Lucroy and Salome in 2010

[TooLiveBrew]

For those who dont want him around, well if he leaves, and goes somewhere else good luck with whom ever replaces him. If he stays I hope you can appreciate what a great person he is besides the player he is.

 

Coach, your contributions are always appreciated, but no one here doesn't want Angel around. No one has questioned his character, or work ethic. I understand it must be tough to read critical and/or negative things said about someone you obviously care for & have a lot of mutual respect with, but I don't think you should take away such an antagonistic feel from this community. I hope you continue to drop by & provide the helpful updates you normally do.

 

The Brewers are very fortunate to have both Angel & Jonathan in the system, so when there's an offseason with as much forecasted change like this one, I think rumors are bound to come up... and from that, inevitable critiques of both players. The fact that, like you said, Angel had a tough year in '09, probably leads to more favoring of Lucroy. Whether that's right or wrong of course remains to be seen, but it's very admittedly moreso a 'what have you done for me lately' approach than anything else. Scouts have questioned how well Angel will be able to defend on his way up the ladder, just like scouts questioned how Prince Fielder's body type would allow him to progress.

[coach32sm]

I was just reacting to people who probably never saw angel or for that matter many of the op prospects but they have strong opinions. anyway, the next guy you want to watch is my current SS (Mike Antonio)who is one of the top SS in the country and is in Jupiter now at the WWBA championship with one of the top teams in the tourny. He will be one of the top picks and maybe someday a Brewer, our 2B Xyruse (cyrus) Martinez is the next Pedroia (5'9 160) and every bit as good as Antonio but getting over looked because of his size, throws 90 on the mound as well. That's what Im excited about. Cant be in Jupiter this time because our Fall team messed up and didnt qualify so most of the kids are playing with different teams around the country. I couldnt go anyway due to surgery, but keep your eyes opened for those 2 if youre going down there. "Coach"

[SunGrasses]

We'll be in Jupiter on Saturday for the tournament. Our youngest son is pitching. We'll try to keep an eye out for your boys.

[colbyjack]

Coach, that's pretty cool that Mike hooked up with the Royals Scout Team. I know Dayton Moore has carried over a lot of philosophies from the Braves, including assembling their own teams for the WWBA World Championship so they get an up close look and feel for the players on the team. Best of luck to them, and best of luck to the Scorpions SunGrasses (congrats to them for winning the underclass, although I realize that's a separate team).

 

The East Cobb Astros, a perennial favorite at any tournament event, have another familiar naming gracing their roster: Ben Gamel. Best of luck to them as well in the event that lexi stops by to talk about catchers http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif.

 

EDIT: Coach, I'd love to get your thoughts on Robert Aviles if you've seen him pitch. He looked great at the Aflac game, and is one of my favorite arms for the 2010 draft. The times I have seen him pitch, he reminds me a lot of Chris Tillman, who is now with the Orioles.

[nate82]

Salome right now is just not ready for MLB. What I was talking about is not Salome being horrible at defense but a hypothetical of him actually being horrible which would hurt the Brewers more next year than his bat could help them. If the Brewers were in the AL they would have had him up already playing as the DH and being the backup catcher. Salome's questionable defense would then not be a problem since he wouldn't be starting the majority of his games behind the plate.

 

I still do not like Salome's foot work he still needs work there behind the plate. His arm has definitely become more accurate over the last couple of years which was part of what was worrying me about him last year. If Salome can get his foot work done better he will be in Milwaukee next year I just don't see him starting the year there.

[yoshii8]

Nate, I'd like to know what you are basing your information on?

[nate82]

Nate, I'd like to know what you are basing your information on?

From what I have seen from him. Granted it has only been a few games and those may have been just a few bad days that I saw of him but his foot work wasn't right the times that I saw him. He wasn't able to get over and block the ball correctly and not being able to throw out a runner because he had some bad foot work. That is basically what I saw of the few times I have seen him play.

 

Like I said it could have been just a bad couple of games. But I came off with the impression that his foot work needed work behind the plate.

[yoshii8]

Where they this year? How can you be so sure that he has no chance of becoming our catcher this year by only seeing a few games?

[nate82]

Where they this year? How can you be so sure that he has no chance of becoming our catcher this year by only seeing a few games?

By the quotes from Money and others questioning his defense. I just do not see Salome being the starter this next season. Two were from this year and three from last year. There was definitely some improvement that I liked over last year I just don't see Salome as the #1 catcher in Milwaukee next season. I also don't see Gamel working out at 3B and would rather see him in the OF but that is just me.

