Lucroy and Salome in 2010

[Invader3K]

I know some people are cynical and think Melvin has been talking up Lucroy in order to possibly trade him this off-season, but the fact that Salome has barely been mentioned makes me think Melvin is indeed looking at Lucroy for the MLB Opening Day roster in 2010.

[coach32sm]

Don't worry about Salome. As long as the job has not been given outright to anyone it's up for grabs and I see Angel everyday, he's another person, wait til you see him physically and on the field. He's a machine, newly oiled and psyched to play. His footwork is off the charts and his arm is back to HS days. Pictures to follow when I can figure out how to send them. Will try to take some photos today. "Coach"

[fleehaw]

Don't worry about Salome. As long as the job has not been given outright to anyone it's up for grabs and I see Angel everyday, he's another person, wait til you see him physically and on the field. He's a machine, newly oiled and psyched to play. His footwork is off the charts and his arm is back to HS days. Pictures to follow when I can figure out how to send them. Will try to take some photos today. "Coach"

Perhaps I'm in the minority, or the only one, but it's really hard to take anything you post seriously. You have a stated relationship with Salome, but that doesn't mean you can't have some objectivity in your posts. Many of them just gush about Salome without any real useful information in the progress he is supposed making.

 

I apologize if I'm being rude, but instead of just opining superlatives regarding Salome, maybe you could give us actual updates since many of us Brewer fans are rooting for him and interested in his development.

[yoshii8]

Coach, I would like to thank you for the first hand updates of Angel's off-season. I appreciate everything you add to this site and always look forward to your posts. I really like the optimism, and love that you truly believe in one of your former players.

[HiAndTight]

I agree. I hope they give Salome, Lucroy, and Rivera equal-shot at being the starter and the backup. I honestly still think Salome will be the better option when all is said and done.

Count me as one of the few who doesn't believe that a year with Mike Rivera as the starting catcher would be a very pretty sight. I know he was somewhat decent two years ago, but this was coming off a .215/.275 type season in AAA and if memory serves was with only about 20 games started, if that.

 

AS for LuCroy vs Salome, I just don't see how Salome could possibly the the more complete prospect at this point. I believe he's got the higher upside in that I believe with his pure tools, a 70 arm, his power potential, and his potential to carry a high BA, that he could end up being a very, very good catcher. However at this point LuCroy can help out the offense without getting a hit, and he seems to be at least average defensively. I envision LuCroy posting a .255/.345/.410 type line nest year and Salome could easily be under .300 with his OBP.

[HiAndTight]

Perhaps I'm in the minority, or the only one, but it's really hard to take anything you post seriously. You have a stated relationship with Salome, but that doesn't mean you can't have some objectivity in your posts. Many of them just gush about Salome without any real useful information in the progress he is supposed making.

 

I apologize if I'm being rude, but instead of just opining superlatives regarding Salome, maybe you could give us actual updates since many of us Brewer fans are rooting for him and interested in his development.

I don't think there's any question you were being rude there.

 

I'd imagine there are ways of voicing your opinion that coach is overly complimentary of Angel then saying you can't take anything he says seriously, and that his posts offer no insight.

 

It's kinda like the "no offense, but........" and then saying something that's most assuredly offensive following. If you have to say no offense, try a more tactful way to put it.

 

 

In any event, its' always difficult if you're talking about someone you really care about and have a close relationship with to be completely objective, especially when they possess the physique and physical attributes of Angel Salome.

[filthyfrog]

Yeah, I'd much rather hear subjective information from a clearly subjective source than no information at all. I really don't understand the crusade against inside sources lately. If you don't care to read posts from coach or others, don't read them. It's really not that hard. A lot of us really look forward to hearing from them.

[homer]

Agent 39 threatened to stop posting if we didn't take him seriously.

 

 

BIG difference.

[filthyfrog]

Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned his name because I really don't want to reopen that debate here. I edited my post so we can move on.

