Unrealistic Expectations for improving our team

[mletto157]

Mr QL - were you a Brewers fan in the early 2000's? When DM took over, this team was a joke. I can remember t-shirts that said "Bring baseball back to Milwaukee!" If you can honestly look at the MLB roster and the farm system depth from the day he took over and compare that to what we've had during his tenure and still say his entire philosophy is flawed than you must really not remember those years. The Crew has come along way since then. We needed offense as much as or more than we needed pitching.

 

First and foremost DM needed to get fans in the seats. The fans coming to the games allow for a higher payroll and a more competitive roster. Big hitters are sexy, so he got his big hitters and offensive talent a plenty through the drafts immediately following his hire. Once the fans had players to make them come to the games and the team was at least respectable, he could focus on drafting pitchers. And what do you know... the last 2-3 years he has since focused a lot more on getting and developing pitchers. Give him a few more years to see the fruits of his labor. Our farm system (especially AA and below) is pretty balanced and competitive right now, I believe the Brewers will soon be there as well.

 

EDIT: Formatting

[clancyphile]

2007 - Suppan, Bush, Capuano(injured), Sheets, Vargas, Gallardo.

 

This is where it started to go wrong, the bad contract for Suppan, Capuano and Sheets getting hurt pretty much killed the pitching this season though we had Gallardo stepping in to help out.

Even more wrong: Doug Davis was traded that off-season, which is COMPLETELY on Doug Melvin.

[Ennder]

Even more wrong: Doug Davis was traded that off-season, which is COMPLETELY on Doug Melvin.

I dunno, his ERA was bad the last year we had him and his peripherals were always bad. He might be one of those examples of LOB% being a skill for some pitchers or it might just be he has been a bit lucky in his career but I still don't think much of Davis. He was gone after the season anyway so hard to point to that as a long term issue.

[TooLiveBrew]

That's actually a case of Melvin parting ways with a soft-tosser whose stuff isn't that great... something he supposedly isn't able to do.

[Invader3K]

I think the Davis trade was a solid gamble...they tried to upgrade the catching position, it just didn't work out. I know some were hesitant about Estrada, but I don't think anyone knew how relatively lousy he'd be that year.

[MNBrew]

The Estrada trade made lots of sense at the time. Estrada had been quite productive as a hitter, and Davis was said to want/expect a very Brewers-UNfriendly salary the next year (an arby year, right?). It just didn't pan out nearly as well as hoped.

[TheCrew07]

Davis is a guy who's always outpitched his stuff and peripherals except for that crappy season in Milwaukee right before he was traded when I saw him pitch 4 times in one year and I ended up hating him. He pissed me off so much on Apr 23, 2006 when he walked 9 batters that I never recovered and was happy when he was moved.

 

I tend to not trust pitchers like Davis to keep it going and I marvel at how he manages to keep his K/9 up around 7.0 given how much his BB/9 fluctuates from year to year (mostly slowly regressing). He's a guy that had 1 pitch save his career like DiFelice.

[logan82]

Davis threatened to go to arbitration unless he got a 3 year deal I believe. He wanted a long term deal after coming off a bad year.

[Mr QL]

Mr QL - were you a Brewers fan in the early 2000's? When DM took over, this team was a joke. I can remember t-shirts that said "Bring baseball back to Milwaukee!" If you can honestly look at the MLB roster and the farm system depth from the day he took over and compare that to what we've had during his tenure and still say his entire philosophy is flawed than you must really not remember those years. The Crew has come along way since then. We needed offense as much as or more than we needed pitching.

 

First and foremost DM needed to get fans in the seats. The fans coming to the games allow for a higher payroll and a more competitive roster. Big hitters are sexy, so he got his big hitters and offensive talent a plenty through the drafts immediately following his hire. Once the fans had players to make them come to the games and the team was at least respectable, he could focus on drafting pitchers. And what do you know... the last 2-3 years he has since focused a lot more on getting and developing pitchers. Give him a few more years to see the fruits of his labor. Our farm system (especially AA and below) is pretty balanced and competitive right now, I believe the Brewers will soon be there as well.

 

EDIT: Formatting

By that argument Ned Yost should still be manager.

[Invader3K]

What does Yost have to do with the improved attendance and farm system?

