Is Hardy's FA delayed a year?

[dadofandrew]

They'll bring him back on 9/1, to ensure the union does not file a grievance. I think that will be 19 days. Doug was not even sure of the amount of time, telling Tom H it was 18 or 20. Given Hardy's lack of anger about his demotion, gleefully accepting his 3 days of rest, I think it's safe to say he might lack a bit of fire, which I'm sure was noticed.

 

I doubt anyone even noticed the service time until later, I never gave it a thought, thinking it was 30 days or less.

[Brewer Fever]

You're really feeling this issue, aren't you Brewer Fever?

I'm just trying to explain the rationale behind the timing and consequences of this move, more specifically the lackthereof. It's proven fruitless and quite frustrating. I apologize for letting my frustration get the best of me.

[Brewer Fever]

They'll bring him back on 9/1, to ensure the union does not file a grievance. I think that will be 19 days. Doug was not even sure of the amount of time, telling Tom H it was 18 or 20. Given Hardy's lack of anger about his demotion, gleefully accepting his 3 days of rest, I think it's safe to say he might lack a bit of fire, which I'm sure was noticed.

Careful. I've said each and every one of these things in various places and it's given me nothing but grief. Perhaps, I can pass the baton of debating this topic on over to you. Sound like a plan?

[dadofandrew]

No one disputes Cameron plays the game extremely hard. Hardy simply seems a bit "weak", he and his brother (who went through a lot more than JJ) sitting through that summer years ago, missing many games with a "sore back", and so on. I think he may be having a rough year because he knows he's going to be dealt and having trouble focusing.

 

Let's be honest, if Braun is "weak", no one cares, 'cause he's great. JJ too, until now. His comment about "the coaches staring at me" seemed very out of place from an adult too, grow up.

 

As I have always said, I'd a lot rather have to settle guys down than motivate them. JJ seems more the latter. That's not really a criticism, as I'll take 25 guys who are lazy and really talented over 25 gritty, crappy players any day. JJ's an above average SS, and he'll be back in the bigs soon. Sadly, his trade value is minuscule now compared to LY.

[1992casey]

The 20 days thing is clear in the contract. What isn't always clear when a day at the beginning or end of a demotion counts as a day in the majors or a day in the minors.

 

I'm sure that's why Melvin was deferring to Ash. There've been moves in the past where Gord has been the spokesman regarding the rules. I'd guess he's the one in charge of knowing the repercussions of player moves and keeping in contact with the commissioner's office when any gray area is involved.

[Hate those Rodents]

How would his free agency work should he happen to get hurt in AAA now that he's been demoted and can't come back til say mid-September?

[Invader3K]

(Posted this in another thread, but it's more relevant here).

 

The more I think about it, I really hope JJ Hardy stays down the minimum 20 days (or whatever it is). If the team is committed to Escobar, they will get much more value trading JJ Hardy with two years service time left instead of just one. I don't care if it makes him angry, his poor play this season has made me angry enough.

[endaround]

If Hardy gets injured he get no major league service time.

 

 

edit: Its also important to keep in mind that a 4th year of arby is basically the same salary as a free agent so from the player's prospective there isn't too much difference assuming no injury. So for position players it isn't too big of a deal, for pitchers it can be of course. In Hardy's case the economy might swing around again so he might actually make more money one year later on.

[JJHardy7]

I don't get why some think that at 12:01 AM on September 1st every player on the 40-man is getting called up. It doesn't always work that way. IIRC last year the Brewers waited until the 2nd:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/transactions?team=mil&year=2008

I think the 'plan' (if there is one) is to keep JJ there until the 2nd, but an injury could easily scrap that plan. There also might be an agreement that JJ is going to be traded in the off-season or something along that line. Losing a service year would stink, but the Brewers could easily choose to have Escobar the starting SS and JJ on the bench...that would stink more. I'm not saying anything is 100% guaranteed...I just think it's been overblown a bit here. There could be an agreement stating that the Brewers will trade JJ if they are going with Escobar as the starter next year...this gives JJ a chance to at least show some type of value.

[dadofandrew]

Small market teams do not pay reserves $7-8M to sit on the bench. JJ was gone before, and he certainly is now, barring injury.

[JJHardy7]

Small market teams do not pay reserves $7-8M to sit on the bench. JJ was gone before, and he certainly is now, barring injury.

You get paid the same in MLB as AAA, AA, or A for that matter if you're JJ or Hall from what I understand. It's not like JJ or Hall would take a pay cut playing in Nashville.

[Ennder]

Hardy won't get anywhere near $7-8M next year given his production this year. I agree his days are numbered for us but if Escobar comes up and is crappy for a month we easily could start next year with Hardy at SS but on the block if no trades surface during the off season.

[Brewer Fever]

Now TH has a report up saying that if JJ isn't called back up before 9/1, he'll lose a year. TH quotes the rule as 20 days in the minors equals lost year. If Cots is right then Hardricourt has it wrong.

 

According to Cots...

 

"Under the CBA, 1 year of service is defined as 172 days. A player may earn up to 172 days of Major League service during a championship season (regular season), which generally lasts 183 calendar days. If a player is sent to the minor leagues on optional assignment for a total of 20 days or less during a season, he receives service time for the entire season."