[coach32sm]

No offense taken. I can understand why people think I might be biased, its like a parent who thinks his baby is the cutest and brightest, but Ive been around a loooong time and on every level as well, so I know a little and can be objective (I hope) If both catchers are taken into Spring Training with a dead even chance I think Angel will show everybody how good he is. Most people loved him on Brewerfan but he had an injury filled year and the organization got a little down on him feeling he quit on them (what have you done for me lately) but after a 181 first month he was back to mashing. It was almost impossible for him to play productively and told the team he would play hurt but wouldnt really contribute much, he couldn't hold the bat. Anyway, he is working with us where we have an Olympic Gold Medal runner and a World Record holder in the 100 and hurdles. They have taken some of our players from 7.4 60 to 6,5. They know their stuff and they say Angel's footwork is off the charts. I see him and see him like in high school plus his mechanics behind the plate are exceptional now, he will be back to unheard of pop times under 1.7 Let's just hope the organization gives both or all 3 catchers an equal shot and then the best man should win. Remember Angel hit 400 and then hit 360 in AA he would have had a great year after the 1st month and if he didnt get hurt in AAA too. Dont worry about his walks most Dominicans don't walk anyway, and when you hit like he does it's not as important, and Im sure he will get better at it as time goes by. Happy Thanksgiving to all. hope to see you in Milwaukee in the Spring. "Coach"

[HiAndTight]

I still take issue with the comment that most Dominican's don't take walks. Heck, most don't ever make it and do anything. The good ones sure take walks, the great ones take walks. Even Vlad's taken enough walks to carry an impressive OBP. I don't like to discount the importance of being able to take walks by just chalking it up to them being Dominican. Is there something in their DNA that doesn't allow them to? Because I know Salome went to High School in the Bronx.

 

I just think that's a fairly weak excuse.

 

 

As for the 60 time, I'll be pretty happy if he can get to 6.6, but I have to question how many have gone from 7.4 to 6.5, just as a sub 1.7 pop time for Salome sounds a bit questionable.

 

 

I hope you're right, but at the end of the day, even if those things are, Salome's always been an incredible physical specimen, that still has to relate to blocking pitches, throwing runners out, knowing the opposing teams and calling a good game.

[coach32sm]

HiAndTight. My two track guys are legit, come to the BCA National convention and hear them speak. I am the vice president and recruited them to speak to the high school coaches of the country. Several major league teams have contacted them to actually work for them. I can give you a list of quite a few guys who actually went from slower than 7.4 and gotten to 6.5 or better. I have a 15 year old Sophomore who is working with them and at his age he has already run 6.4 and will get to 6.1 by his senior year. The Dominican thing is an expression "You can't walk off the island" Ever hear of it? Im not trying to sell my players or my program, burt we have had more success than most teams in the US and getting better. Any time you want to come by and see what we have, you are welcome to watch our factory produce top national players. We have one of the top three SS in the country and our 2B is a sure major leaguer in a few years. We probably will have another 5 guys or so drafted in 2010 and 2011. Our Sophomore class has 4 players that can compete with anybody, it's not a coincidence. I have no ax to grind and no financial gains coming my way. I only know what I see and I have seen a lot coaching all over the world. I work many major showcases in the US as well If you want to talk about blocking, the game I saw with Lucroy on Saturday was atrocious, at least 5 balls got past him, he actually needs a lot more work than Angel, he doesn't throw exceptionally well or have great footwork,but he has been labelled the next catcher so everybody jumps on the bandwagon. And now I sound like everybody else only seeing him one time, but he didnt look very good regardless. Lastly, Angel did not EVER go to high school (and high school is not capitalized unless you use the name of the school) in the Bronx. Washington Heights is in Manhattan. Again, as I said earlier, I have spoken to several pitchers over time that Angel has caught for and they all love throwing to him and compliment his game calling. I hope you all jump on the Salome bandwagon when he is the #1guy, he will be, either here or somewhere else, he's just too good, and please stop thinking he is a big (well short, but big) lug, he is a great athlete who's father was a big time boxer. He would have followed in that line but he found baseball and found our program where he flourished. Come see us work in the winter, you may have a coronary just watching!!!! "Coach"

[HiAndTight]

First of all coach, the point wasn't what High School he went to, that it wasn't in the Bronx isn't the point, the point is that he wasn't signed out of the DR and as such, excusing that he doesn't walk by saying he's Dominican is pointless IMO.