[lcbj68c]

Like the other Doug Melvin thread, this thread is just a bunch of excuses about why it's okay for the Milwaukee Brewers to be mediocre. "Poor Midwestern town with no money, where it snows, and nobody like to visit or live".... :Cue up the tears and runny noses:

 

If the best we can do is wallow in being mediocrity, why don't we just implore the commissioner's office to contract the Milwaukee Brewers and save us all the time, money, and heartache.

 

I prefer the other method....the one where GM's and other people involved in this organization pull themselves up by the boot straps and start being held accountable for misuse of the payroll and player acquisitions. When the going gets tough, are we going to "coddle the general manager, because well...players don't like to come to Milwaukee", or "find somebody who doesn't care about those limitations and just get the job done" Enough with the excuses already. You think Tampa is any better of a free agent loveable city or a baseball town? Hardly...yet, the general manager there got it done and they have a Pennant to speak of. This season, they are some 16 wins better than the Brewers. Eventuallly, the excuses get old. If it's so difficult to change the landscape of this team, let's just contract this team and give up?

[mletto157]

By that argument Ned Yost should still be manager.

 

I was talking about the relative talent levels on the roster and farm system now compared with then; the attendance levels now compared with then; etc... Ned Yost has nothing to do with this arguement.

 

Like the other Doug Melvin thread, this thread is just a bunch of excuses about why it's okay for the Milwaukee Brewers to be mediocre.

 

No, this is a thread about people having unrealistic expectations about an improving team. I believe your post pretty much summed up the reason why this thread was made.

[MJLiverock]

I think what MrQL and to a degree lcbj68c are getting at is the team cannot rest on its laurels of one post season appearance. Everytime a criticism of Melvin is met with "but look how bad they were when he got here" as the reason to keep him and never consider a change drives me crazy. The Ned Yost reference was perfect - - just because he helped turn things around doesn't guarantee a job for life no matter what happens or how many mistakes are made.

 

I don't think he needs to be fired after this year but the leash is getting shorter. Expectation levels have been raised, no longer should the mantra be lets hope for .500. That isn't going to keep drawing 3 million fans. Some guys are meant to be turn around specialists and others for getting a team over the hump and into championship caliber. I don't know which Melvin is, if either of just those two choices, but ownership and fans won't put up with digging up old successes vs. current failures forever or relying on the "wait til next year" mentality. That is what the Cubs are for.

[mletto157]

All Ned Yost did was allow his younger, very talanted players to play over the crappy guys that were on the team - even when they struggled. Most managers would have probably benched JJ and Rickie long before Ned did. That's why he was the guy to get this team to where he got them to; but that's also why he couldn't take them any further. We needed a manager that knew how to win (not saying we found him), not one willing to live with his talanted players when they're not producing because he knows they are the future.

 

Doug is an entirely different story because his talent evaluation is what got the players for the manager to develop. He knew what the fans needed to start coming to games - and got them big in Prince and Braun. After the fans were coming he's started focusing on pitching. As I said, the farm system we have is pretty talanted and balanced. Once these players start coming up we'll see this balance at the MLB level. Good talent evaluation can take you as far as you need to go; and that's why I think DM can take the Brewers to the next level as well.

[lcbj68c]

 

Like the other Doug Melvin thread, this thread is just a bunch of excuses about why it's okay for the Milwaukee Brewers to be mediocre.

 

No, this is a thread about people having unrealistic expectations about an improving team. I believe your post pretty much summed up the reason why this thread was made.

 

No, it isn't. I've read it over pretty good and I'm convinced it's a whine and grovel thread about expecting mediocrity. The author and the supporting cast have some overwhelming beliefs that some of us think we should win 100 games every year and spend $120M. That's not what we're saying. What I am saying, is if you sit back and use these same old excuses, what's the point of having a baseball team? Gosh, if it's so hard to overcome, why get into the game? If it's so hard to build a competitive baseball team year in and year out, why bother? I can't support this line of thinking. It's not because I have unrealistic expectations...it's because I don't believe in giving up, settling, or being mediocre. My expectations are to spend money wisely, be fiscally responsible, have accountability and be generally better. This thread is more about who you are as a person and a fan. Is it so much of an unrealistic expectation to want and demand better... Especially when you see franchises like...the Tampa Bay Rays getting it done?

[DougJones43]

Once these players start coming up we'll see this balance at the MLB level.

