Lucroy and Salome in 2010

[coach32sm]

I meant to say 110 or so

[coach32sm]

Nonsensical and non research, well in 2005 he caught 133 games, I think thats more than 110, or am i wrong. You fans are absurd with your attacking by the way. Ease up, maybe the players you criticize so brutally will relax and play better not being scrutinized and you might win a title. anyway, Zaun should catch somewhere between 100-110 games and it's a bit foolish to play a rookeis prospect only 50 games, if so I would think it would be Angel, with Lucroy developing and playing EVERY DAY in AAA "Coach" Also, how do you get the paragraphs to be more readable? I forgot!!!!

[trwi7]

The idea they plan to play him 140 is nonsensical and shows a lack of research, in my opinion.

Zaun himself said this.

 

"I'm in better shape now than I was when I was 28. Obviously, things change in this game quickly. But I'm ready to catch four out of every five starters. That's the indication I was given."

Link

 

Four out of every five starters is 80% of the games which is 130 games in a season.

 

So clearly it was you who showed a lack of research since that took me about 20 seconds to find.

[thebruce44]

Zaun has not played over 110 games ever. The idea they plan to play him 140 is nonsensical and shows a lack of research, in my opinion.

It really is easy to be a jerk when you can just do it over the internet and not to someone's face. Yea, 140 is a bit much, but with the way the Brewers seem to like running one guy out there, its not unheard of for Zaun to be on pace for around 130 starts if Rivera is the backup. If the kids are struggling and don't get called up at all, he may very well finish the year in that roll.

[monkeyman343434]

It really is easy to be a jerk when you can just do it over the internet and not to someone's face. Yea, 140 is a bit much, but with the way the Brewers seem to like running one guy out there, its not unheard of for Zaun to be on pace for around 130 starts if Rivera is the backup. If the kids are struggling and don't get called up at all, he may very well finish the year in that roll.

"It really is easy to be a jerk when you can just do it over the internet" No kidding, what has ever happened to any RESPECT on this message over the last couple of years? I'm 23 and have been an avid reader for 6 years now, when I first went away to college. The one thing that really drew me to this board were the intelligent people and respect people gave each other, as well as the proper grammer instead of "internet lingo." Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you have to be a complete jerk to them. Why can't you just politely point out where you agree with them and have a normal conversation instead of all this mud-slinging going on. It's unreal. That's what was so special about this board (to me at least) about 3-4 years ago, people had good conversations and debates even though they didn't agree 100% with each other. Childish. Unreal. Sickening.

[thebruce44]

Dadofandrew has always had sort of a condescending tone to his posts, but that was a new high, or low I supose.

[monkeyman343434]

Sorry, I didn't mean to include "Dadofandrew"s part of your quote with what i was quoting. I really wanted to just get that first line you said, because I think that nails it right on the head. It's so easy to be a jerk over the internet, but for what? We're getting very interesting inside information from both coach and agent39, but yet everyone wants to rip them a new one. Why no respect? They've done nothing but show us respect and I don't get it. I would have no problem if someone disagreed with them, and called them out as possibly being biased or whatever, but you can do that respectfully. It seems everyone here is very knowledgeable in terms of baseball, so I don't get why we just can't have a knowledgeable and RESPECTFUL conversation about it. I guess some people just have their own grumpy agendas and it's sad.

[southpaw121505]

If anyone is refering to my posts then I'll clarify. I respect and appreciate coach's insight. I'd condede his baseball knowledge and experience far excedes mine. That said, I can still think his posts are biased(which is fine by me by that way!), is me thinking that really that terrible? The other topic about 60 times, I'd think even coach himself will admit that a guy shaving a whole second off his 60 time does not happen often. I still have a hard time belivieving an athlete(already in shape) can do that. Unless there are other factors, ie running the first time injured or out of shape. I hold firm in having a hard time believing a guy can run a 60 at full strength, in shape. And then under those same conditions and health turn around and run it a whole second faster without any other changing variables. I think some of you are not realizing how huge of a gap there is from a 7.25 to a 6.25. No one else has ran 60s? Your whole team usually doesn't vary by much more than a second. Fastest guys are mid 6(and thats blazing), average is 7 and mid 7 and up is getting slow. Again, is it that world turning that I have this stance? geez.