 

As for the expression, yeah, obviously I've heard about it if I addressed how I don't buy it. And it's not "just" an expression to you if you used that as your rationale as to why it's not important for him to not walk...."most Domincan's don't anyway". So when you're talking about a kid who is from New York, what are you saying? It's in their DNA that they just can't walk? They somehow lack the ability to walk that American baseball players do not, or Asian players do not? I can see a 16 year old kid trying to get a contract not being as worried about drawing walks, but that loses something when they're from the US and they've played here their whole lives including 6 years in the minor leagues.

 

 

As for the rest coach.....you seem to be taking an awful lot of offense and feeling the need to really defend your program because I said I have a hard time believing that all these people are dropping a second off their 60 times. If you're talking about kids during their time in high school, that's one thing, but you made it sound as though he's doing this with adults which I wouldn't believe.

 

I also don't take "he will run a 6.1 by the time he's a senior" as really substantial. It's a guess and it's hopeful, but it's not really proof.

 

 

As for the please stop thinking he's some big lug, just where on Earth does that come from? Maybe this is the cause of you being overly defensive of him. I believe in the last post I made a comment about his impressive physique and physical attributes. So where do you get big lug from that?

 

What's more, I think it's ridiculous to try and take shots at Jon Lucroy who is universally regarded as the better catcher. When you start talking about seeing 5 passed balls and how Salome is so clearly the superior defensive catcher, you do lose credibility. I actually apologize for previously chastizing the poster because I know see what he was talking about. It's just all to over the top. All the kids that are going to be pro's is great, sounds like an impressive program. All the pitchers you've spoken to is hearsay and hard to really quantify.

 

 

Either way, in the most polite way I can say it, calling Lucroy atrocious, and telling everyone about your program, as impressive as it may be, doesn't really validate Angel Salome, in fact based on the opinions of all the scouts who've seen Lucroy in the fall league and compared him to the top catchers in all the minors, it makes me question your evaluations as a whole.

[Hammer]

Lots of harsh words being thrown around. I'd like to point out that we have two of the most highly regarded catching prospects in all of baseball and choosing between them is not going to be easy. Sure kicks the crap out of what we had to talk about in the past...

[coach32sm]

His high school IS the point, that is my point exactly, people throw things around that others say without getting the facts straight. And again any time you want to come by and see us you are welcome. And I guess you are missing the point in all of it. The big lug thing comes from many people on this site saying he should move his position and he is slow, no hands, stuff like that when in fact he is a superior athlete. Plus I've had almost all but Dominican players for 27 years I think I know the style and the beliefs in the game. New York ball in general, is "swing the bat" we are very aggressive in NY. Also I dont need to defend my program it speaks for itself, I was trying to give you a reference of where my knowledge comes from and that I don't just throw things out there. And yes "Phew" the people that work with us do take adults and make them "much" faster. Not only my high school kids but some of my kids that are in college and pro ball. And my sophomore will run 6.1 Ill guarantee that. I had the fastest guy in the country awhile ago and he stole 96 bases in one year, this kid is almost as fast at the same age, and has better facilities and training. Also I did not take a shot at anyone, I said it was one game and that's what people do, look at one thing or one comment or one game. The game I saw, Lucroy didn't look very good and I was with several players and coaches who emphatically agreed and didnt even know who he was. Im sure he's a great kid and a top prospect, all I said is, I hope they get an equal and fair shot and then the cream will rise. Both are great players with great futures and I wish them both the best of luck. I can only speak for Angel because I see him everyday and I know him so well and for so long. And lastly, pitchers telling me stuff about Angel is "hearsay", what is this? Court? I was making a point, I do coach all over the world as well as all over the US in the sumer and run into a lot of players and I do ask questions. And to all of you reading this, remember, all I am trying to do is give some insight, if you don't want it I can use my time elsewhere. I am not trying to sell my program for that serves no purpose to me or the program, we are what we are, just some first hand stuff from a guy who has many pro players and quite a few in colleges who will emerge soon, and as I said my team is loaded with big time prospects and maybe you would like to hear about them as they mature. I get "Manny in high school" questions every day. Thought it would be nice to let you know for example, my SS Mike Antonio who should be a top pick, of what he is like now so some day you will remember "how it was" Cant please all the people all the time" so for awhile, have a good one and we'll speak somewhere down the road, maybe in April when Lucroy is starting behind the dish at Miller Park and Im the biggest Lucroy fan, screaming at Angel for not doing his work. C'est la vie "Coach" Enjoy the turkey