This is exactly what we heard about the last wave of players though. "The team will be good and balanced any day now, wait til 2011" just isn't good enough anymore. After 7 years as GM, it's been long enough that it should be happening by now. At some point, the results need to actually come to fruition at the major league level -- and it needs to be better than a one-year run followed by a sub-.500 season.

[Roderick]

You think Tampa is any better of a free agent loveable city

Actually I don't think Florida has a state income tax. Since you pay the income tax by where the game is held, when half of your games are in Florida that is quite a bit of state income tax saved. A very big thing for a free agent looking for the most dough.

[Teatoe993]

Palm trees probably help too.

[endaround]

Florida is like the number one state for players to live. If the Marlins ever got their act together they would be a #1 FA destination and Tampa isn't far behind.

[sheethead]

Florida is like the number one state for players to live. If the Marlins ever got their act together they would be a #1 FA destination and Tampa isn't far behind.

Good thing those two clubs are handcuffed by an apathetic fanbase.

[mletto157]

I guess I did see this wave of players come in and make the Brewers 10x the team they were before DM and these drafts. However, at the time they needed fans - and fans like offense. Once they got the fans they started drafting pitchers more... this is the point I'm trying to make. When building a franchise from the ground up, you have to start with something that's going to get fans to come to the games every day. Once you have enough fans to make money you can focus on the other team needs. This is where the Brewers were about 2-3 years ago when they started drafting pitchers. This is at least the way I'm thinking - and honestly I don't see a flaw in that. This is a business, and in order for it to succeed you need fans to spend their money.

 

I completely want to see the Brewers do better, but the realistic expectation is that it can't happen overnight like in other markets. It most likely will have to come through the draft (which has definitely proven to be effective so far), aging veterans, or a buy low cantidate coming off a down year or a few down years. I believe last year was great for the fanbase and if DM sticks around there will be more of those to come. Remember the last time the Brewers made the playoffs before last year was 26 years ago. If DM makes the playoffs twice in even a 5 year span that will already trump anything any other GM they've had has done. And I honestly think he can do even better than that and at least make them a perennial playoff contender.

 

EDIT: I guess I just don't see another GM coming in and all of a sudden making things much different. Nobody can predict the future so bad contracts are going to happen no matter who's at the helm. The less they play in the free agent market, the less bad contracts they'll give out and Melvin has done a pretty good job through the drafts. I think he's a good fit for this team.

[giffted1]

Like the other Doug Melvin thread, this thread is just a bunch of excuses about why it's okay for the Milwaukee Brewers to be mediocre. "Poor Midwestern town with no money, where it snows, and nobody like to visit or live".... :Cue up the tears and runny noses:

Maybe you should read some of the posts before trashing the thread. That is really not even close to the point.

If the best we can do is wallow in being mediocrity, why don't we just implore the commissioner's office to contract the Milwaukee Brewers and save us all the time, money, and heartache.

One year removed from the playoffs = wallowing in mediocrity? Come on.

I prefer the other method....the one where GM's and other people involved in this organization pull themselves up by the boot straps and start being held accountable for misuse of the payroll and player acquisitions. When the going gets tough, are we going to "coddle the general manager, because well...players don't like to come to Milwaukee", or "find somebody who doesn't care about those limitations and just get the job done"

So you want a guy that ignores the limitations of a small market team and takes it from the cellar to the playoffs? I know a guy like that.

Enough with the excuses already. You think Tampa is any better of a free agent loveable city or a baseball town? Hardly...yet, the general manager there got it done and they have a Pennant to speak of. This season, they are some 16 wins better than the Brewers. Eventuallly, the excuses get old. If it's so difficult to change the landscape of this team, let's just contract this team and give up?

I think free agents would love to live in Florida all year round.

Is it so much of an unrealistic expectation to want and demand better... Especially when you see franchises like...the Tampa Bay Rays getting it done?

And why was the Rays World Series appearance so remarkable? Because it was highly improbable. Demanding that we emulate one of the biggest turnarounds by a baseball franchise in recent history is the definition of unrealistic expectations.

[SoCalBrewfan]

. This thread is more about who you are as a person and a fan.

 

I see. So some of the posters with whom you disagree are lesser fans? Or lesser, substandard people?

 

I really disagree. The whole point of this board, to my way of thinking, is that we can discuss, and disagree about, a baseball team without insulting each other, without calling one another whiners, fair-weather fans, whatever.

