. You need quite a bit more time than a year to establish a standard.

[MJLiverock]

Geez TLB and AKA Pete is Doug Melvin your Dad? Serisously, why is it any hint of critcisim or dissatisifaction of Melvin is met with such derision and indignation. I dont' know what deals he could have done, I am not the GM I trade stocks for a living. I do know what the results have been. Last year was fanstastic, and I know going into this year the playoffs were a pipedream. We all heard how the great Doug Melvin would pull a rabbit out of the hat at deadline time and get a pitcher to put them over the top. Well the results were the team looked so bad it wasn't worth it. Then the excuses were nobody wants to trade pitching, but deals happend in season and out of season. Now it's teams paid too much. Talent isn't free but, I believe the Phillies stole Lee from the Indians because I think getting low A pitchers is a huge risk - - look at the Brewer's own results in trying to develp guys from low A to the majors. Even on the batting side when the Cardinals acquired Holliday people cried how could they give up AAA guy like Wallace for Holliday. Yet as the Cardinals run away with the division and Holliday mashes behind Pujols the Cardinals fans are pretty happy. Wallace may turn out to be a total bust, who knows, or the Cardinals may just fill 3B some other way. Point is that it isn't the end of the world if a team trades minor league talent to fill holes in the oranization and to do that a team has to be willing to trade some talented guys.

 

Yeah, I acknowledged he got CC, it was a no brainer. A team and fanbase dying for a playoff appearance after 26 years of futility and 6 or 7 years of just wait til this wave of prospects gets here. Sabathia was a rental, everyone knew it, and all he gave up was a position player who was blocked at the big league level by our two best players. I applaud him for doing it, but it wasnt' like he took a huge risk. That is my problem with him, I dont' think he is a risk taker. Taking risk doesn't mean crazy Vernon Wells deals or bad deals it means taking calculated risk which will involve trading top talent for top talent. That may require giving up top prospects for pitching that is in the upper minors, something Melvin has not seemed willing to do. Other than LaPorta he has held on to every top prospect he could to the extent of the Bill Hall extension when he had no position becaue of Hardy being deemed SS of the Future and Weeks 2B of the future, and Braun 3B of the Future. Now he has the Hardy Escobar situation, I don't blame him for failing to predict Hardy's struggles this year but it could be he ends up getting burned by hanging on too long again and that is where Melvin has to face the music if the results continue to suffer.

 

A team in Milwaukee's situation has to take some risk, they can't just sit back and wait for one sided deals to fall in their lap or get lucky on scrap heap reclamations. Everytime someone defends Melvin with the "what would you do line" it is condescending. No one knows what deals he turned down, or didn't make, or even thought of, but we all know the results are a terrrible terrible pitching staff. I even acknowledged I wouldn't fire him after this year, but the window is closing on this wave and there will be a lull before any of the pitching they have in the minors is ready if they ever are. During that time Fielder will most likely leave and the team will have to fill in the offense for him, find a CF to replace an .800 OPSing Cameron, find a RF and a 1B. Gamel will fill something in but unlikely he will equal Fielder's production and I dont' think Cain will be as good as Cameron. So I am afraid the offense will wither while the pitching still won't be any better in 2 years.

 

I and many others don't want to suffer through 3 or 4 years of mediocre baseball again with the promise of wait til the prospects get here. That woud mean 1 playoff appearence in 10 or 11 years of Melvin's tenure, not really impressive. So the fact that some people are not totally enamored with Melvin's performance isn't outlandish or unfair. As I said earlier if he goes into next season with Gallardo and four designated rotation stooges, people are going be upset with another sub 500 season.

 

He is in a tight spot but he got himself there and I admit I dont' know what trades to make because I am not the GM but accountability for poor records has to fall on someone. Saying this guy didn't pan out or that guy wasn't as good as thought etc. are not acceptable excuses, it is his job to deal with those issues. If I buy my client 20 stocks and 15 are great but 5 are so bad they make my client lose more money than the market I might get fired, I will certainly hear it from my clients and using a defense of I didn't know they were going to commit fraud or I really thought Pets.com was a good company doesn't excuse the actual performance.

 

A growing fanbase is concerned about the future because the pitching is so bleak for the next few years as the current situation stands and the only person responsible is Melvin because that is his job. Nobody hates the guy but status quo and excuses aren't acceptable to some either.

[Baldkin]

So, what was everyone saying on the 4th of July when the Brewers were 5 games over .500 and in first place?

How was the "mediocre" rotation treating the team then? Had Melvin not put together a winner?

 

They went into the season knowing that if more than 1 starting pitcher got hurt -- they had McClung as a 6th starter -- they were going to have a tough time of it.