[molitor fan]

Lucroy didn't look very good and I was with several players and coaches who emphatically agreed and didnt even know who he was

 

I don't think you were watching the same game I was then. The throw to nail the base runner in the 2nd was as close to a perfect throw as was possible. I like you coach, and your program is exemplary, but your opinions on Lucroy are worthless to me because of your allegiance to Salome. Personally, I hope Salome can regain his prospect status that he lost due to his injury plagued season, because, as Hammer just stated, having 2 prospects is a rarity in Brewer catcher lore.

[coach32sm]

Was I watching the same game? Didn't they steal 3 bases off him? Or was that a different game? But 1 out of 4 is 25% and that's OK. and by the way, this biased stuff is ridiculous but then again I can take a hint so if you think my opinion is "worthless" then all of you have a great winter and enjoy your posts, I have a championship to win and a few careers to hopefully help, and then to pray that some of my kids get faster cause I went out on a limb on that. Sionara "Coach"

[sbrylski]

Was I watching the same game? Didn't they steal 3 bases off him? Or was that a different game? But 1 out of 4 is 25% and that's OK. and by the way, this biased stuff is ridiculous but then again I can take a hint so if you think my opinion is "worthless" then all of you have a great winter and enjoy your posts, I have a championship to win and a few careers to hopefully help, and then to pray that some of my kids get faster cause I went out on a limb on that. Sionara "Coach"

Just one or two guys, coach. Plenty enjoy your presence here.

[Menace II Sobriety]

Some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you treat the posters on this board. Who made you the all high and mighty? How can any of you even claim to have more insight than a guy that has coached one of the Brewers top prospects for almost a decade? You guys base your knowledge on some supposed insider reports and a few articles and have the audacity to criticize Coach who sees them train every day. If anyone would be critical of a player it would be his coach which; which shockingly he has been several times and stated that he is overcoming those obstacles.

 

I am not pro Salome or LuCroy but I am pro-catcher which I believe the Brewers spent something like the 3rd-4th most in the entire league on last season for Kendall production and feel either would be an upgrade this next season. As for Hiandtight trying to discredit Coach I am more than leery for several reasons.

 

Other than that how many pop times does he cover? How many world class track athletes has he worked with in order to discredit one of the most valued voices on this board? What has he done in 20 posts that makes his negativity worth more than a strong presence from a man who has always been straight-forward on this board?

 

I am sick of this negativity towards people in the know. Some of you should spend some time at orioleshangout.com and see how much they respect and appreciate inside knowledge instead of peeing all over it and pretending you know better.