 

Back on topic. Somewhat surprised by the Zaun signing. Changes gears a bit on this topic. I wouldn't mind Lucroy being eased in with Zaun. I'd have to think that means the end of Rivera, unless he starts the season as the backup to get Lucroy a month or two at AAA.

 

I wonder what type of pitcher we could get for Hart if we package him with Salome? Lincecum probably if you ask coach. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif That was a joke hence the wink, no disrespect coach. The overly defensive people in this thread should lighten up. "Sickening" monkeyman? Overboard? Calm down man. /rant

[logan82]

I would hate to see either Salome or Lucroy burn up a whole year of service as a backup. I know the players, their families and friends would prefer the opposite because it gets them closer to free agency.

 

The dividing line between Coach and most of us is he is a Salome fan and we are Brewers fans. We all want to see Salome and the Brewers succeed and hope they go hand in hand. To fans that is secondary to the Brewers doing well. To Coach, the Brewers succeeding is secondary to Salome succeeding. At least that is how I see it. Hopefully both succeed together.

[coach32sm]

Actually, I'm a baseball fan, I like teams that do things right and good organizations that develop kids and do it the right way. I've liked the Brewers system for awhile. One change I would make is their belief that each player MUST succeed at EACH level before moving. (Fielder, Weeks etc. ) Braun was one of the few exceptions. Sure I'd like Angel to do well and if it's not with the Brewers it will be with someone else, but they nurtured him so I'd like to see them reap the benefits. As far as the running thing. As I said my friend spoke at the National Convention, some people were skeptical as expected, and unfortunately he didnt bring any videos or anything, so it wasnt as effective, but by the end of the talk most people understood what he is doing and hat he has and will do, many people asked if he could work with their team, and he (Ed Loveless- Go Go) will speak next year again, fully loaded. Just remember I told you I have a kid, 15 yrs old who runs 6.5 ad I think he will run 6.1 , Ed (Phew) thinks he will run 6.0 so we will see by his senior year. "Coach"

[HiAndTight]

Is that why they pushed Lucroy to boost his trade value or was it legit and they dump angel?

 

Yeah, the talk of Lucroy jumping to MLB is what's has lingered for me, too. I don't know what's going on, but if Melvin doesn't have some attractive deals/avenues already lined up or (at the very least) in mind, I'm sure I won't be the only very disappointed Brewers fan this offseason. I just don't see how you can make this kind of signing without knowing you can ship Lucroy or Angel as part of an offer to get a very good return... I just don't know why you'd risk stunting one or both players' growth in 2010.

I don't agree with this line of thought at all. Why must we trade one of our catchers simply because we brought in a proven big league vet?

 

I realize there is a lot of posturing going on with GM's, but it's also very realistic that the Brewers simply think high enough of Lucroy that they'd give him a shot at making the club out of ST'ing as a guy who plays 60 games and learns from Zaun.

 

If the Brewers end up trading Lucroy or Salome for such a minor issue as not having enough PT for the two(a situation I think we can easily work out), I will be the disappointed one.

 

How about Lucroy catching 60 games in the big leagues behind Zaun and Salome being the AAA catcher?

 

Even if they're both in AAA it's not the end of the world and it may end up being a blessing. Have Angel and Lucroy work at 1st on days they're not catching. Whatever the lengthy list of alternatives may include, having two good MLB ready catchers does not need tobe solved by moving one just to move him.

[HiAndTight]

southpaw121505 wrote:

 

I wonder what type of pitcher we could get for Hart if we package him with Salome? Lincecum probably if you ask coach. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif That was a joke hence the wink, no disrespect coach. The overly defensive people in this thread should lighten up. "Sickening" monkeyman? Overboard? Calm down man. /rant

The part that can get frustrating is that it's not like just one person will say something, several people will and in my case, I genuinely tried to respectfully disagree, but now you have several people admonishing you as Bruce did in one of his last posts for simply having the audacity to question something and the tone then becomes very defensive and far less conducive to a civilized conversation.

 

I'll offer two quick thoughts. First coach is a individual who's been around for a very long time, around some of the greats and without a doubt has a great wealth of information to pass on to the board. We are very lucky to have him, and others who are "in the know" regarding different players and or teams.

However despite his well established credentials, simply questioning him does not mean as Bruce suggested that new posters are just trying to pick a fight with him or whatever it was he insinuated.

