Lucroy and Salome in 2010

[Invader3K]

"The Brewers are in a great position in that they have two talented catching prospects that are on the cusp of playing in the big-leagues. That is a great problem to have, regardless of your preference between the two."

 

Amen to that. Look at some of the starting catchers the Brewers have had just a few short years ago. I think Salome and/or Lucroy will be a big step up from the likes of Chad Moeller (no offense to Mr. Moeller).

[TheCrew07]

I've stayed out of both of these threads recently but I feel compelled to post now after catching on this thread over the last couple of days.

 

The disconnect here I believe is as Menace posted, there is a vast difference between knowing a sport on paper vs running a program and being able to teach a game/develop young men. The former is the domain of anyone with internet access, the latter is the domain of a select few special men who will put everything they have into developing young men beyond immediate family. The worst part of coaching in this era is far and away the parents, for too many reasons to go into in thread. In the same way for someone like Coachsm32 the worst part of posting on a forum like ours is people who immediately assume he's biased or think they know about baseball than they really do. It doesn't matter the sport, it's true across all sports, it's very difficult to appreciate the complexity and beauty of any sport until you try to coach others to play it. I didn't truly understand that fact until I got into coaching myself. Coach's track record of success building a program in an area otherwise not known for baseball, and the players that have come out of that program should have given him enough "street credit" that posters would just listen to what the man has to say. You don't have to agree with it, but just listen and consider the source. As a coach you can't help but love the kids a little bit who grow into young men on your watch so coaches will always have bias towards their own players on some level, but the good ones are keenly aware of that bias and generally try to be as objective as possible.

 

Take football for example, when colleges come knocking on your door to recruit your kids it's imperative that you understand the entire situation, as in the coach who's recruiting your player his job rests entirely on the performance of your athlete. If you promote a kid that doesn't make it, or a couple of kids that don't make it, you no longer have any credibility in a the profession and you could impact the future of a truly deserving young man down the road. I was at the all-conference meeting a couple of years ago and a coach of a team that had lost 2 games in conference actually nominated 21 of 22 starters for all-conference and his place kicker. If you had 22 of the top 23 players in the conference, how the hell did you lose 1 game, let alone 2? Coach32sm hasn't doesn't anything like that with Angel on this forum, he's stuck to his opinion that Angel has Pudge upside which I personally believe is not far from Angel's ceiling. When we asked him about Salome's struggles throwing out runners he's been open about what he thought the problems were, and he's admitted he doesn't like Salome's unorthodox approach plate either, but it works.

 

Futhermore he hasn't said anything about Lucroy that isn't true, I believe Lucroy is the more polished player today, but with him it's going to be what you see is what you get, he absolutely has the lower upside of the two. Potential has nothing to do with who will ultimately be the better player, Lucroy could very well end up being the better MLB player, but I'm thrilled to have both. Salome has been lightening rod of criticism because of his size, health, unorthodox style at the plate, and his CS percentage over the years and I think Coach has always handled it pretty well given how close he is to the situation. It's not a stretch at all for me personally to understand how Angel might have changed his stride to favor his ankle thus costing himself some foot speed. Major injuries often lead to other issues as the athlete unintentionally or intentionally compensates by favoring the injured area. So for example in baseball, and specifically a guy like Ben Sheets... it seems much more likely to me that tearing his shoulder muscle could have directly led to his elbow problem, or even just general wear and tear from pitching his whole life ultimately wearing down the elbow, than some arbitrary number of pitches in his age 29 season. Yet there are posters on this forum that will try and sell us on PAP or some metric being the ultimate reason for his demise, not his conditioning being a factor in regards to his injury history, or any of the dozens of other explanations there could have possibly been...

 

For most of us there is a disconnect between what we think we know and what we actually do "know" to be true. I'm as guilty of it as anyone, I'm always trying to guess my way to the root issue without the benefit of any first hand information. The vast majority of us are actually just guessing about what happens with player Y or player X, injuries to players, treatment of players, etc.... and personally I appreciate the limited insights the few insiders we have on the forum provide.

[HiAndTight]

Futhermore he hasn't said anything about Lucroy that isn't true, I believe Lucroy is the more polished player today, but with him it's going to be what you see is what you get, he absolutely has the lower upside of the two.