 

Note it says if 20 days or less, the player gets credit for the full year. Being in AAA through 8/31 and being recalled 9/1 would mean 20 days in the minors including today and if Cots is correct keep JJ's service year in tact.

 

Anyway, here's the possibly erroneous TH blog entry...

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/53078827.html#comments

[JJHardy7]

Again though, why is 9/1 this magical date? I think it's a moot point.

[Brewer Fever]

Again though, why is 9/1 this magical date? I think it's a moot point.

For one, that's when rosters expand and you no longer face the numbers crunch of having so many middle infielders on the roster. And two, it sounds like exactly what they're planning to do. I heard Macha on the pregame say they'll probably have JJ down there until the end of the month. I doubt it's a coincidence that he just happened to volunteer that it will likely be only until the end of August, especially since that info wasn't solicited in the question asked.

[Ennder]

No reason they can't bring players up 09/02 though. They don't always do it on the 1st. Just because Sept 1st is the 20th day doesn't mean he won't come up the 2nd after 21 days is the point I think.

[Brewer Fever]

No reason they can't bring players up 09/02 though. They don't always do it on the 1st. Just because Sept 1st is the 20th day doesn't mean he won't come up the 2nd after 21 days is the point I think.

Of course. And they could wait until the 3rd or 4th too. But putting 2 and 2 together and listening to what Brewers brass has been saying it seems pretty likely that he's back here on 9/1.

[JJHardy7]

No reason they can't bring players up 09/02 though. They don't always do it on the 1st. Just because Sept 1st is the 20th day doesn't mean he won't come up the 2nd after 21 days is the point I think.

Exactly. They 'expanded' the rosters for the Brewers on the 2nd last year....not the 1st. Not every team shifts every player on the 40-man on 9/1. I know for JJ it doesn't fit the bill, but guys not on the 40-man could still be playing everyday at that point...I'd much rather prefer that instead of seeing the guys get a handful of at-bats the entire month of September. I know the Brewers will probably just sign a ton of free agents and such come beginning of September for back fill, but having regular season games through the 7th means that a guy like Salome would potentially start 7 games instead of riding the pine in Milwaukee for 7 days (I'm not trying to bring up the catcher debate...hopefully it's just a simple example).

[Brewer Fever]

Are we still at the point of not realizing the crap storm it would stir up if the Brewers were to intentionally wait one extra day or two to bring him back up just to put off his FA for a year. A grievance would probably be filed and it would definitely hurt the Brewers reputation with players, agents, and union leaders. Not something needed by a team that already has a hard enough time establishing itself as a go-to destination for players.

 

Expect JJ back in the majors by September 1 at the latest.

[kramnoj]

The Brewers have the 31st off, then start a 3 game series in St Louis on the 1st, then are home on the 4th. Don't know if that will have any impact on when players get called up.

[endaround]

A grievance could be filed and it would lose. Hardy hasn't hit. They could send to Arizona for a week after the season to check on thingsor say wait until the Brewers return from their 1 city road trip on the 1st-3rd. This isn't going to cost Hardy that much even if he loses a year, much less than his season missed to injury cost him.

[Brewer Fever]

A grievance could be filed and it would lose. Hardy hasn't hit. They could send to Arizona for a week after the season to check on thingsor say wait until the Brewers return from their 1 city road trip on the 1st-3rd. This isn't going to cost Hardy that much even if he loses a year, much less than his season missed to injury cost him.

Fine, just ignore the black mark it would give the organization with players, agents and the union.

[endaround]

What black mark? This isn't anywhere close to what Detroit has done to Ordonez, do you think Detroit is suddenly going to be blacklisted?

[Brewer Fever]

Btw, if what I just read is true, that a player accrues service time through the date of assignment, then the clock doesn't even start until tomorrow. That might mean that the Brewers could wait until 9/2 and JJ would still get his year.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even a big JJ fan. I've been hoping they'd go with Escobar for some time now. And I could care less about how this affects JJ personally. I am interested in clearing up the confusion about the rule and the timing regarding this move. And I definitely see a downside for the Brewers if they make an obvious attempt to put off a players free agency.

[JJHardy7]

Fine, just ignore the black mark it would give the organization with players, agents and the union.

What? There's no way that happens. The rules are the rules. The Brewers wouldn't be messing with them and JJ has had a bad year. He's also making his $$$ wherever he plays. The Brewers from what I've heard, read, etc extended long-term offers to Braun, Fielder, Hart, and JJ at some point and time. I don't know about other guys, but to the best of my knowledge that's true. Your argument would have more weight if they'd send down Fielder under the same circumstances.

Again, the Brewers very well could have a 'deal' with JJ. You'll start next year or we'll trade you. I think it should also be pointed out he comments JJ had that were posted here also aren't the most endearing from someone that is causing this big of a reaction. I'm sure he knows he stinks now. He actually might get paid more via arbitration than free agency at this rate....but that's another debate. IMO the Brewers have been a great organization (besides Macha) for a young guy to come in and succeed and then be rewarded or at least offered a reward. They were aggressive in calling up Hardy, Weeks, Braun, Yo, etc. Don't forget JJ's rookie year...he was terrible during parts of it yet still started.