 

You can have a great deal of respect, and not be calling coach a "liar" simply because you question the sub 1.70 pop times and the second off 60 times. If you're not allowed to question anything for fear of being viewed as confrontational.

[coach32sm]

Im not sure where this "one second off 60" is coming from. Maybe one big guy had a second taken off, most have a few tenths and even that is unique. From 7.1 to 6.8 is a hell of a lot and puts that guy in a minority of speed. We get a lot of 4 tenths and close to that. Raymond Quinones who was our SS for 3 years was a top showcase kid who is in UNC Greensboro, he was a 4 tool guy had average speed with us, he was one of the first guys to work with "PHEW" and he went from 7.2 to 6.7, thats a big difference especially for a great athlete and a Div ! prospect. The whole thing is mechanics and if you saw what we do you would understand it. When you get 2 olympic (and world record holder) showing you and drilling you, and it is incorporated into you daily workouts it comes to fruition. For example we have a brute catcher who is 6'2 255 he will easily get a second off his time because he is a truck and is losing a lot of baby fat as well. Our other big catching prospect is a 15 year old Soph. who is 6'2 220 and in the same boat, but runs much better he will probably get down a few tenths. Fernando Frias who was our RF for 4 years was our next "Manny" He was drafted and went to JC instead, he's a beast at 6'0 245 and ran 7.0, he's gone as fast as 6.8 and will , if he still continues to work with few while off from college (and on his own) will get to about 6.7, but he's a masher with plus, plus major league power so it's not as vital for a kid like that, he's a power guy, speed would be a plus, and 6.8 is more than sufficient. Hope that clears up a lot As far as pop times, ask any scout that ever saw Salome in HS, we had a few here the other day doing home visits with our possible 1st rounder and it was funny how a few just started talking about Salome's arm and 3 of them all said "I have never seen an arm like that." I saw it for 4 years, you guys can just wait and see, then believe, as he gets back to mechanically sound form. Jean Carlos Rodriguez who is now with the Angels has an arm a notch below, off the charts Plus, I do not get insulted with any disagreement, just down argue if you dont know and don't doubt what you can't see. Thanks "Coach"

[TooLiveBrew]

How about Lucroy catching 60 games in the big leagues behind Zaun and Salome being the AAA catcher?

I think that's a real waste of MLB service time. I definitely don't want to see the Brewers go that route, and fortunately I think they won't (given Kottaras).

 

Even if they're both in AAA it's not the end of the world and it may end up being a blessing. Have Angel and Lucroy work at 1st on days they're not catching. Whatever the lengthy list of alternatives may include, having two good MLB ready catchers does not need tobe solved by moving one just to move him.

That's true, and I agree that this is a good 'problem' to have. I just think that since it'd be better -- on an individual basis -- to have Lucroy & Salome both getting a full workload at catcher at the AAA level, there's a good chance one of them gets traded. You're right to highlight the ways in which they could both get their work in, though.

[thebruce44]

Southpaw, HighandTight,

 

I quoted dadofandrew and was addressing him. There are ways to disagree and ways to just be a jerk.

 

As for me being defensive, I don't think thats the case at all, but see it as the other way around with you guys wondering why people are calling you out and not letting us have a civil discussion. The discussion was quite civil and productive before you two had posted in this thread. I think your posts were valuable at first since coach clarified and expanded on some points, but at that point its time to move on and not get into some of these debate tactics. Let the man talk and post his opinion without disecting every post and trying to catch a mistake...that will drive anyone off a message board.

 

Lets move on either way, and I am glad coach is still here to provide us updates and inside info.

[Mass Haas]

Any posts going forward in this thread that attempt to dissect the posting politeness or rudeness of other posters will be hidden. It's been covered, been there done that, everyone get past it.

The topic here is "Lucroy and Salome in 2010". Enjoy.

[coach32sm]

It doesn't make sense to move a young kid from AA to MLB unless you plan on starting him, 50-60 games is not enough, it might stunt his growth. If the move Angel to that spot and then they give Lucroy a promotion, Lucroy would probably be the starter and Angel backing up in the future, but to move Lucroy to MLB from AA to sit and learn makes no baseball sense, let him play everyday and grow (AAA?) If Angels backing up skill this year aren't good then flip flop them. Also you have many options so if Kattaras is still around then I guess Angel goes to AAA. Where does that leave Lucroy? Can't go back to AA. Again I think one might be moved unless it's Kattaras and Angel backs Zaun!!!! We shall see, and if you get a chance watch Angel on ESPN Deportes on Tues and tell me what you think, but he wont be catching and will certainly be rusty the first few games!! "Coach"

[homer]

I agree coach, but the Brewers have shown a propensity for doing just that - bringing guys up and letting them sit. Hart and Gamel are the two big recent examples.

