Bill Hall traded to Mariners for P Ruben Flores

[And That]

I bet Bill Hall puts up better numbers than Ruben Flores this season.

[logan82]

I bet Bill Hall puts up better numbers than Ruben Flores this season.

As a pitcher?

[RockCoCougars]

Wow, really? Cameron has been our 3rd best hitter this year.(I exclude part time players) An .808 OPS is nothing to scoff at especially with good defense in CF.

I just don't get the love for Mike Cameron here. Everyone goes on and on about what a great player he is, but I don't see it. I'll give you that he's a good centerfielder, but he strikes out way too much for my tastes. Going further, he has driven in 12 runs since the 4th of July. In seven weeks of playing almost everyday, that is pathetic (yes, I know that many of you think that RBI's are a worthless stat). If my recollection is correct, he disappeared in a very similar way last season. In my opinion, he is not worth anywhere near $10 million a year, and the only way that I'd take him back is at a significant pay cut.

[homer]

Actaully, Cameron was en fuego the month of August last year (1.200 OPS) and then faded in Sept. Regardless he's still very valuable. I don't think people realize how mediocre most centerfielders are.

[logan82]

he strikes out way too much for my tastes.

 

Not a big deal

 

Going further, he has driven in 12 runs since the 4th of July.

 

Not a big deal either. RBI is a terrible stats to judge anything.

 

In my opinion, he is not worth anywhere near $10 million a year, and the only way that I'd take him back is at a significant pay cut.

 

All I can say to that is I totally disagree with your way of evaluating players. Cameron has the 6th best wOBA and is 7th best in UZR/150 among CF this year. Bourn and Kemp are the only players to rank higher in both.

[jeffy]

Cameron's defense also makes the other two outfielders look better as well as the pitching (sucky as it is, it'd be worse without Cameron out there).

[kramnoj]

Per this link: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/53843957.html the Mariners are stuck with Hall's 2010 option as well, so the Brewers are really saving about $1.75M. That's the first time I have seen that reported.

[fondybrewfan]

Bill had a pretty solid debut for the Mariners last night playing LF. 2-4 and a couple RBI's

[Invader3K]

Good for him. He'll probably have an opportunity to start next season if he puts up decent numbers through the end of this season.

[jeffy]

...so the Brewers are really saving about $1.75M.

Except that someone else has pointed out that anyone picking him up after release would have to pay pro-rated share of ML minimum for the remainder of this season (that'd be ~ $100K), and then $400K next year and presumably the following year? So maybe the trade really saved only about $850,000?

[kramnoj]

I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would the Brewers pay the $400k minimum for Hall in 2011?

[dadofandrew]

Hall could always hit LHP, save for a tiny sample in '09, and that was far from horrible. If they can limit his PT versus RHP, hit versus lefties, used a defensive replacement late at 3B otherwise, until Beltre gets back at least. For the money, that's all they'll expect.

[mothershipconnection]

I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would the Brewers pay the $400k minimum for Hall in 2011?

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how that works. I'd assume you only get relief from salary, and not buyouts (e.g. the Brewers would not save an amount equal to league minimum from Hall's buyout since he's not being paid $500K to play, but to terminate a contract).

[PeaveyFury]

anyone picking him up after release would have to pay pro-rated share of ML minimum for the remainder of this season (that'd be ~ $100K), and then $400K next year and presumably the following year?

 

I don't believe it's applicable to the buyout year (as mothership said). So the Brewers would have saved about 500k regardless of what team he was on (assuming, of course, that he didn't retire/leave baseball or something odd like that), but because of this deal saved an additional 1.25 million and 1.75 million overall.

[RockCoCougars]

All I can say to that is I totally disagree with your way of evaluating players. Cameron has the 6th best wOBA and is 7th best in UZR/150 among CF this year. Bourn and Kemp are the only players to rank higher in both.

 

No question about it.

 

Cameron reminds me of Jose Hernandez, and the arguments that I would get into about him striking out. I will agree with the sabermaticians that strikeouts don't matter when there is no one on base, but a strike out with one out and guys on second and third is much 'worse' than actually putting the ball in play. Especially when you are hitting in the 6 spot in the N.L. on a team like the Brewers where the 7 guy can be pitched around and an automatic out like Kendall is hitting 8th. Nothing more frustrating then watching a guy strikeout with guys in scoring position, especially with a guy on 3rd when the defense is conceding a run. Fielder is second in the league in getting on base - 221 times. He's scored 75 runs with 33 of those coming on home runs. When he gets on base without hitting a home run, he only scores 22 percent of the time. Somebody isn't getting the job done, and Cameron is a major culprit.

[logan82]

but a strike out with one out and guys on second and third is much 'worse' than actually putting the ball in play.

 

Cameron has 10 PA with runners on 2nd and 3rd this year. 0 strikeouts. Nobody would deny that in certain situations a strikeout is worse than a regular out. Trying to break things down under 100 PA and trying to claim they are anything other than very random makes for a very weak argument.

[derflotr]

Not to mention that if Fielder does no more than a single and less than a HR it's going to take two hits for him to score the majority of the time.

[Weirdos19]

Wow, really? Cameron has been our 3rd best hitter this year.(I exclude part time players) An .808 OPS is nothing to scoff at especially with good defense in CF.

I just don't get the love for Mike Cameron here. Everyone goes on and on about what a great player he is, but I don't see it. I'll give you that he's a good centerfielder, but he strikes out way too much for my tastes. Going further, he has driven in 12 runs since the 4th of July. In seven weeks of playing almost everyday, that is pathetic (yes, I know that many of you think that RBI's are a worthless stat). If my recollection is correct, he disappeared in a very similar way last season. In my opinion, he is not worth anywhere near $10 million a year, and the only way that I'd take him back is at a significant pay cut.