Am I happy with an under .500 season? No, I'm not... but in their "World Series" run how many injuries to starting pitchers did the Rays have to deal with?

3 of them being out for more than a month each? Their two super durable 200 innings a year pitchers included.

 

Their #3 starting pitcher having the worst season by a full time starter in MLB?

No, don't think they had that either.

 

"It happens."

And it happened to the Brewers this year. The team is still hovering around .500 and if the Cardinals weren't playing out of their minds the Brewers would be right in a divisional race in September.

[DougJones43]

So, what was everyone saying on the 4th of July when the Brewers were 5 games over .500 and in first place?

How was the "mediocre" rotation treating the team then? Had Melvin not put together a winner?

The 2004 Brewers were 5 games over .500 on July 6th of that year. Doesn't really mean much. That club certainly wasn't any good -- they finished 67-94. Success needs to happen for a full season to prove/mean anything.

 

And as a side note, there were people who were concerned about the rotation even when the team was doing okay.

[lcbj68c]

So Erin, the Rays didn't plan for success, nor have a 9=8 attitude from the start from Maddon on down, it just simply fell into their lap? Had it not been for the fact that the Rays ($62M) are 12 games over .500, (Red Sox .583 ($122M) and Yankees .639 ($206M), I'd be more apt to believe it was luck driven. The Brewers certainly had some injury issues, but it remains that they were not put in a position to succeed from the start and seemingly aren't being put in a winners mentality for the next 2-3 seasons. Had it not been for a Sabathia playing over his head in 2008, it'd be 27 years and counting. It's time to stop masking the defiencies of this team on injuries and cold weather excuses, and place it squarely on mismanaged payroll and management philosophies.

[SoCalBrewfan]

I do think however that it does say something about character, no? Whatever happened to the attitude of "Come Hell or High Water, we're going to get the job done!"? It just doesn't run deep with this management system and it seems to have rubbed off on some of the fan base.

 

I don't think you're in any position to comment on the character of a bunch of people based on what they write here. If anything, I think more of the character of people who are able to be thoughtful and moderate about sports and argue their position without insulting the person they disagree with. But if you want to think less of my character as a result, I think I'll find a way to go on without your approval. Somehow.

 

2008 American League Champions found a way to get the job done. Then, in 2009, weren't satisfied, but added to team and continued to set themselves up to be better..not subtracted.

 

You keep talking about TB as a model. I like what the TB regime has done of late, but let's be honest here...this is a franchise that's surpassed 70 wins exactly twice. Whether they can maintain long-term success, particularly without the benefit of annual top-5 draft position, remains to be seen. It's hard to see any team that's been a year-in-year-out contender while staying in the bottom tier of payrolls. The Twins and A's, probably the two best examples, have had a lot of ups and downs. So what does a down year tell you? Is Billy Beane now a loser?

 

And as for their offseason proving something...I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to. What are those big TB moves that added rather than subtracted? I see additions of Burrell, Shouse, and what, Randy Choate? Gabe Kapler? Subtractions Edwin Jackson, Hammel, Floyd, Hinske. (Now they've sent out Kazmir as well.) I don't know that it is a clear net win in terms of talent. The big add, Burrell, was a move I liked, but that hasn't worked well so far...Cliff Floyd in 08 was better than Burrell this year. Is that the plan you're holding up to show how Tampa is smarter, or rather how they don't accept mediocrity? 2/$16 to Burrell and sign some ex-Brewers?

 

Ultimately I guess I just don't get what you're arguing. It seems to be all about attitude, and apparently of the fans as much as of the team management. OK, we can all pound the table next to our keyboard and refuse to accept mediocrity. Raaar. Better?

 

It's a lost season for this team, which stinks. It's particularly stinky to see great years by some of our key guys 'wasted' due to a poor surrounding cast. It might well get some people fired, or rather some more people as it already has cost Castro his job. I think the demotion of Hardy and the dumping of Hall suggests that there will be some changes this offseason....I don't know how else you read those moves.

 

Melvin has strengths and weaknesses as a GM. He's neither the second coming of Branch Rickey nor a total failure. Even the past year he's made some nice specific moves (Hoffman, Coffey, McGehee) but this has to be viewed as his biggest failure in Milwaukee given the expectations. He may well be coming to the end of the line here...if we don't get more playoffs out of the Prince Fielder era it's a big disappointment, and Melvin knows as well as anyone that the boss could justify pulling the plug after this year. But however that goes, Braun and Gallardo will be around for a while yet whatever happens to Prince, so the near term future of the team is still promising. I'm personally glad they didn't gut the farm system again for a midseason deal, given the breakdowns in the rotation and the issues with Weeks, Hall, Hart, Hardy.