[coach32sm]

And I agree with you. Gamel should have, and I hope it's not tooolate to be a stud. I saw him a bit, needs more on the mental side of hitting, but just raw talent with a bat, he's awesome, they stymied him. He should have either spent the year in AAA and played everyday or given a legit shot. I hope they don't do that with either catcher, they could get good value on the mound if they plan to bury one of them!! "Coach"

[TooLiveBrew]

Unless Melvin steps in & gives a direct order, Macha seems like the kind of manager that heavily prefers veterans. I would hate to see either Angel or Jonathan handled the way Gamel was.

[coach32sm]

Just came across this....... And as I had a home visit with a cross checker with my SS the other day, he has been in the business over 20 years and says the same about his arm... You had to see it to believe it... and I think this year you will again...

 

136 ANGEL SALOME GEORGE WASHINGTON HS C R/R 5'7" 190 1986-06-08 HS

COMMENT: STRONG LIKE BULL. CHISELED BODY. VERY BROAD SHOULDERS & CHEST, ESPECIALLY FOR SHORT HEIGHT. BUILT LIKE FORMER MAJOR LEAGUER JIMMY WYNN. WEIGHT BACK, KNOCK-KNEED HIT STANCE. MORE STRONG THAN GOOD HIT NOW. PWR IF HE RUNS INTO ONE. LEVEL CUT WHEN KEEPS BACK SHOULDER LEVEL. BLESSED CANNON ARM, AVG ACCURATE. BETTER RAW SPEED THAN MOST CATCHERS, AGGRESSIVE BASE RUNNER. DON'T SEE ARMS LIKE THIS VERY OFTEN. BEST POSITION PLAYER ARM SEEN 15 YRS SCOUTING.

 

 

"Coach"

[HiAndTight]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

 

TooLiveBrew wrote:

---

I think that's a real waste of MLB service time. I definitely don't want to see the Brewers go that route, and fortunately I think they won't (given Kottaras).

 

Well, my opinion on catchers is a bit different than regular position players. There is a far more prevalent mental side of the game at catcher than another other position. That being the case, I don't think it's as bad for a catcher, even a top tier prospect(of which neither LuCroy or Salome would quite qualify as...I'm speaking about a top 20-30 overall prospect) to work his way in somewhat slowly behind a veteran.

 

 

That's true, and I agree that this is a good 'problem' to have. I just think that since it'd be better -- on an individual basis -- to have Lucroy & Salome both getting a full workload at catcher at the AAA level, there's a good chance one of them gets traded. You're right to highlight the ways in which they could both get their work in, though.

 

I guess rather than seem them be given the absolute ideal situation for each which would almost certainly require one getting deal, I'd rather compromise a bit and even perhaps sacrifice a little bit of their development to keep them both in our org.

[TooLiveBrew]

Understood on the mental aspect. I still don't want to see a full year's service time given to a young player/catcher & only see him make 60-70 starts. Just a different approach, I guess.

 

As for the ideal situation: I'd love to see the Brewers keep both guys in the org., but at some point their shared position & basically shared age means the Brewers would likely do best to move one of them. I'd rather turn one of them into a useful player or players at different positions than see one become the other's backup. But again, I'm not complaining. I'm really excited to see how both of these guys do in 2010.

[HiAndTight]

I agree coach, but the Brewers have shown a propensity for doing just that - bringing guys up and letting them sit. Hart and Gamel are the two big recent examples.

 

In all fairness, Hart had a very poor start. I believe when he initially came up he was hitting under .200 and then started recieving sporadic playing time and we had Lee and Geoff playing in front of him.

 

Gamel they certainly handled poorly, but I think you can look at nearly every organization and question the playing time given to a top prospect.

 

This isn't to say the Brewers are flawless, just that I don't think it's a trend just yet.

[TooLiveBrew]

Beyond sitting behind Lee & Jenks, Hart also couldn't get PT ahead of Kevin freaking Mench for a while. I think you're right that it's not necessarily a trend, though.