 

Of course Coach is biased towards Salome at some level. He has known the kid for almost a decade and watched him grow from a boy to a man and into one of the top talents in the Brewers system. As some of you that have memories longer than 4 months will remember they refused to trade him, Gamel, or Escobar in the C.C. trade. Some insiders wrote that this meant that the Crew thought LaPorta was overrated in the baseball community and the Brewers agreed. Salome could have been the top prospect given in that trade and the management decided to hold onto him. Also being biased doesn't preclude Coach from being Salome'[s biggest critic "which has happened on occasion" Coach has named several faults that he Salome has improved over the offseason and also stated that he had a renewed workout routine. Yet many of you take this as conjecture and berate the man that gives us more insight into the prospects in 30 seconds than Haudricourt does in an offseason.

 

 

Some people on this board act as if Angel got all the way to AAA because Coach made it happen. Come on this guy knows talent and does not have the time to hype and promote players he doesn't believe in. And I never saw a negative comment towards LuCroy as some would like to propegate but instead asked for an open and free opportunity for all players to participate as anyone else would want.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/wa...mvrk&feature=related

[HiAndTight]

His high school IS the point, that is my point exactly, people throw things around that others say without getting the facts straight.

First of all, please bear with me. I'm trying to address your points as they came without taking up a lot of space quoting or cutting and pasting.

 

His high school IS the point, that is my point exactly, people throw things around that others say without getting the facts straight.

 

I'm trying very hard here to stay cordial, but no coach, it is not. I do not know how you can presume to know what "the point" is when it's my point. Once again, the "point" I was making is that he went to high school in the USA. Be it the Bronx or your high school, that does not matter. You attributed his inability to draw walks to him being Dominican, I'm trying to articulate to you that I don't buy that whatsoever as he came up HERE.

 

I'm trying to find a polite way of saying this, but this isn't about you, or your program, this is about one player, Angel Salome vs another, Jon Lucroy and who is better.

 

I respect that you believe you're going to have X numbers of players drafted and that X number are in your mind able to compete with anyone in the country, but that in no way impacts who's going to be catching for the Brewers in the near future.

 

 

 

Second, with respect to the "big lug" comment, please don't tell me I'm missing the point on this regard when you called me out and told me how I was wrong to think he's a big lug, AFTER I spoke about his substantial physical attributes, and then say, "well, so many people on this site...etc..etc...etc..".

 

They may well think one thing or another, but what I think I write and I think I wrote that pretty clearly. He's a very impressive athlete.

 

 

Third, you initially stated that he didn't walk because he was Dominican. You still haven't answered my point. You did tell me how long you coached and then stated that it's just how it is, but are you trying to say that regardless of where someone who is Dominican is raised that they will never be able to draw a walk consistently? If so, again, I don't buy it.

 

Now you're telling me it's a "New York thing". In any event, perhaps a change to your coaching theory may help as thatt's one of the biggest advantages Lucroy has over Salome. Please don't take that to be snide, but in all honesty, you seem to brush it aside as it's not that important. Well, it is. It's perhaps one of the 2-3 most important aspect of drawing runs and having an effective offense.

 

Finally on this matter, you can go up and down the list and find a plethora of Dominican players who carry very impressive OBP's, again dispelling the myth IMO that simply because you're Dominican you won't be able to walk.

 

 

 

As for how fast the kids you have are, it all sounds very impressive, and it sounds as though you have a very, very good program. I guess though it comes off as perhaps a bit of hyperbole when you say you guarantee this kid will drop this much time off, or how these kids have cut a full second off their 60 as adults.

 

 

 

I truly do not wish to get into a prolonged back and forth here coach, and I've long been a big fan of Angel Salome, but when you attempt to diminish Lucroy can talk about how terrible he looked, and make comments about Salome that frankly sound over the top and are in direct contrast with the prevailing scouts and every ranking, I suppose I question the validity of those comments.

[HiAndTight]

Was I watching the same game? Didn't they steal 3 bases off him? Or was that a different game? But 1 out of 4 is 25% and that's OK. and by the way, this biased stuff is ridiculous but then again I can take a hint so if you think my opinion is "worthless" then all of you have a great winter and enjoy your posts, I have a championship to win and a few careers to hopefully help, and then to pray that some of my kids get faster cause I went out on a limb on that. Sionara "Coach"

Again, with all due respect coach, Angel's CS rate in the minor leagues is just a shade over 25%.