 

 

At the risk of being accused of arguing just to argue, can I clarify a point here.

 

Do you then agree that Salome is a far superior defensive player when it comes to the fundementals of the game, is better at throwing out runners, has much better footwork and that Lucroy is a very poor defender?

 

I wouldn't ever argue that Salome has a higher upside. I'm not sure how to take, "what you see if what you get" because as has become obvious in this thread everyone sees something different, but most will agree that Salome provides a higher upside.

 

Coach sees a very poor defender with poor footwork and mechanics. Others see Lucroy as a much improved defender and a superior defender to Salome.

 

Therein lies the problem with trying to sum everything up in general terms.

[HiAndTight]

The big lug comment wasn't about you, moreso a perceived notion about Angel's lack of effectiveness lately that has been passing around the board and my point still stands hiandtight. Until you provide insight that has more authority than the Coach I don't want to hear your drivel. It is that simple. You have not earned any credibility on this board and have no worth to spout off the way you feel you are entitled too. It is that simple you are calling out a well respected member of this board and the baseball community and back it up with nothing more than conjecture.

 

If you would have read through previous threads to know what you were talking about or even maybe told us why you feel the ability to bash respected members than feel free. Personally I could care less what you have to say; you are trying to discredit Salome, because you can't believe their times. Well who the heck are you? What do you know about times and rehab that make you the authority? You refused to answer my question what do you do all day that makes you so qualified to call out a respected member of our community? I am not rooting either way but you can approach a comment to a respected poster without being so condescending.

 

Please, I beg of you to point out at what point in time I bashed Salome. I don't know what I have to do in order to articulate how highly I think of Salome. I would question almost any prospect who had questions throwing out runners with such a strong arm having sub 1.70 pop times. That's very impressive.

 

The comment about rooting for my sisters boyfriend and her virginity or whatever it was you came up with makes everything else you say comical and makes your assertions of me all that much more hypocritical.

 

I've taken efforts to disagree in a respectful manners, so rather than making wide sweeping comments about how little respect I have as a poster and how I've bashed Salome, please show me what I said in those respects that you take comment with.

 

 

 

Finally, I don't feel the need to "prove" that I provide more insight than coach. He apparently has run a very impressive program in NY and has produced a good number of very, very good players. I'm also not going to sit here and list what I've done and who I am. Frankly, it's not important. I don't want my thoughts and opinions to be about what I've done in athletics.

 

 

 

If what I've said is deemed to be so offensive by the powers that be, I'd hope someone would tell me rather than someone who's sunken down to such a childish and trashy level as to make the comments that you have. You can spout off all you want about your lack of respect for me, however the last couple paragraphs about my sisters virginity in your post have told me all I need to know about you. And by the way, who are you? What have YOU done? Not that this is important to me, but if you are going to make the claim that my opinions and comments are not worthy of respect on this board because I have not given you my resume, then please by all means give me yours?

 

 

At the end of the day coach, I respect your insight and your accomplishments in athletics.

 

 

Beyond that, the ad hominen attacks for having the audacity to question something that was posted seem a bit much.

[coach32sm]

Hey guys

 

I am at my second love... PHISH in Albany this weekend and will be catching my 100th show so rock on or jam on...

 

I was not going to post any more but quite a few of you sent me personal e-mails and thank you I appreciate them, let me make something clear, hopefully we can get back on track.

 

As for myself, just so you understand my background. I was in pro ball, spent the last 27 years coaching one of the top programs in the US been #1 in the country and might be again this year. I coached and won championships in Pro Ball as well. I have coached all over the world and played and coached against most of the powerful baseball countries and at times coached them. In the States I have coached, besides GW a top summer and Fall team(S) and done well. My program has produced 6 major leaguers who at least had a cup of coffee, and the near future will see more.

 

I have almost 900 wins, and chair several national and State organizations and have spoken and been a clinician in too many places and countries to remember. This is not to pat my self on the back although it certainly looks like it, but just to give you some insight into my following points....