 

I am not the holy gospel on what a prospect is or isn't. I am just stating my opinion yoshii8 that is all. I just don't see Salome as the starting catcher next year for the Brewers.

[coach32sm]

Just out of curiosity, how old are you or what is your baseball background, just curious as to how you know about catchers footwork? I have put 2 catchers into the major leagues and had a high catcher draft pick in 08 I I currently have the best catching prospect of 2012 and one at 2011 (platooning with some DH and 1B) all from the same HS, thats pretty amazing and all those kids had to work their butts off with footwork, many struggle and some have a hard time understanding it. Angel was such a great athlete that he had little trouble with his footwork unless he rushed his throws and usually that was because he sometimes just wanted to trust his arm or show it off, it was really never the footwork but the other things. Their are several ways to get into throwing position with your feet, some coaches and some organizations do it differently, I show a variety to my catchers and work on what's best for them and their body type, understandability, athleticism, and other things. angel has changed a few times as to how he "gets there" and we work hard in the off season, he picks things up quickly and understands what he is trying to accomplish. (Now if you're talking about hitting mechanics, that's another story, he doesn't have a clue, he know about hitting but how to get to where he has to be is another story, but it works, again, because of his tremendous strength and athleticism) So in short, what are you seeing that Im not, is it the things you read. I told Angel a long time ago, after he hit 400 in the low minors that many organizations move players slowly (Brewers being one except maybe for Braun) so in that case if you are tearing it up and doing great and they want you to succeed on EACH level they will find fault so you dont ask yourself "why are they not moving me?" If you agent calls and says "hey he was MVP, hit 400, Allstar, hit 360 in AA etc etc. what's taking you so long to move him up?" They will say something like "He needs to work on his defense" That shuts everybody up. Angel was prepared for all negative criticism, but others sometimes don't understand the business side of the game. Lucroy and Angel are both top catching prospect and they will fight it out, I think Angel has a slight edge because he has played at a high level, but neither one will start next year. You dont take a 23 year old prospect and make him a backup. They cant go into 2010 without a starter, they will probably sign Molina. If one of the two guys tears it up in Spring that might change but the Brewers might make a move during the winter. "Coach PS Mike Antonio, my SS will be performing in the Bo Jackson 5 tool challenge today in Jupiter, one of only a few selected (They lost to East Cobb yesterday). Xyruse Martinez hit a game winning 2 run single yesterday and my pitchers should throw today. Nestor Bautista threw a perfect inning on Thursday night. Wish I could have been there instead of sitting here with a cast on my arm and waitng for the results Talk to you soon

[DHonks]

coach,

 

Colby (Patrick) and myself has proposed splitting Salome and Lucroy in the big leagues. It would not overexpose them offensively, but would give them a solid way to break into the big leagues. Besides wanting a guy to play every day, what would you see as the pros and cons to this? It's sort of what wound up happening in AZ with Snyder and Montero. I figure that with catchers especially, having two good catchers would take away some of the wear-and-tear that adversely impacts catchers offensively, defensively, and with injury-risk.

[coach32sm]

That sounds good but I would think the Brewers would want one guy, knowing the other one is available in case of injury or for trade bait, it would be difficult and most improbable to see that scenario but as you indicated it was done with the Diamondbacks, so maybe the Brewcrew will follow the lead and try it. spring training will be a big indicator for both, but as I said I doubt if the front office will sit by and do nothing during the off season when catching is a big hole to fill and the two prospects are unproven so far. "Coach"

[nate82]

What I found from Salome when I saw him a few times was that his feet were out of position when he was throwing out a runner he was using his arm more than his feet. He wasn't coming fully set and his throws were off the mark it was as though he was rushing everything instead of letting everything come naturally to him. I haven't coached baseball I have only played it and I played some catcher. I understand the fundamentals of the position and what I saw was Angel not using his feet and using his arm. This is usually common in younger players though since they like to use their arm more so than be mechanically sound this also effects younger pitchers.

 

It may have just been the games where I was at and Salome was doing more thinking than just letting everything come natural to him. I just do not see him as the everyday catcher for the Brewers next year he still needs a little bit more seasoning behind the plate. Plus I don't want to see Salome sitting on the bench in Milwaukee I would rather see him playing nearly everyday in AAA over only playing 2-4 games a week in Milwaukee and maybe even less so depending on what management would do with Salome.