[Teatoe993]

I don't think anyone is using cold weather as an excuse. The fact of the matter is that the majority of baseball players come from California, Florida, Texas, etc. In many peoples eyes, Milwaukee and pretty much any other midwestern city outside of Chicago is a crummy place to live for 6/7 months a year compared to the bigger metro areas. There will always be a number of free agents out there who won't sign with these teams no matter how much cash you throw on the table.

[Baldkin]

Luke, you and I will have to disagree on whether they were put in a spot to succeed at the start.

 

I thought they were an 85-86 win team this year, which was more than good enough to compete in the division. I couldn't have predicted both Suppan and Bush getting hurt and Parra pitching like Jose Lima, though.

[SoCalBrewfan]

News about the Rays, and their winning ways http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif :

 

http://www.baseballthinkf...bomb_at_tropicana_field/

 

A Tampa Bay Rays employee was arrested before Wednesday's game with the Boston Red Sox and accused of planting what appeared to be a fake bomb at Tropicana Field, police said.

 

William L. Jordan, 38, was arrested on a charge of planting a hoax device. He is a mechanic with the team and built and hid the device as part of a "practical joke," the St. Petersburg Police Department said.

 

"His actions were in very poor taste and do not reflect the values of the organization," Rays vice president Rick Vaughn wrote in an e-mail.

 

It is also nice to see Rick Vaughn still in baseball...

[pete]

Geez TLB and AKA Pete is Doug Melvin your Dad? Serisously, why is it any hint of critcisim or dissatisifaction of Melvin is met with such derision and indignation.

 

Excuse me? Who are you? I wasn't derisive and there wasn't anything in the platitudes and cliches to be indignant over. I pointed things out. If you don't like that and want to just holler and stomp your feet and demand a world series, its okay with me.

 

I dont' know what deals he could have done, I am not the GM I trade stocks for a living.

 

So all that matters is results. How many WS wins does any team have to have in what number of years to meet your requirements?

 

Point is that it isn't the end of the world if a team trades minor league talent to fill holes in the oranization and to do that a team has to be willing to trade some talented guys.

 

This sounds like you wanted to go for it this year and accept many losing seasons.

 

That is my problem with him, I dont' think he is a risk taker. Taking risk doesn't mean crazy Vernon Wells deals or bad deals it means taking calculated risk which will involve trading top talent for top talent. That may require giving up top prospects for pitching that is in the upper minors, something Melvin has not seemed willing to do.

 

It sounds to me like he has been willing. Just because fans imagine trades happening, doesn't mean they're possible. And "calculated risks" are viewed as bad or crazy when they don't work out. Again, you sound like you want Attanasio to go for a WS even if it means years of low attendance and losing.

 

I don't blame him for failing to predict Hardy's struggles this year but it could be he ends up getting burned by hanging on too long again and that is where Melvin has to face the music if the results continue to suffer.

 

He's been shopping Hardy for at least a year. I'd guess one of the pitchers he was offered was Jonathon Sanchez. He's being taken out of the rotation now. I can only imagine the attacks on him if he did that deal. And here's a shocker: GMs and other people in baseball don't evaluate players based on their most recent performance or the latest fashionable metric. Hardy still has a high value no matter how much hate there is for the guy here.

 

They can't just sit back and wait for one sided deals to fall in their lap or get lucky on scrap heap reclamations.

 

Based on public comments, they aren't. Do you have inside information or is it your feeling that this is true?

 

Everytime someone defends Melvin with the "what would you do line" it is condescending.

 

There is nothing remotely condescending about it. Maybe you're working with a different definition. Its common sense. You talk as if you are absolutely certain about a variety of aspects of his personality and the business affairs of the Brewers.

 

I am afraid the offense will wither while the pitching still won't be any better in 2 years.

 

So you're saying they should have traded away the better prospects to go for it. I don't think that's a good business strategy. I suspect if Melvin asked to do what you wanted, Mark A. would have stopped him.

 

If I buy my client 20 stocks and 15 are great but 5 are so bad they make my client lose more money than the market I might get fired, I will certainly hear it from my clients and using a defense of I didn't know they were going to commit fraud or I really thought Pets.com was a good company doesn't excuse the actual performance.

 

Your standard, not losing money, is different than his standard, trying to be the best out of 30 teams. Even with the different standards, I suspect you've had clients whose portfolios didn't increase in value even with the gross distortions in the money supply.

 

Nobody hates the guy but status quo and excuses aren't acceptable to some either.

 

Some people sound like they hate the guy. Do you understand the difference between an excuse and a reason?