 

When Angel got drafted I came across the Brewerfan website, I was impressed. (By the way I am an uuuuggggghhhhhh Met fan) There were post about Angel so one day I posted something anonymously, somehow someone knew who I was and the cover was blown. I was asked about Angel a lot and since he was hitting 400 at the time most people loved him even though you had "Captain Lou" All I did was tell you about Angel his good and bad, and offer some insight. There were good things written and bad things on the site but who cares that's the beauty of sports everybody has an opinion. Angel seemed to fall into bad graces with some and I was angry at him as well, but you really can't control injuries and that's what started it for him. And the organization felt he quit on them, hence pushing Lucroy.

 

As far as Lucroy, I never saw him play until last week. Ive heard good things about him as a player and I never bad mouthed him.Why? I don't know him nor have I seen him. I was getting tired of a lot of "ignorant" things said about Angel from people who just go by what others say. I was trying to make a point that I saw one game and he DID look bad. But how can I judge a guy on one game, that was my point when I said he was atrocious, I said it was one game and that's what many people do; base opinions on one comment or one game or even one season.

 

I figured most people would be curious as to what a player does in the off season and how he gets ready, it was and never will be about other players or bashing, that's not me.

 

As far as some of my statements about my players, what the hell would I gain by saying "outrageous" things where I am a high profile guy in my profession and would be left with pie on my face. But yes Angel has gone 1.7 and actually his protege who is now with the Angels Jean Carlos Rodriguez has as well (he's another story and headache though) My sophomore catcher is right behind them and he's a beast as Manny was in high school. I had the kid who had 96 SB in one season and was one of the top 5 in high school at the time. (and for the record I have a track background as well. I was on the verge of making the 80 and 84 Olympics) i have several Olympic athlete friends including Ed Loveless who's company Phew works with my team. And yes he HAS taken 1 second and more off players times. He will be one of my speakers at the BCA National convention where I am Vice President of the association. He has been asked by several Major League teams to come in and work with their athletes. He does work with my other Sophomore who runs now 6.4 and he also says he will run 6.1 he's 6'3 185 and 15 year old.

 

We work harder then anybody around and get tremendous results, that is why we are so proud and hopefully good.

 

Now as far as Dominicans, i am an adopted Dominican since Ive have had nothing but, for 27 years. As I have coached around the world it is obvious that the Japanese, the Koreans, the Venezuelians, the Italians, the Americans (even broken down into regions) all have their own style, that is obvious, at least to me as I coach with and against them. It's not DNA its a belief and a style. Dominicans have a saying "nobody walks off the island" and they believe that if a scout is watching them, he doesnt want to see them walk they want to see them mash, that's how they will get signed, so they swing, that is their style. We rarely walk more than we strike out as a team, when we do we usually win a championship, it's hard to get them to understand that, especially when their coach is a big offensive minded guy who loves the 3 run homer. We have always had boppers. We use wood now in our league so even there things have changed. DNA? No style and belief, and many Dominicans still believe in swinging the bat, and of course many just try to get on base anyway possible.

 

Instead of rambling.... understand that again, all I wanted to do was give the good and bad of one of your top prospects. And as stated earlier, I wish them both luck and as any proud father would, Im pushing for my son. If he doesnt get the job, then he didnt do what he had to and we have to change plans. That is it, that is all it's ever been.

 

PLEASE DONT JUDGE SOMEBODY ON SOMEONE ELSES SAYSO OR WHAT YOU READ. GO OUT AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

 

Lastly Angel's problems came from knowing he had a cannon and a first relying on it, then when he had trouble, trying not to rely on his arm, but mechanics, so his feet got messed up and his release point was out of whack. His arm and footwork are back in sinc and he will show you his Pudge like times again, i see it often now, so will you.

 

Good luck to all Happy Holidays, and anyone going to Phish.... I hope they are as good as last night they were awesome.

 

"Coach"

 

Edit: paragraphs

[southpaw121505]

I find it kinda ridiculous that anyone that has read this thread can deny the bias oozing from just about every "coach" post. Insight is cool and all, but regarding Lucroy v. Salome, his "opinion" doesn't carry much weight with me either. The word atrocious was used guys. Has ANYONE other than "coach" used the word atrocious to describe ANYTHING about Lucroy? You can respect what the guy does as a coach and still not hold his opinion as gospel, that's not a crime.

