Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies

[Cooper]

I've done fairly well reading him in the past. This isn't new for me.

 

I guess this might be the first time in the Melvin era pre-trade that I don't see the point in making the deal. Maybe I'm just down on Lieber more than the rest of you. I'd rather throw a rookie out there as a 5th starter than a aging veteran who could possibly break down at any moment, and you'd still owe him a U-haul filled with dough. It'd be cheaper to eat contracts.

 

If there's more to the deal, fine. I guess at face value doesn't make much sense to me. The Overbay deal (the pre-trade rumor version) made more sense than this one to me. That one made perfect sense afterwards. I guess if this thing does go down, I can only hope for the same.

[splitterpfj]

I'd rather throw a rookie out there as a 5th starter than a aging veteran who could possibly break down at any moment

 

After seeing what happened when we ran Hendrickson/Eveland/Jackson out there last year....I do not agree.

 

As for the money...Lieber is up for 7.5, isn't Mench expected to be around 4 million next season? How much will Turnbow get, the money seems like it should be reasonable.

 

If it's not Leiber, that's ok with me, but I absolutely want one more starting pitcher for next season. Having Vargas and Villanueva guaranteed spots in the rotation, with minor league options of a not-ready Jackson and a VERY young Gallardo next in line...does not make me happy. That's rotten depth in my opinion, if someone goes down, so do we.

[saget]

Lieber, ugh...

[hauser42]

What else is new? I wonder how hanging on to Joel Hanrahan, Edwin Jackson and Greg Miller worked out for them.

 

 

Jackson got send off to D-Rays last spring for Baez. Jackson has actually gone down the last couple of years.

 

 

I'm a little confused on the Dodgers....they have Ethier and Kemp with Pierre in the OF...but they want to add one. Are they not sold on Kemp or something?

 

I think McCourt (owner) is feeling fan pressure to produce a World Series winner. Hell if they could win a playoff series it would be an upgrade. I do know that they think Kemp growth was stunted by being called up last year.

[Big Reed]

the comment if someone goes down, so do we is perplexing. how much lower can we go? are you expecting the brewers with their current cast to be division or wild card contenders?

 

it's kind of simple- if lieber gets injured, you give Yo or jackson a chance to shine. if they do badly, it's not as if the brewers are the denver broncos with the play-offs in sight.

 

the brewers are the brewers.

[thefutureishere2006]

i just dont think turnbow should be given up on after one half year of bad pitching.

[splitterpfj]

Actually Big Reed, I do think the Brewers can contend for the post-season in 2007. I think they need another pitcher, and I need to see how they sort out the LF spot. No matter how you slice it, they have to get durability and productivity out of Sheets, Hardy and Weeks.

 

Yep, that's a lot of ifs, but the NL stinks right now and I'm not sold on anyone in the Central yet. Ask me when more questions are answered, both here, and around the division.

 

On top of that, Mr Gallardo turns 21 in February, it would be very foolish to ride the whip on a young talent like that...he can get here in 2008, that's fine with me. Sooner works if we need him and he's ready to go, but waiting one more season seems preferable to me....he can buy his first six-pack in a few months.

 

I would not play this as though the team can't get there next season, there is no machine to compete with, everyone has holes to fill.

[billyhallfan]

I'm not really excited about this deal, why would we give up Mench and Turnbow for a one year rental on a guy who is far past his prime? I understand boosting the pitching and all, but I don't think that Lieber is all that big of an upgrade over Villanueva or Jackson. I would much rather see them trade Turnbow/Mench/Jenkins for pitchers that can help the Brewers past this year. Now that being said, I don't expect to get top pitching arms in return either, there has to be a happy medium.

[Patrick425]

Because this is a rumor right now, it won't happen as stated. Maybe the Brewers and Phillies will make a trade and maybe some, all, or none of these players that are mentioned will be involved, but I doubt it would go down exactly as stated in Rotoworld. I can't remember the last time a trade went down exactly as rumored (I'm sure someone will bring up several examples now). If it did go down like this, I would be somewhat dissapointed, unless the Phillies ate some of Lieber's contract.

 

I keep waiting for Turnbow to test positive for Steroids. I know that this was under the very stringent Olympic comittee standards, but does anyone remember this?:

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/040107turnbow.html

I mean, hey, Mongo has no neck...it's just a hunch.

[AJ Love]

Quote:

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if the phils take mench off our hands and the dodgers sign luis gonzalez whats left for jenkins ?

---

 

Baltimore. Or, as we called it when I was growing there part of the time in the 70's, "Ball-mer"

[MHgb]

Quote:

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i just dont think turnbow should be given up on after one half year of bad pitching.

---

 

Pre-Brewers was bad pitching, too. No control, etc. Which is the same problem he had this past season.

[ECThirdWard]

Patrick, thanks for that Turnbow link. I had to laugh out loud at some of qoutes. You can almost see him - hair-pulled over the eyes, zero expression - saying these things...

 

"I didn't know that what I was taking was going to make me fail a drug test, period."

 

"What happened is bad publicity."

 

"I never would have failed a drug test if I hadn't volunteered for USA Baseball."

 

You know I love him to death, but he is not a smart guy.

[Invader3K]

I think having a veteran pitcher would be a nice alternative to the young guys we've been trotting out to fill holes, as others have stated. Lieber's posted an ERA higher than 4.20 in the last three years, though. I think as a fifth starter he'd be fine. I really don't feel like giving up Turnbow and Mench is that big a sacrifice.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

OK, in retrospect, after taking a deeper look at Cole hamels, you guys are probably right that Philly never gives him to us for those 2 rummies.