 

I don't want to see what happened to Gamel happen to Salome. That is the last thing I want to see happen to Salome not only does it hurt the Brewers but it hurts the confidence of the player. They will start to question themselves why they are not starting and then they will start pushing things and making mistakes which will then be stuck in their heads for a long time maybe even damaging them psychologically.

 

I want to see Salome in Milwaukee but I just don't believe the timing is right. I do believe Salome will be up sometime next year I just don't see it happening right away. I believe Salome will be like Braun he will be brought up around May or June basically to prove to the Brewers that he is ready defensively and offensively to play in Milwaukee. What the Brewers can not afford to happen is bringing up Salome and his defense starts to hurt his offense. The Brewers need to know that Salome will be 100% ready both offensively and defensively before they bring him up.

[coach32sm]

That sounds like a plan, but again, if they bring up Salome as they did with Braun, in May or June, who is doing the catching until then? My guess, Benji molina, then there will be no need for Salome, keep rivera as the back up once a week or so. If the Brewers don't make a move and believe in their prospects, then Spring Training will be the big test, and yeah what they did with Gamel is what a lot of organizations do to kids and some never recover. I coached a kid on the US team that was a TOP< TOP prospect projected in my books as a 40 130 guy got dicked around in the Arizona chain where he consistently hit 30 and 125 and .300. But they had so many prospects and never brought him up or traded him until recently and now he's with the Red Sox and has the same problem, doesn't look like the same kid to me and I know if he plays he would be a big time hitter. Had Jason Werth once too, but he was a catcher then and he was moved OK then traded to the right place at the right time. "Coach"

[DHonks]

Coach, if that's Chris Carter, he was my favorite guy from when I did some work for the Dbacks. He's quirky, but fun, and can mash

[coach32sm]

Yeah it is Chris. He was a 5 tool guy before he had surgery, moved to 1B and then lost a lot of speed due to bulking up so much. He's got a lightning bat and should be in somebodys everyday line up

[TheCrew07]

Carter has been amazingly consistent (with the exception of this last season when his OPS dropped to a .823), he'll get a shot with someone.

[nate82]

Carter is now in the Mets organization he was sent to the Mets to complete the Wagner trade. Source. He is also on the Mets 40 man roster now. I bet he gets some playing time with the Mets next year.

[Never Outhustled]

Carters stats are strong, but they take a hit when you curve them for park factors. Throw in that he's a poor defender, and I don't see much there. He's the same age as Adam Heether, but he isn't as versatile, and didn't have nearly the season Heether did this year.

[DHonks]

X, when I look at the A's giving Cust a shot in their OF and Dunn in the Nationals, I tend to think that sometimes the offense can outweigh the defense. Carter would probably compare favorably all-around to a Carlos Lee if given opportunities

[Never Outhustled]

X, when I look at the A's giving Cust a shot in their OF and Dunn in the Nationals, I tend to think that sometimes the offense can outweigh the defense. Carter would probably compare favorably all-around to a Carlos Lee if given opportunities

True defensively, but were not talking about a 900 OPS guy like those guys are. Carter isn't that in AAA, he'd be more likely a mid 700 OPS in the majors. The majors is nothing like the Cal League or the west division of the PCL. Carter was only a little above average offensively in those leagues, not dominant.

 

I don't see how he compares to Gamel. Carter has not been as good offensively when you curve thier stats, he's a LF, not a 3B, and he's been older at each level. He's never wasted his time on a MLB bench.Carter could be a nice 5th OF/1st PH off the bench, but he doesn't compare to a potential All-Star 3B.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't want to see what happened to Gamel happen to Salome.

 

I completely agree on this one, Crew07. I would rather just not rush Angel & plan on having him at AAA for all 2010. Of course, Lucroy & Salome both being in the picture complicates that kind of plan... which is why I think one will be shipped out this offseason. I honestly don't know which one I would prefer to see retained or dealt. Seems like a very good 'bad' situation for the Crew.

[coach32sm]

Angel is ready, believe me and will be even more so when Feb comes!!!

[TheCrew07]

I don't want to see what happened to Gamel happen to Salome.

 

I completely agree on this one, Crew07.

Where/when did I say that? That is one of my fears if a veteran catcher is brought in though.

[nate82]

I don't want to see what happened to Gamel happen to Salome.

 

I completely agree on this one, Crew07.

Where/when did I say that? That is one of my fears if a veteran catcher is brought in though.

He was quoting me but I'll let you take credit for it.