[MJLiverock]

Wallowing in medioctrity is where this team will be with zero pitching like this year. Now, I think some this is a little venting and some is a little I told you so but there were some seriously inflated expectations by some fans going into this season. Plenty of 90+ win predicitons in that old thread and plenty of, "well losing Sheets and Sabathia is only going to mean a few wins and the offense will pick that up" type comments. Or the team will be in it and Melvin will nab a guy at the deadline to finish out the year.

 

Others myself included, saw a team with a very questionable rotation and have been upset with Melvin's seemingly indifference to it or his public facade that it isn't that bad. He got all pissy along with some people here when Braun insinuated the rotation needed help. He has whined a bit about deals not out there or teams not trading guys, yet Kazmir gets traded, Cliff Lee gets traded, Peavey went, etc. and in the offseason we have seen trades happen. They may not have been garbage for talent like Melvin seems to look for but he can't go around saying no one is willing to trade. It was probably the smart thing to not make a trade at the deadline because the rotation was so awful at this point it wasn't realistic to think they had a shot. I happen to think the Phillies got a steal in the Lee trade so that one may have been worth it since he would be around next year as well. This was a great example of a team with a very potent offense realizing they had a shot at a WS title not only this year but next and willing to seize the opportunity without resting on the laurels of last year's victory.

 

I admit I admire the Marlins and their titles and somehow being competitive even in the rebuilding years. The A's and Twins tried to go half way and have failed to win titles and partially due to only going half way, not willing to go all in to win. I would rather win a title now and then rather than be an average .500 team year in and year out.

 

Melvin is starting to sound defensive and awful quick with the excuses when it comes to the pitching staff and I just don't buy some of the excuses. Suppan getting hurt really didn't matter, he isn't that good and doesn't pitch deep into games. Bush hurt some but again, he isn't CC Sabathia.

 

If Melvin goes into next season with a ragtag staff again the results will be the same, sub 500 hoping to hit 500 and no playoffs or much of a chase. We all heard about wait until the wave of Fielder, Hardy, Weeks, Hart, get here. They did we made one playoff appearance and appear to have taken a step back. The next wave mentioned of Gindel, Schaefer, Cain, Lawrie, LuCroy, Gamel, Escobar is starting but again no pitchers and frankly unlikely any Fielders or Brauns in that mix. It is likely 4 years before any of the pitchers in A ball contribute meaningfully. In most cases 2-3 years before hitting the majors and a 1+ in the majors before being able to pitch 175+ innings.

 

So what are the Brewers going to do in the meantime? Suffer through Gallardo and 3 or 4 designated rotation stooges? That is the question some of the non Melvin apologists are asking. Does Melvin have the stones to make a deal or is he going to go with is usual M.O. of sifting through the scrap pile while telling everyone it'll be OK, or if it isn't, it is just bad luck not bad talent. Melvin did a good job of making the obvious move last year and going in to get Sabathia, but I question whether he is willing to make moves by giving up talent to shore up the gaping hole that is the pitching staff for the coming couple years.

 

So I believe it isn't unrealistic to think there are plenty of questions and problems with the Brewers right now and can see a scenario where mediocrity is the result for a few years. In which case Melvin will have squandered the window of opportunity presented by the wave of prospects that he always pointed to as the future.

[pete]

Others... have been upset with Melvin's seemingly indifference to it or his public facade that it isn't that bad. He got all pissy along with some people here when Braun insinuated the rotation needed help. He has whined a bit about deals not out there or teams not trading guys, yet Kazmir gets traded, Cliff Lee gets traded, Peavey went, etc. and in the offseason we have seen trades happen.

[snip]

So what are the Brewers going to do in the meantime? [snip] That is the question some of the non Melvin apologists are asking. Does Melvin have the stones to make a deal...

 

Usually people who say that they wanted him to "just do it" or similar don't make suggestions or at least realistic ones. Melvin can't create something out of nothing. Out of all his options, only one or two would have benefitted the team and he can't see the future.

 

The choices you suggest are radical. Peavy is extremely expensive. Others would have had a high cost in dollars and/or prospects. If it meant going for it for a year or two and then blowing the whole thing up and being really bad for 5, 6 or 7 years, is that acceptable to you? I don't like that idea. I don't think that's evidence of having "stones." I think its a crummy way to run a franchise. Financially, I'd guess it would be stupid. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Worrying about how he talks in a radio interview, particularly given the volume of non-sensical criticism is a waste of emotion and energy. If you really think he is indifferent, I think you should reassess.