 

That said, I want a #4 or #5 pitcher who's NOT 37-ish and broken down, expensive AND most importantly, going to leave as a free agent a few months later. Hamels is not that guy, which I accept. But who is?

[hauser42]

I don't get how anybody thinks we can get more.

 

Everybody on these boards were convinced that both of these guys hurt our team in the second half last year. I personally winced every time either of them played. Especially Turnbow.

 

We get a servicable starter for guys that should be on the scrap heap.

 

Talk about "homers".

 

T-Bow is not on the scrap heap. He has a lot of time left. Closers go through rough periods during careers.

 

Mench still has some upside and going to that park should hit 30 HRs in his sleep.

 

I think Jenks is on a downward trend and just about done.

 

My feeling is we should be able to get Lieber do to his age for just one of these guys not two of them.

[clancyphile]

Lieber's not bad - particularly when you view it as "buying time to fully develop one of Villanueva, Gallardo, or Dillard."

 

Looking over his page at baseball-reference, I see a lot to like. Even with a bit of a slump last year, his K/BB was 4:1. His WHIP was 1.31. In previous years, his ERA was around 4.00, rather than 5.00.

 

I was never thrilled with getting Mench in the Carlos Lee trade. It would have been far better to just get Codero and Nix, plus the minor-leaguer. He just did not fit in, and he took playing time away from Corey Hart and Gabe Gross.

 

Losing Turnbow will hurt, though. I don't think he'd reach 2005 performance, but is he as bad as he was in the second half of 2006? No. He'd be a decent option closer once he gets straightened out some.

[brettac1]

I like Lieber quite a bit. It really shows how stupid it was to give that contract to Turnbow last year, too. If his salary was like $500,000, or something, they could just let him see if he can work it out. Instead, they get to firesale him, since they have something like $10 million tied up in the pen.

 

Mench is/was terrible, and I was unenthused (to say the least) when they got him in the Lee trade. So, I'll be glad to see him gone, whether it's to Philly or elsewhere.

 

Basically, I agree with clancy.

[JohnBriggs12]

I've alternately read posts in this thread and others that say we need to "fully develop" pitchers and we "can't throw rookies" out there because of what happened with Hendrickson, Eveland, and Jackson and that's why we just have to have a veteran.

 

Yes those specific 3 rookies didn't do so well. But Villanueva did do well and because he did well, a. he is no longer a rookie and b. should be in the rotation.

 

The problem the Brewers had with rookie pitchers in 06 is that they failed to identify the best one until they went through 3 other guys first. That's an organizational failure, and should not be an indictment of rookie pitchers in general nor should Villanueva pay for others failures. I seem to recall the Marlins had 4 rookies in their rotation for most of 06 and how'd they do?

[brettac1]

The problem the Brewers had with rookie pitchers in 06 is that they failed to identify the best one until they went through 3 other guys first

 

Moreso, it was just the lack of solid depth in general - both in the rotation and bullpen. Helling was counted on (probably foolishly) to be the 6th starter, then he got hurt and that was shot. Then, the rookies other than Villanueva were terrible. Getting Lieber makes sense, if only because it gives them another arm capable of being league average. Then Villanueva can get more AAA time (though I am fine with him as the #5 today), and be ready when called upon.

 

This is basically what Oakland, as one example, did. They basically had 7 starters last year on their opening day roster (though Kennedy didn't start any games). When Harden and Loaiza got hurt, they were able to turn to Saarloos and Halsey. Not great pitchers by any means, but the ability to be average is severely undervalued.

[endaround]

A broken done Jenkins=Mench career average

 

And that doesn't even account for defense

[Invader3K]

I think the troubling thing with Turnbow was just how far he fell off in the second half last year. It wasn't like he was just dropping a run here and there...it was like he became a completely different pitcher from his dominant first half form. It was clearly a "mental component" issue, and who can really say if he'll get over it fully or not?

[danzig6767]

It really shows how stupid it was to give that contract to Turnbow last year, too. If his salary was like $500,000, or something, they could just let him see if he can work it out. Instead, they get to firesale him

 

Why do they have to firesale Turnbow?What would that extra 2 million they would save this year do for the Brewers?Hell,they just wasted 6 million dollars on a 35 year old slap hitting backup infielder.

 

If Turnbow can be swapped for something that helps the team then i'm all for it,but i sure wouldn't just give him away to clear his pocket change salary.I'd rather see if he can turn things around than firesale the guy to simply shed his small contract.

[sbrylski]

I think hitter just figured him out and he didn't know how to adjust. He seemed to always stuggle to throw his slider/slurve pitch for a strike, even when he was pitching well. Hitters finally figured out that if you just wait for a fastball, you'll either get a hit or he'll walk you throwing slurves.

[dadofandrew]

They basically had 7 starters last year on their opening day roster (though Kennedy didn't start any games). When Harden and Loaiza got hurt, they were able to turn to Saarloos and Halsey. Not great pitchers by any means, but the ability to be average is severely undervalued.

 

That's exactly what I want, only Carlos V in AAA, Zach J in AAA, and maybe one guy in the bullpen at least kind of capable of being a 5-6 inning man for a start or two.

[Team Canada]

That's exactly what I want, only Carlos V in AAA, Zach J in AAA, and maybe one guy in the bullpen at least kind of capable of being a 5-6 inning man for a start or two.

 

 

Yes those specific 3 rookies didn't do so well. But Villanueva did do well and because he did well, a. he is no longer a rookie and b. should be in the rotation.

 

 

I agree with #2, and disagree with #1. What more does CV need to do? Stashing him in AAA is a waste, except for making us feel good about having pitching depth.