He's a great centerfielder. He makes tough catches look easy. He's the opposite of Jim Edmonds. His defense is worth about 5million alone. And batting anyone else in the lineup other than Cam, Braun and McGehee behind Prince would mean 200 walks in a season.

 

Plus, Braun and Prince have driven in a ton of runs in front of Cameron. When the bases are clean most of the time you get to the plate, it's hard to drive in runs. That's why only one leadoff man has driven in 100 runs in the history of the MLB. Plus, Cam isn't gonna see a ton of good pitches with Catalanotto, Kendall, and sometimes the pitcher hitting behind him.

 

Hall goes out and gets two hits and now he's gonna outperform many of the players in Milwaukee? Gimme a break. I heard nobody complaining when he was sitting on the bench here every single night . None.

 

We got 1.75? million for the 25th man on our roster.

[jaybird2001wi]

Bill Hall's Profile as a Mariner. As a player who spent his entire career with the Brewers, he looks weird in a dark blue. That and he is wearing Ned Yost's old number. Is that an omen or something?

[kramnoj]

Nothing more frustrating then watching a guy strikeout with guys in scoring position, especially with a guy on 3rd when the defense is conceding a run.

 

Cameron this season with RISP: .755 OPS with a .393 OPB, 28 BB and 23 K in 135 PA and 31 RBI.

 

Cameron this season with man only on 3B and less than 2 out: .491 OPS. True, it's awful. It's also only 26 PA. And he only has 1 K in those PAs.

[Fatter than Joey]

Per this link: the Mariners are stuck with Hall's 2010 option as well, so the Brewers are really saving about $1.75M. That's the first time I have seen that reported.

 

I am guessing you meant "2011 option" and not "2010 option" -- Just so everyone is clear here is how things break down as I see it:

 

Hall's contract situation

 

2009 -- $6.8M Guaranteed

2010 -- $8.4M Guaranteed

2011 -- $9.25M -- with a $500K option to buyout.

 

Once the Brewers decided to DFA Hall, they were on the hook for ~$1.6M + $8.4M + $500K

 

The 1.6M is an estimate of the portion of salary owed for 2009, 8.4M is for 2010, and of course the 500K is for the 2011 buyout. -- The total that Hall would be owed would be $10.5M -- If Hall would have not found a new team to pick him up -- The Brewers would have had to pay him $10.5M through the end of 2010, this would be the maximum that the Brewers would pay directly to Hall.

 

Now, if the Brewers would have DFA'd Hall, and not made a trade, yet Hall would have been signed as a FA by some team, then they would have paid Hall the league minimum, which is $400K. They would pay Hall ~$100K for the remainder of 2009, and the entire $400K for 2010 --- for a total of $500K. It is important to understand, that this ~$500K, is not "in addition" to the Brewers contract, but rather it would pay a portion of the existing contract.

 

So in 2009 Hall would receive a check for ~$100K from his new team, and ~$1.5M from the Brewers for a total of ~$1.6M. In 2010 Hall would get $8M from the Brewers and $400K from the new team.

 

If this trade with Seattle had not been made -- and Hall would have signed with another team -- The Brewers would have gotten ~$500K. in salary relief. It is incorrect to say "Hall would have been signed for nothing" -- although $500K isn't that significant.

 

Seattle traded some Flores guy, and then sent the Brewers $1.75M in cash to the Brewers to help pay Hall's contract.

 

If Seattle wanted to just sign Hall, they could have done it for $500K, instead of paying the Brewers addition $1.25M -- however, Beltre contused his testicles, leaving the M's with a hole at 3b, and there were probably multiple teams interested in Hall - so the only way to guarantee acquiring Hall's service was to trade for him.

 

Here is the bottom line.

 

DM gave Hall a terrible contract, and the Brewers will end up paying Hall about $8.75M to play for other teams in 2009-2011. DM did soften the blow by getting an additional $1.25M back by working out a trade with SEA. we could have had to pay Hall $10M.

[Invader3K]

Just got a tweet from MLB Trade Rumors that Harang is done for the year after an emergency appendectomy (what are the odds of that?). Guess I'm glad they didn't trade for him now.

[jeffy]

anyone picking him up after release would have to pay pro-rated share of ML minimum for the remainder of this season (that'd be ~ $100K), and then $400K next year and presumably the following year?

 

I don't believe it's applicable to the buyout year (as mothership said).

 

Yeah, that makes sense, since had they kept him and paid him the $500K buyout, he'd then be free to collect a salary for playing for any other team during that season (2011).

 

Much too early to conclude that the trade has turned things around for him, of course, but Hall has 4 hits in 9 ABs as a Mariner.

[twobrewers]

Bill Hall is batting .250 since joining the Mariners.

 

He just had an 0-5 day with 5 strikeouts(!) while playing LF. Bill Hall must have negative value as a left fielder. If Seattle isn't willing to play him at CF, SS or 2B - I have no idea why they would have traded for him.

[pete]

He played a game at 2B and "robbed" some infield singles according to one of the gamethreads. Seems like every time I check out one of them, there is someone saying "I love Bill Hall." After he was DFA'd, I'd read stuff by fans of other teams that said they don't want him because he's bad defensively. I guess he must have had a bad UZR, but one thing he can do is play defense. Where his bat went and whether it'll ever come back, I have no idea.