 

I have to admit, talking about taking a SECOND off a guys 60 time is tough for me to buy. Maybe an untrained person but for someone who's already an athlete? Do you guys know how drastic of a difference there is between a guy running a ~7.5 sixty to a ~6.5 sixty? That's going from below average to fast. I don't really care who is delivering that message, it's a hard one for me to buy.

[coach32sm]

Southpaw, just curious, did you ever play the game? What level? do you still? I guess people still don't read rt. correctly, I said Lucroys game on Saturday was atrocious, not he. That was the point for the fourth time, you cant base someone's ability by one game or other's opinions, I really thought I made that clear, I was not say HE WAS ATROCIOUS. As far as a second off guys times, not everyone has a second taken off, most are just a few tenths. But a lot of people on this sight have said that Angel is SLOW when I said he not only had great speed for a catcher in high school, but very good baseball speed in general. So what's slow for Angel 7.9? Well come by before Spring training and I will show you 6.8, that's a second. If you're planning to come by, the school address is 549 Audubon Ave New York, NY Take the number 1 train to 191 street, if by car take the GW bridge to Audubon Ave and turn left to 192. If coming from the East take the Cross Bronx to Amsterdam and turn go straight to Audubon, turn right al the way to the school. If by south take the FDR Drive or Westside highway to the same. Laguardia is the best and closest airport. Take the Triboro to FDR and follow above. We start at 3 and usually finish about 7. You are all welcome. Also until Angel was hurt in August he had the highest percent of CS in the organization, I think that's an indication of his progress. Did I offend anyone with that bit of info? Am I being biased? I'm pushing for Angel but wishing no one any bad luck or il feelings, neither does Angel. My kids are taught to help each other. If you can see any two or 3 guys on the team that play the same position, helping each other you would see what I mean, They understand that competition is healthy and we treat each person the same. I've stated many times how Angel works with our catchers, and now Jean Carlos is doing the same. We have 4 catchers this year and they all work together, pushing each other. None will ever say anything bad about the other, that's just the way we do it. during the season you will see LOTS of bantering between each of them, all in good fun, and that too usually pushes the other guy. Also, my bias isn't oozing, my respect and desire for Angel to succeed is, just like your parents. "Coach"

[Mass Haas]

We can continue to discuss Angel and Jonathan in this thread, I had hoped to take a break from that discourse, and asked Salome's former coach and still mentor a few questions here. Since coach was kind enought to respond, that Q&A has been broken off in its own thread.

 

One other note -- coach, I'm not sure what you're using for a web browser / typing application. I've gone in to edit your posts to provide paragraph formatting, and I can see that you are doing so yourself. It's something to do with how our message board here at Yuku is then combining all your text into a single paragraph, don't know why. There's a symbol, coach, above where you type that looks like a capital "T" with a small "x" next to it. If you click it and remove formatting before you click "post", it may help, otherwise I'll continue to help you out.

[southpaw121505]

Played at the d3 college level, not sure how that's relevant.

[HiAndTight]

Coach, I'd like to put this to rest. It's not my intention to come over here and start off by getting into a prolonged feud with someone such as yourself.

 

Just a couple things. First of all, I have not, nor will I ever question your credentials. For the record, I won't question anyone's, nor will I dismiss their opinion because I don't know who they are or what they've done.

 

I suppose when the comments about my sisters virginity and other comments about other equally ridiculous and non-consequential issues were brought up I may have reacted negatively.....I tried not to, but if some believe I have, I apologize.

 

With regard to your comments on Lucroy, they certainly appeared to be pretty overtly negative toward him when you pointed out his atrocious footwork and mechanics.

 

And at some point, we have to look to what others have to say in order to form our opinions. That's how this works for most of us. I've seen Angel and Lucroy play a combined 3 times(aside from Salome's time in Milwaukee). That's not enough to form an opinion. I'd have to watch them play for months in order to really form a valid opinion. So instead I try and incorporate all the opinions by the scouts and the organization.

 

Are they always right on? No, but when I hear from a litany of sources that Lucroy was one of, if not thee most impressive catcher in the Fall League, and then another talks about how atrocious he looked, I'm inclined to lean toward the masses. If you want to chastize me for leaning on them for my opinions, that's fair as I won't pretend to be a professional scout.

 

As for the Dominican thing, yes, I understand that point. But again, what I was trying to say is that I understand that for players who are 16 trying to get signed in the Dominican. Not those who went to High School in New York. Simply put, Lucroy's ability to draw walks and Salome's inability to do represent a significant advantage for Lucroy.