 

So if Lucroy is terrible from this one game you watched, then I don't understand how you can say that Angel is so clearly superior.

 

As for your opinion coach, I do not think it's worthless whatsoever. I believe you're very close to Angel and as such, you are perhaps not as objective as others who are also very qualified to evaluate players.

 

So I don't know who that was in response to, but please do not confuse my disagreement with my thinking your opinion is worthless. I do not find that to be the case at all. I find it to be interesting, however, like a father talking about his son, perhaps to be taken with a grain of salt when the topic of Angel comes up.

[HiAndTight]

Some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you treat the posters on this board. Who made you the all high and mighty?

 

On a side note hiandtight; you kind of come across as the guy that roots for your sisters boyfriend when she lost her virginity instead of your sister. These guys are 2 great prospects in the organization there is no reason to hate one and love the other unless you are a mother lover.

Honestly until you tell us what you have done that gets you a ticket in this conversation you should quit pooping on Coach and his program because as far as we know you spend your time cross-breeding dyslexic one hooved calves and the value you bring to this board is less than a good salsa verde brings to my %@!# after a killer burrito.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/wa...mvrk&feature=related

High and mighty? I find it ironic that you're the one preaching about coming off high and mighty with a healthy dose of righteous indignation here.

 

 

 

What's more, I don't believe anyone claimed to have any more "insight" than coach, simply that I questioned the validity of some of his claims and I tried to do so in a respectful manner. If I failed, I apologize, but I have a hard time believing that Salome has sub 1.70 pop times, or that he's truly so advanced defensively while Lucroy is so incredibly poor because his coach and close friend tells me so.

 

 

If questioning that makes me come off as though I know more, then so be it.

 

As for your last paragraph, that time if mindless drivel really shouldn't warrent a response. Please don't speak to me about the tone of my posts because I dared to question a healthy dose of hyperbole.

 

 

What's more, I would say that the only one who's trying to diminish one of these prospects.......is coach. I've stated several times that I've been a huge Salome fan and that he's got incredible physical attributes, before I was corrected that he was not a "lug".

 

He was the one telling how just how awful Lucroy was because in ONE game he threw out "only" 1 of 4 base runners......or roughly the same pct that Salome has for his minor league career.

[Menace II Sobriety]

The big lug comment wasn't about you, moreso a perceived notion about Angel's lack of effectiveness lately that has been passing around the board and my point still stands hiandtight. Until you provide insight that has more authority than the Coach I don't want to hear your drivel. It is that simple. You have not earned any credibility on this board and have no worth to spout off the way you feel you are entitled too. It is that simple you are calling out a well respected member of this board and the baseball community and back it up with nothing more than conjecture.

 

If you would have read through previous threads to know what you were talking about or even maybe told us why you feel the ability to bash respected members than feel free. Personally I could care less what you have to say; you are trying to discredit Salome, because you can't believe their times. Well who the heck are you? What do you know about times and rehab that make you the authority? You refused to answer my question what do you do all day that makes you so qualified to call out a respected member of our community? I am not rooting either way but you can approach a comment to a respected poster without being so condescending.

[Mass Haas]

My thoughts as a staffie / moderator here, comment in the linked thread if you wish.

[colbyjack]

What the heck is the point of all of the arguing back and forth? It seems as though people (or one person) is arguing for the sake of arguing. Whatever your point may be, please drop it. This thread has taken a turn for the worse over the last day or two. If you want to continue your debate, take it to private messaging or email.

 

People have already brought it up but I'm going to say it again: The Brewers are in a great position in that they have two talented catching prospects that are on the cusp of playing in the big-leagues. That is a great problem to have, regardless of your preference between the two.

 

I don't know why that has drawn as much venom as is has.