 

 

The last thing I'll say is that Angel Salome has always been a huge favorite of mine. He's got a lot of ability. But, based on his unorthodox swing, and some other area's of his game that may not translate(or may) he's far less of a sure thing. Great upside, but Lucroy is a pretty sure thing, and a pretty good sure thing IMO.

[HiAndTight]

Played at the d3 college level, not sure how that's relevant.

 

Nor do I. Again, does Rickey Henderson know more or offer better insight into prospects than Jack Z? I highly doubt it.

 

 

I like to hear comments and then we can decide what to believe and form our opinions.

[TooLiveBrew]

Geez, come on. I think we need to cool off here. There's just no reason I can imagine for Coach to come here & essentially lie, which is what the accusations seem to be at this point. Not only does that not make sense, it's an insult as well. This is a great thread that's taken a really crappy & unnecessary turn. I hope the discussion can get back on track so we don't see such a useful thread locked. I've been enjoying reading this thread on a near-daily basis since it was started, and now it's just turned into this? Weak.

 

Coach, I'm glad you decided to come back & post some more. Your insights are always welcome, and I hope that in the future our community doesn't rake you over the coals like has been happening over the past week or so. It's disappointing to see that kind of reception for anyone.

when I hear from a litany of sources that Lucroy was one of, if not thee most impressive catcher in the Fall League, and then another talks about how atrocious he looked, I'm inclined to lean toward the masses.

I can understand Coach's frustration on this angle... he's not only stated multiple times, but clarified multiple times that he said that in his opinion, Lucroy was atrocious in one game. The stubbornness running rampant right now just serves no purpose whatsoever.

[YoungGeezy]

Not sure if it was the bad note the Brewers ended on this season or what but geez people have been turning everything into a big arguement lately. Heck i may have just not wrote that first sentince the way someone wanted and they may start a 3-4 page arguement about it. Its crazy. It happen with Josh in the Brent Brewer topic also and it is like some of you don't want any "insider type" people on here. Everytime they write something its like people nick pick at what they wrote a lot more than if myself, ColbyJack, Mass, or anyone else wrote it. I personally love that people like coach and Josh come and give us insite on Angel and the other players. In the last 2 weeks we have made both off those guys not even want to post anymore and that is rediculious.

 

As far as the discussion goes they way I see it is a lot like most, we have two promising catchers for the first time since god knows when and I'm excited for it. I'm happy with eighter of them and think come spring, the one that all around plays best wins the starting job while Kottras or Rivera backs them up.

[strawbossisevil]

I have a lot of respect for coach's opinion. I think there have been a few circumstances that have set him back in the eyes of many as a prospect.

 

1) Being his illegal substance suspension.

2) His injury riddled career (to this point)

3) The fact that his body size and swing are unorthodox

4) The fact that LuCroy has performed very, very well on both sides of the ball last season, while Angel struggled to remain healthy

5) Questions that have been made (fair or not fair)in regards to his dedication - (his injury issues, his not participating in winter ball, etc.)

 

I think a lot of these negatives are not entirely fair to Angel, but they are probably what impacts much of Angel's perceived prospect status.

 

I think some people need to remember that this is a discussion board. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion, and there is nothing wrong with disagreement (even disagreement with insiders). As long as posters come across as being honest and non-derogatory (I think this describes coach's style of posting well), I see their posts as valuable to the discussion. Where I have a problem is with deceptive/dishonest posting and posting that is demeaning or mocks the intelligence of other posters. I don't care who you are (insider or not), no one has the right to post in that manner.

[Mass Haas]

Jim Breen over at Bernie's Crew (Sports Bubbler) continues to do a nice job and his site remains one of my daily stops.

Here he chats with Jonathan Lucroy.

[coach32sm]

Hey strawbossisevil, you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what I've been saying. I know Angel and see what he does and how he thinks, more so than anyone else, so I see the good and the good intention. He has had a rocky road for a few years with the injuries and the suspension (which was for amphetamines, triggered by ADD medication and NOT STERIODS) I can see the organization and fans getting down on him, but again, put that all behind and let's move on. Angel might go to Winter bal for a few weeks soon, but he really needs to stay in NY and work as he is doing and work with our running and footwork guys. And the article on Lucroy was great, it shows a great side of him. I like players that are not full of themselves as he came off, I wish him luck. Let's hope the Brewers don't go out and sign a big league guy and both guys are out, as one probably will be in a trade if that happens. PS I am in Arizona as the National convention is starting and as I said, as VP I have to provide a host of speakers, one being Ed Lovelace from PHEW who is our running guy. I'm sure he'll get a lot of disbelief as he talks about what he has done and can do, but I have seen it. He will hopefully have videos and I think he's actually going to show a little bit of stuff on video with Angel included. We'll see. We'll talk soon. And boy is it nice when it's warm, let's play two. "Coach"

[mletto157]

Don't look now, but the Brewers just signed Gregg Zaun...

[thebruce44]

Geez, come on. I think we need to cool off here. There's just no reason I can imagine for Coach to come here & essentially lie, which is what the accusations seem to be at this point.

 

Its pretty much a non issue to me and wish it would be that way to others since its pretty much just a couple of new posters clashing with coach. They don't in any way represent the board.

 

I hope coach can look past them and keep providing us with valuable insight. If someone doesn't like what he posts or think its too bias to get anything out of it, they can just stay out of this thread. You don't need to prove yourself to other posters by questioning someone like coach.

[coach32sm]

Signing of Zaun is not good for the young guns. I guess one of them will back up and one will be in AAA. If Zaun does not do the job, then a promotion, but with the amount they are giving Zaun I doubt if he'll sit much, but I'm sure he will nurture the lucky one. Time will tell. will one be dealt this winter? "Coach"

[marty22]

I really hope they don't trade either, but, obviously, it depends on the deal they'd be a part of. I was thinking the other day about how the Rangers dealt for Pudge last year, even though last offseason they had 4 players they thought were major league catchers (Saltalamacchia, Laird, Teagarden, Ramirez). I'd hate for us to ship off one of our catchers and have the other one flop; it seems like the rate of attrition for catching prospects is very high.

[reillymcshane]

Jim Breen over at Bernie's Crew (Sports Bubbler) continues to do a nice job and his site remains one of my daily stops.

Here he chats with Jonathan Lucroy.

Yeah, Jim Breen keeps producing some solid stuff - and lots of it. Always good things to read.

[coach32sm]

It doesn't make sense for the Brewers to have a prospect sit behind a guy for a year when he needs to get his ab's and work on defense, it also doesn't make sense to move a catcher fromAA to the big leagues to only have him sit and learn. So what do they do with both young catchers? They can't both play AAA and stunt their growth in defense and/or bats, and it doesn't make much sense to leave Lucroy at AA so do they move him to AAA and have Angel "learn" from Zaun? I doubt it, so therefore one goes. Is that why they pushed Lucroy to boost his trade value or was it legit and they dump angel? It's going to be very interesting. I told you guys the Brewers would sign a ML catcher, a few weeks ago and that now changes the landscape!!!! I assure you Zaun will catch about 140 games or so unless he tanks and the Brewers eat 2.1 or so. Enjoy your winter, I know I will. "Coach"

[TooLiveBrew]

Is that why they pushed Lucroy to boost his trade value or was it legit and they dump angel?

 

Yeah, the talk of Lucroy jumping to MLB is what's has lingered for me, too. I don't know what's going on, but if Melvin doesn't have some attractive deals/avenues already lined up or (at the very least) in mind, I'm sure I won't be the only very disappointed Brewers fan this offseason. I just don't see how you can make this kind of signing without knowing you can ship Lucroy or Angel as part of an offer to get a very good return... I just don't know why you'd risk stunting one or both players' growth in 2010.

[coach32sm]

They will probably trade for a pitcher and throw a few prospects in the deal, including one of the catchers, that's the only thing that makes any sense to me "Coach"

[dadofandrew]

Zaun has not played over 110 games ever. The idea they plan to play him 140 is nonsensical and shows a lack of research, in my opinion.

 

Few teams throw anything but the top prospects (Prince, Ryan) out there to be the starter with no backup plan. Lucroy is far from a sure thing, and the idea of letting him sink or swim makes no sense. He'll be broken in slowly, and protected.